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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites.  Just saying. [/quote]

As long as Princeton tolerates its remaining selective eating clubs (e.g., Cottage, Ivy, Cap & Gown, Tiger and Tower), its reputation for social exclusivity will remain intact.  They shape the perception of Princeton in a way that the final clubs and secret societies do not at Harvard or Yale.

However, when I went there over 30 years ago, the number of students from the South was quite small in comparison to the number from NY, NJ, CT, PA, IL and CA.  Most of the kids from VA were from NoVa or Richmond, with just a handful from other parts of the state.  And the number from the Deep South was very small.  I can't imagine that's changed. [/quote]

The eating clubs that you mention are quite different from each other and lumping them together is a mistake.  They have very different types of members and very different ways to choose members.  I was a member of one of the clubs you denigrate.  Our rush (we called it "bicker") process was totally devoid of hazing of any kind and was simply meant as a way to meet people.  Our rush process produced a fairly diverse club in terms of race, sexual orientation, and socio-economic background.  We also took everyone we could fit -- we didn't artificially reject people to be exclusive for the sake of exclusivity.  This is very different from some of the other clubs where the bicker process is more questionable and it produces a more homogeneous group of members.

Let's say 120 people apply and the club can fit 100.  What are the alternatives?  You either have some sort of selection process or you just do a lottery.  I can understand why some people prefer a lottery -- and if you don't want to bicker -- the other half of the clubs do use  a lottery.  But, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a selection process and such a process happens in many other aspects of society.

And, as an aside, Harvard and Yale actually have more of a secret society element on campus.  There numbers are (pretty much by definition) smaller, but there you don't have an option of "non-selective" clubs which you do at Princeton.  [/quote]

You are splitting hairs.  For a lot of prospective students, the idea of working hard enough in high school to get into Princeton and then still having to prove oneself socially by "bickering" at eating clubs that may turn you away is a real turn-off. Even if you don't bicker, just knowing that a large number of your classmates are comfortable with that system is quite off-putting. And the fact that some clubs, like yours, don't attract as much interest doesn't really change the analysis.

The four-year residential colleges at Yale are much more inclusive. Princeton will never truly be able to compete with Harvard and Yale until the selective eating clubs are disbanded.[/quote]

I am not splitting hairs at all.  Your argument that the whole school is off putting as long as there are some selective organizations is absurd.  Every school has organizations that you have to apply to in some form or another.  Virtually every fraternity or sorority in the country has an admissions process of some sort that is not purely random like a lottery.  Many other types of clubs are not open to anyone that is interested and there is some form of selection.

It is incredibly odd that you hold Harvard and Yale out as better on this front.  They each have selective social clubs.  The Harvard "Finals Clubs" are someone similar to Princeton's eating clubs except at Harvard there are NO clubs that are simply open via lottery.  If you want to participate, you have to go through a rush type process.  In contrast, more than half of the eating clubs at Princeton are open to anyone who wants to join and the only reason someone would be rejected is if there isn't space and you get a crappy lottery number.  There is absolutely no reason that someone should find it "off putting" that some of their classmates choose clubs that are not open -- just as I don't find it off putting if some of my friends or co-workers choose to apply to country clubs (or any other non-public institution) even though I have no interest.[/quote]

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