Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why don't they understand that it's BECAUSE of your family legacy there that he doesn't want to go? There will be siblings or cousins who will go, so no worries, his generation of the family will be represented there.

I would encourage him to branch out.

But then I suspect that the reason you're all pressuring him is that you're afraid he won't get into an Ivy without his legacy status

OP here. This is not why at all. He intends to apply to places like HYS, other ivies etc anyway. He is a very competitive and accomplished kid in his own right, near the very top of his class. However, he hasn't won an international award or something super extraordinary to guarantee him admission at HYS. At Princeton our legacy status differentiates him from other similarly qualified kids. The other reason the family is pressuring him is that they want him to carry on the tradition, which I understand sounds outlandish to most. You need to understand that a family with such a long tradition in a specific school eventually develops a kind of warped perception of reality. For most of my family members it is as if there was no other college in the world other than Princeton.

I think the Dutch do during the World Cup

For you non-tigers, it's hard to appreciate the cult that Princeton is, even for non-legacies. Insulated campus, cheers and songs of old Nassau, bicker and the eating clubs and for the love of all that is holy, reunions. I mean does anyone else wear this much orange? Even Miami or Florida or UVA tone it down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.

As long as Princeton tolerates its remaining selective eating clubs (e.g., Cottage, Ivy, Cap & Gown, Tiger and Tower), its reputation for social exclusivity will remain intact. They shape the perception of Princeton in a way that the final clubs and secret societies do not at Harvard or Yale.

However, when I went there over 30 years ago, the number of students from the South was quite small in comparison to the number from NY, NJ, CT, PA, IL and CA. Most of the kids from VA were from NoVa or Richmond, with just a handful from other parts of the state. And the number from the Deep South was very small. I can't imagine that's changed.

The eating clubs that you mention are quite different from each other and lumping them together is a mistake. They have very different types of members and very different ways to choose members. I was a member of one of the clubs you denigrate. Our rush (we called it "bicker") process was totally devoid of hazing of any kind and was simply meant as a way to meet people. Our rush process produced a fairly diverse club in terms of race, sexual orientation, and socio-economic background. We also took everyone we could fit -- we didn't artificially reject people to be exclusive for the sake of exclusivity. This is very different from some of the other clubs where the bicker process is more questionable and it produces a more homogeneous group of members.

Let's say 120 people apply and the club can fit 100. What are the alternatives? You either have some sort of selection process or you just do a lottery. I can understand why some people prefer a lottery -- and if you don't want to bicker -- the other half of the clubs do use a lottery. But, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a selection process and such a process happens in many other aspects of society.

And, as an aside, Harvard and Yale actually have more of a secret society element on campus. There numbers are (pretty much by definition) smaller, but there you don't have an option of "non-selective" clubs which you do at Princeton.

You are splitting hairs. For a lot of prospective students, the idea of working hard enough in high school to get into Princeton and then still having to prove oneself socially by "bickering" at eating clubs that may turn you away is a real turn-off. Even if you don't bicker, just knowing that a large number of your classmates are comfortable with that system is quite off-putting. And the fact that some clubs, like yours, don't attract as much interest doesn't really change the analysis.

The four-year residential colleges at Yale are much more inclusive. Princeton will never truly be able to compete with Harvard and Yale until the selective eating clubs are disbanded.

[Anonymous]

The entitlement of these kids - i have met Princeton parents who told me that their second kid had told them that the one college their second kid wont go to is the ivy the first kid is at. Really? When one has legacies/$$$, i guess one can be so snobbish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.

As long as Princeton tolerates its remaining selective eating clubs (e.g., Cottage, Ivy, Cap & Gown, Tiger and Tower), its reputation for social exclusivity will remain intact. They shape the perception of Princeton in a way that the final clubs and secret societies do not at Harvard or Yale.

However, when I went there over 30 years ago, the number of students from the South was quite small in comparison to the number from NY, NJ, CT, PA, IL and CA. Most of the kids from VA were from NoVa or Richmond, with just a handful from other parts of the state. And the number from the Deep South was very small. I can't imagine that's changed.

The eating clubs that you mention are quite different from each other and lumping them together is a mistake. They have very different types of members and very different ways to choose members. I was a member of one of the clubs you denigrate. Our rush (we called it "bicker") process was totally devoid of hazing of any kind and was simply meant as a way to meet people. Our rush process produced a fairly diverse club in terms of race, sexual orientation, and socio-economic background. We also took everyone we could fit -- we didn't artificially reject people to be exclusive for the sake of exclusivity. This is very different from some of the other clubs where the bicker process is more questionable and it produces a more homogeneous group of members.

Let's say 120 people apply and the club can fit 100. What are the alternatives? You either have some sort of selection process or you just do a lottery. I can understand why some people prefer a lottery -- and if you don't want to bicker -- the other half of the clubs do use a lottery. But, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a selection process and such a process happens in many other aspects of society.

And, as an aside, Harvard and Yale actually have more of a secret society element on campus. There numbers are (pretty much by definition) smaller, but there you don't have an option of "non-selective" clubs which you do at Princeton.

You are splitting hairs. For a lot of prospective students, the idea of working hard enough in high school to get into Princeton and then still having to prove oneself socially by "bickering" at eating clubs that may turn you away is a real turn-off. Even if you don't bicker, just knowing that a large number of your classmates are comfortable with that system is quite off-putting. And the fact that some clubs, like yours, don't attract as much interest doesn't really change the analysis.

The four-year residential colleges at Yale are much more inclusive. Princeton will never truly be able to compete with Harvard and Yale until the selective eating clubs are disbanded.

I am not splitting hairs at all. Your argument that the whole school is off putting as long as there are some selective organizations is absurd. Every school has organizations that you have to apply to in some form or another. Virtually every fraternity or sorority in the country has an admissions process of some sort that is not purely random like a lottery. Many other types of clubs are not open to anyone that is interested and there is some form of selection.

It is incredibly odd that you hold Harvard and Yale out as better on this front. They each have selective social clubs. The Harvard "Finals Clubs" are someone similar to Princeton's eating clubs except at Harvard there are NO clubs that are simply open via lottery. If you want to participate, you have to go through a rush type process. In contrast, more than half of the eating clubs at Princeton are open to anyone who wants to join and the only reason someone would be rejected is if there isn't space and you get a crappy lottery number. There is absolutely no reason that someone should find it "off putting" that some of their classmates choose clubs that are not open -- just as I don't find it off putting if some of my friends or co-workers choose to apply to country clubs (or any other non-public institution) even though I have no interest.

[Anonymous]

My argument isn't absurd at all. It's both common sense and consistent with the clear preference that dual admits have for Harvard and Yale over Princeton as well as the greater number of applications that Columbia and several other Ivies also receive. The selective eating clubs are a scourge that reinforce the school's country-club reputation. They'd be long gone but for the older alumni who'd cease to donate if the administration did away with Bicker.

[Anonymous]

I'd at least require it as a safety school.

We have two legacy schools in our family (my side and then DH's side) and DD isn't particularly interested in either. She'll definitely get into both if she applies because like you said, relatives who knew they had a university to go to and didn't even try in HS have gotten in off their legacy status.

We've told her it's fine if she doesn't want to go to either, but she must apply to both as safety schools. She can apply to other safety schools as well. We visit both schools so often for sporting and other events that she feels like she's been "going there" for years.

[Anonymous]

Your child will be 18 and an adult. Let him make his own decisions. You can't control your children's lives once they are adults.

If you force him to go to a school he doesn't want to he will always resent you and be mad at himself for caving.

[Anonymous]

You may be surprised if the safety school turns out not to be so safe if your kid doesn’t apply EA or ED. Depends on the school, but some favor legacies who favor them. Might be worth finding out (if you don’t already know) whether family members who were admitted applied early.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My argument isn't absurd at all. It's both common sense and consistent with the clear preference that dual admits have for Harvard and Yale over Princeton as well as the greater number of applications that Columbia and several other Ivies also receive. The selective eating clubs are a scourge that reinforce the school's country-club reputation. They'd be long gone but for the older alumni who'd cease to donate if the administration did away with Bicker.

"scourge"??? You must really be bitter about getting hosed back in the day. Given how much fun you seem, you probably would have gotten rejected from whatever selective organization -- finals club, fraternity/sorority, etc -- you would have tried to join if you happened to attend somewhere else. If you had simply signed into Charter, everything could have worked out fine.

Plus, even if you were right that Princeton is somehow falling behind its peers, it is quite a stretch to say that Princeton's demise is the result of selective eating clubs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My argument isn't absurd at all. It's both common sense and consistent with the clear preference that dual admits have for Harvard and Yale over Princeton as well as the greater number of applications that Columbia and several other Ivies also receive. The selective eating clubs are a scourge that reinforce the school's country-club reputation. They'd be long gone but for the older alumni who'd cease to donate if the administration did away with Bicker.

"scourge"??? You must really be bitter about getting hosed back in the day. Given how much fun you seem, you probably would have gotten rejected from whatever selective organization -- finals club, fraternity/sorority, etc -- you would have tried to join if you happened to attend somewhere else. If you had simply signed into Charter, everything could have worked out fine.

Plus, even if you were right that Princeton is somehow falling behind its peers, it is quite a stretch to say that Princeton's demise is the result of selective eating clubs.

NP. Princeton has the highest acceptance rate of the HYPC Ivies.

[Anonymous]

Princeton is ranked No 1 on uSNWR pp and has been for several years

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My argument isn't absurd at all. It's both common sense and consistent with the clear preference that dual admits have for Harvard and Yale over Princeton as well as the greater number of applications that Columbia and several other Ivies also receive. The selective eating clubs are a scourge that reinforce the school's country-club reputation. They'd be long gone but for the older alumni who'd cease to donate if the administration did away with Bicker.

"scourge"??? You must really be bitter about getting hosed back in the day. Given how much fun you seem, you probably would have gotten rejected from whatever selective organization -- finals club, fraternity/sorority, etc -- you would have tried to join if you happened to attend somewhere else. If you had simply signed into Charter, everything could have worked out fine.

Plus, even if you were right that Princeton is somehow falling behind its peers, it is quite a stretch to say that Princeton's demise is the result of selective eating clubs.

NP. Princeton has the highest acceptance rate of the HYPC Ivies.

Columbia booster spotted. Nice try. There is no such thing as HYPC. Columbia gets disproportionately many applications because of its location. When it comes to yield, cross admits and prestige Columbia is not at HYP level, it is a few notches below along with Penn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Princeton is ranked No 1 on uSNWR pp and has been for several years

That doesnt make much difference. People still choose Harvard and Stanford over Princeton. Yale too I think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
NP. Princeton has the highest acceptance rate of the HYPC Ivies.

Columbia booster spotted. Nice try. There is no such thing as HYPC. Columbia gets disproportionately many applications because of its location. When it comes to yield, cross admits and prestige Columbia is not at HYP level, it is a few notches below along with Penn.

Omg hahaha Columbia people are such strivers. Check this out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABig_Three_(universities)

"Lotsofissues has removed HYPC, stating that "I can't find a single instance of use, likely attempt by Columbia student to associate school's name with big 3". I've searched, and I cannot find anything, either. Lotsofissues' hypothesis is corroborated by the fact that both of the IP addresses who have added this purported initialism, 160.39.145.62 (talk · contribs) and 160.39.147.127 (talk · contribs), are in the 160.39.0.0/16 netblock that is assigned to Columbia University. Uncle G 01:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)"

So apparently a Columbia student or affiliate was so desperate for Columbia to be considered on par with HYP that they made a HYPC acronym page on wikipedia. The page was promptly deleted of course because Columbia is simply not on par with HYP. Hilarious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My argument isn't absurd at all. It's both common sense and consistent with the clear preference that dual admits have for Harvard and Yale over Princeton as well as the greater number of applications that Columbia and several other Ivies also receive. The selective eating clubs are a scourge that reinforce the school's country-club reputation. They'd be long gone but for the older alumni who'd cease to donate if the administration did away with Bicker.

"scourge"??? You must really be bitter about getting hosed back in the day. Given how much fun you seem, you probably would have gotten rejected from whatever selective organization -- finals club, fraternity/sorority, etc -- you would have tried to join if you happened to attend somewhere else. If you had simply signed into Charter, everything could have worked out fine.

Plus, even if you were right that Princeton is somehow falling behind its peers, it is quite a stretch to say that Princeton's demise is the result of selective eating clubs.

Not bitter at all - after visiting Cottage and Ivy just a few times, I was sure that they weren't clubs that would welcome me as a member, and the feeling was mutual. That doesn't change the fact that the selective eating clubs are anachronisms that discourage many bright students from applying to Princeton or from accepting admissions offers. Just about every recent president would have liked to disband them, but the resistance from some alumni is too strong. It doesn't mean Princeton isn't a good university, but when I later visited Yale - to which I had not applied - it was striking how much more open it felt in comparison. If OP's kid has picked up on this, it's no surprise he isn't anxious to bleed orange and black.