If you are an atheist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:A couple of thoughts about this thread, to which I was one of the first responders. I read the first few pages, in which the bulk of actual responses to the original question were fairly similar to mine, but most of the discussion revolved around a zealot who can't get beyond the egocentric belief that anyone who does not share his/her beliefs will rot in Hell.

So I skipped to the end and found an interesting discussion of Arabic terms. The comment I like best is that the Arabic term for God, Allah, is a gender-free term. That is truly rational, since sex only makes sense when both male and female exist, not in a one-of-a-kind being.

If you had read the intervening pages, you would know that the people who know a decent amount about Islam, including an ex-Muslim, are pretty disgusted with the misrepresentations and behavior by this poster. But don't let the rest of this thread get in the way of your sanctimony....

Looks like you're still angry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a better understanding of the Arabic language you should consult a good book on Arabic etymology. The Arabic language is very complex and it is advisable that you consult a specialist in the language when trying to affirm or negate certain meanings.

but again, we've already been through the discussion of meanings of words, just for example,

"Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich."

Udhiya is simply a singular of Dahyyaat. Udhuwa is the same word as Udhiya. Also, Deheya or Deheyya also means Udhiya. In the Arabic grammar, depending on the position of the word in the sentence, we sometimes substitute the pronunciation of the "y" with a "w". Udhiya and Udhuwa are not two different words. They are the same word. The Arabic word "dahaha" is derived from the root word "dahya" which literally means "egg". Udhuwa is the reference to "dahya". In Arabic, words that are referenced are sometimes written differently. Udhuwa and "dahya" are written differently, but they mean the same word.

Great. But then why do Muslim sources say "flat"? It would also be nice to see a cite to actual usage, but not the evangelizing cite.

There is a pretty extensive wikipedia page that consolidates the argument for & against. By appearances, it looks as though the "the Earth is an ostrich egg" is a post-dated rationalization. Sorry Muslim poster.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur'an

I really wouldn't go with Wikipedia, lol, again like i said previously anyone can go on wikipedia and write everything they want , just like anyone can go online and write anything they want. What I wnt to know is what muslim scholar hs come out and say the earth is flat?

The wikipedia article is completely sourced to actual, reputable sources. Where are your sources? Other than Muslim evangelical websites? Frankly, it doesn't matter which Muslim scholar comes out and says the Earth is flat. The point is the Quran says so (unless you're torturing the meaning of the individual words beyond meaning).

Furthermore, as I posted up-thread, there was a pretty clear scientific consensus at the time that the Earth was not flat. So even if the Quran got it "right" it's not particularly impressive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a better understanding of the Arabic language you should consult a good book on Arabic etymology. The Arabic language is very complex and it is advisable that you consult a specialist in the language when trying to affirm or negate certain meanings.

but again, we've already been through the discussion of meanings of words, just for example,

"Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich."

Udhiya is simply a singular of Dahyyaat. Udhuwa is the same word as Udhiya. Also, Deheya or Deheyya also means Udhiya. In the Arabic grammar, depending on the position of the word in the sentence, we sometimes substitute the pronunciation of the "y" with a "w". Udhiya and Udhuwa are not two different words. They are the same word. The Arabic word "dahaha" is derived from the root word "dahya" which literally means "egg". Udhuwa is the reference to "dahya". In Arabic, words that are referenced are sometimes written differently. Udhuwa and "dahya" are written differently, but they mean the same word.

Great. But then why do Muslim sources say "flat"? It would also be nice to see a cite to actual usage, but not the evangelizing cite.

There is a pretty extensive wikipedia page that consolidates the argument for & against. By appearances, it looks as though the "the Earth is an ostrich egg" is a post-dated rationalization. Sorry Muslim poster.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur'an

I really wouldn't go with Wikipedia, lol, again like i said previously anyone can go on wikipedia and write everything they want , just like anyone can go online and write anything they want. What I wnt to know is what muslim scholar hs come out and say the earth is flat?

The wikipedia article is completely sourced to actual, reputable sources. Where are your sources? Other than Muslim evangelical websites? Frankly, it doesn't matter which Muslim scholar comes out and says the Earth is flat. The point is the Quran says so (unless you're torturing the meaning of the individual words beyond meaning).

Furthermore, as I posted up-thread, there was a pretty clear scientific consensus at the time that the Earth was not flat. So even if the Quran got it "right" it's not particularly impressive.

I am sorry but the Quran does not say that the earth is flat, I have given you the arabic word that is used in that verse and you are free to go open an arabic dictionary and look up the meaning of that word, thats pretty easy to do and is very simple, we don't need wikipedia for that. And I am not trying to make it like the Quran got it right so its impressive?? I was barely just answering to your question, to be honest with you I am more at awe at other things said in the Quran besides the shape of the earth.

[Anonymous]

Furthermore, the wikipedia article that you posted does not say the Quran said the earth is flat, it actually gives you all the definitions of the word that is used in that verse . Did you actually read that article?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:A couple of thoughts about this thread, to which I was one of the first responders. I read the first few pages, in which the bulk of actual responses to the original question were fairly similar to mine, but most of the discussion revolved around a zealot who can't get beyond the egocentric belief that anyone who does not share his/her beliefs will rot in Hell.

So I skipped to the end and found an interesting discussion of Arabic terms. The comment I like best is that the Arabic term for God, Allah, is a gender-free term. That is truly rational, since sex only makes sense when both male and female exist, not in a one-of-a-kind being.

If you had read the intervening pages, you would know that the people who know a decent amount about Islam, including an ex-Muslim, are pretty disgusted with the misrepresentations and behavior by this poster. But don't let the rest of this thread get in the way of your sanctimony....

But then, Takoma is the poster who 2-3 days ago write that the statement "Jesus and MLK renounce you" when directed at a Christian was perfectly reasonable and untrollish. I guess if the nastiness is coming from a Christian it is zealotry, but if it's coming from any type of non-Christian or atheist, then it's totally rational and reasonable. I guess the "reasonable" thing is to discount everything Takona says by 25%. I live in Takoma and love it, but sometimes I have to cringe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a better understanding of the Arabic language you should consult a good book on Arabic etymology. The Arabic language is very complex and it is advisable that you consult a specialist in the language when trying to affirm or negate certain meanings.

but again, we've already been through the discussion of meanings of words, just for example,

"Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich."

Udhiya is simply a singular of Dahyyaat. Udhuwa is the same word as Udhiya. Also, Deheya or Deheyya also means Udhiya. In the Arabic grammar, depending on the position of the word in the sentence, we sometimes substitute the pronunciation of the "y" with a "w". Udhiya and Udhuwa are not two different words. They are the same word. The Arabic word "dahaha" is derived from the root word "dahya" which literally means "egg". Udhuwa is the reference to "dahya". In Arabic, words that are referenced are sometimes written differently. Udhuwa and "dahya" are written differently, but they mean the same word.

Great. But then why do Muslim sources say "flat"? It would also be nice to see a cite to actual usage, but not the evangelizing cite.

There is a pretty extensive wikipedia page that consolidates the argument for & against. By appearances, it looks as though the "the Earth is an ostrich egg" is a post-dated rationalization. Sorry Muslim poster.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur'an

I really wouldn't go with Wikipedia, lol, again like i said previously anyone can go on wikipedia and write everything they want , just like anyone can go online and write anything they want. What I wnt to know is what muslim scholar hs come out and say the earth is flat?

The wikipedia article is completely sourced to actual, reputable sources. Where are your sources? Other than Muslim evangelical websites? Frankly, it doesn't matter which Muslim scholar comes out and says the Earth is flat. The point is the Quran says so (unless you're torturing the meaning of the individual words beyond meaning).

Furthermore, as I posted up-thread, there was a pretty clear scientific consensus at the time that the Earth was not flat. So even if the Quran got it "right" it's not particularly impressive.

I am sorry but the Quran does not say that the earth is flat, I have given you the arabic word that is used in that verse and you are free to go open an arabic dictionary and look up the meaning of that word, thats pretty easy to do and is very simple, we don't need wikipedia for that. And I am not trying to make it like the Quran got it right so its impressive?? I was barely just answering to your question, to be honest with you I am more at awe at other things said in the Quran besides the shape of the earth.

No, I understand you think the Quran doesn't say the Earth is flat. I wasn't trying to convince you. I was just adding the link to the extensive refutation of that point. So that the folks reading who aren't theologically wedded to the outcome one way or the other.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur'an

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:A couple of thoughts about this thread, to which I was one of the first responders. I read the first few pages, in which the bulk of actual responses to the original question were fairly similar to mine, but most of the discussion revolved around a zealot who can't get beyond the egocentric belief that anyone who does not share his/her beliefs will rot in Hell.

So I skipped to the end and found an interesting discussion of Arabic terms. The comment I like best is that the Arabic term for God, Allah, is a gender-free term. That is truly rational, since sex only makes sense when both male and female exist, not in a one-of-a-kind being.

If you had read the intervening pages, you would know that the people who know a decent amount about Islam, including an ex-Muslim, are pretty disgusted with the misrepresentations and behavior by this poster. But don't let the rest of this thread get in the way of your sanctimony....

Looks like you're still angry

Looks like you need to grow up. Stop it already, you claim to be representing an entire faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

No, I understand you think the Quran doesn't say the Earth is flat. I wasn't trying to convince you. I was just adding the link to the extensive refutation of that point. So that the folks reading who aren't theologically wedded to the outcome one way or the other.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur'an

Thank you from the rest of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Furthermore, the wikipedia article that you posted does not say the Quran said the earth is flat, it actually gives you all the definitions of the word that is used in that verse . Did you actually read that article?

I did. And yes, it does say that the Quran said the Earth is flat.

PP claimed:

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth.

But that is actually not the case.

Take the word mentioned to mean egg of an ostrich, "Duhiya". This word is not a root. It is a noun and is derived from "da-ha-wa", the same root that the verb "dahaha" comes from. Furthermore, Duhiya does not even mean the egg of an ostrich.

You don't need a Quran scholar. What you need is an Arabic linguist.

[Anonymous]

Oh, and while dahaha can carry the connotation of "egg-shaped", it's egg-shaped in the sense of something that has been rolled-out. So not "round and flattened" like an oblate spheroid. "Round and flattened" like a pita bread.

As I said earlier, it's not really relevant one way or the other--aside from to those who have a stake in the inerrancy of their holy texts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Furthermore, the wikipedia article that you posted does not say the Quran said the earth is flat, it actually gives you all the definitions of the word that is used in that verse . Did you actually read that article?

I did. And yes, it does say that the Quran said the Earth is flat.

PP claimed:

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth.

But that is actually not the case.

Take the word mentioned to mean egg of an ostrich, "Duhiya". This word is not a root. It is a noun and is derived from "da-ha-wa", the same root that the verb "dahaha" comes from. Furthermore, Duhiya does not even mean the egg of an ostrich.

You don't need a Quran scholar. What you need is an Arabic linguist.

I already gave you the etymology of the word in one of my previous posts. You can google the word and read all the definitions about it and yes Arabs use that word to mean the egg of an ostrich, I would know that. No you don't need a Quran Scholar, but you definitely need an Arabic linguist, not Wikipedia. WHAT i really dont understand is why you are trying to convince me that the Quranic text says flat while I have the Quran with me , there is only one quran in the world, the arabic version has been the same for over 1400 years and it doesn't say FLAT, so you can tell me wikipedia says it is flat a hundred times it wont change that I know for a fact and everyone who reads the Quran knows that it is just not true

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the same thing happens as before you are conceived, i.e. nothing.

If there is a God? To be honest, I find the idea of god as conceived by religious people to be so untenable that I don't spend any time worrying about it. But certainly I believe I have lived my life with as much integrity and generosity as most religious people.

Well, it is not about living you life with much integrity, it is about accepting his existence. The very fact that you deny Him is the biggest lack of integrity....

This is one of the most stupid comments I've ever seen. What does believing in a "god", for which there is no proof, have to do with integrity?

There is proof you are proof the fact that your every atom in your body works perfectly without your behind doing anything to make it so is proof that there is a God controlling everything. You think, this just happened by accident?? Really??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:A couple of thoughts about this thread, to which I was one of the first responders. I read the first few pages, in which the bulk of actual responses to the original question were fairly similar to mine, but most of the discussion revolved around a zealot who can't get beyond the egocentric belief that anyone who does not share his/her beliefs will rot in Hell.

So I skipped to the end and found an interesting discussion of Arabic terms. The comment I like best is that the Arabic term for God, Allah, is a gender-free term. That is truly rational, since sex only makes sense when both male and female exist, not in a one-of-a-kind being.

If you had read the intervening pages, you would know that the people who know a decent amount about Islam, including an ex-Muslim, are pretty disgusted with the misrepresentations and behavior by this poster. But don't let the rest of this thread get in the way of your sanctimony....

Looks like you're still angry

Looks like you need to grow up. Stop it already, you claim to be representing an entire faith.

No I dont., show me again the post where I said i represent an entire faith?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and while dahaha can carry the connotation of "egg-shaped", it's egg-shaped in the sense of something that has been rolled-out. So not "round and flattened" like an oblate spheroid. "Round and flattened" like a pita bread.

As I said earlier, it's not really relevant one way or the other--aside from to those who have a stake in the inerrancy of their holy texts.

Okay, like really? LOL. You do know that people actually spend years studying to understand Ancient Arabic? Maybe you can wikipedia "Arabic in the Quran". What you just wrote makes zero sense, and shows that you do not speak arabic. I really dont have the energy to try to convince you that a blue pen is blue if all your eyes want to see is green, it is a moot point!

[Anonymous]

I have a question for the Muslim poster. Your posts on this thread, that 1. theNew Testament was made up to make religion look better, and 2. Christianity condones stoning, seem like pretty solid evidence that you've participated in some heavy and erroneous bashing of other religions on other threads. Would you mind pointing us in the direction of some of your other posts re other religions, so that members of those faiths can do the public service of fact checking?