If you are an atheist

[Anonymous]

takoma wrote:Thank you for the response, 11:30. Although the three reasons strike me as very articualte ways to "Because", they all seem to go to God the Creator -- of the universe, its order, and its creatures. Given that I am awed by all of that, I am happy to accept that you wish to call the unknowable reason for those wondrous things God, while I call it The Great Unknowable.

That still leaves me with my question of what gives people the idea that God who is responsible for all that exists would interfere with that great Master Plan to deal specifically with my cancer, my love life, or my ball game.

That people are amazed by God is fine with me; that they think they have a personal relationship -- that's the part I don't understand.

There is one simple answer of why He would interfere: because He loves you , wouldn't that be a good enough reason for you? Let's say you have a child, that child looks at you as the Greatest Being in their life, you are this accomplished adult that they can not measure up to and who has all these responsibilities, like earning a living, taking care of the bills, the house, ect.. but despite all of that, you will still have time for that little infant's needs, ailments, concerns. So if that is possible at a human level, why would it seem so inconceivable at the divine level? And it is not just us as human beings that He loves but His entire Creation. I can only respond from an Islamic perspective since thats what I believe in. But, He told us : 'I treat My servant as he hopes that I would treat him. I am with him whenever he remembers Me: if he remembers Me in his heart, I remember him in My heart; if he remembers Me in a gathering, I remember him in a gathering far better than that gathering; if he draws near to Me a hand's span, I draw near to him an arm's length; if he draws near to Me an arm's length; and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running"

Allah also divided Mercy in one-hundred parts and He retained its ninety-nine parts with Him, and sent down its one part on the earth, and because of this one single part there is mutual love among the creatures to the extent that even the mare lifts up its hoof from its baby, fearing that it might harm it. Let us think of all the love in this world; be it between a mother and child, a husband and wife, a brother and sister, be it between animals and their young, be it between friends. All the love amongst these people and in this world comprises just one part out of seventy of Allah’s Mercy. A mother loves her children unconditionally, with no display. A mother loves her child whether the child is obedient or disobedient, honorable or dishonorable. After Allah, only a mother can love even the disobedient. This world likes the successful and good, but hates those who are hateful and disrespectful and rejects them. However, a mother is a mother and loves her children no matter is they are obedient or disobedient, kind or unkind. A mother cannot be separated from her child.

In a Hadith Qudsi , He also said, “I was a hidden treasure, and I wished that I be recognized, and this is why I created.” Hence the reason for creation was love. Allah created everything out of love, and therefore He loves what He has created. Subsequently He loves the believers even more intensely.

[Anonymous]

Opps I wasn't done.

On that same token, he love of God is also manifest in His mercy and blessings which He grants to those who deserve them as well as those who do not. But, it is particularly manifest in His willingness to forgive the sins of whomsoever turns to Him in sincere repentance. From the creation of Adam and Eve, repentance was granted to them to erase their sins as an example to all human beings who would follow them into this world. No matter how great human sins may become, the door for sincere repentance remains open until the last day of this world. Anas quoted God’s Messenger, as saying:

“God, the Almighty, has said: O son of Adam, as long as you call on Me and ask of Me, I will forgive what you have done, and I do not mind. O son of Adam, even if your sins reached the clouds and you asked My forgiveness, I will forgive you. O son of Adam, if you came to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and you met Me without giving Me partners, I will give you a similar amount of forgiveness.”
To reflect on the reality of God is to reflect on the infinite. And, as the mind boggles when it reflects on the limits of the finite universe and the galaxies and stars within it, it will be more confounded when it attempts to understand the uncreated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, I know you are not arguing that a ghost or a fairy created all of this? You're right that we can go around and around. Here's the thing we cannot prove to an atheists the existence of Allah (God). In fact we cannot prove the existence of God to anyone. We can at most find evidence to support our claims, but in the end it comes to "belief".

Why on Earth not? My point was that your presupposition of god or gods is completely arbitrary. People believe in God. People believe in fairies. We don't know what happened before the Big Bang. It's quite likely there's no such thing as "before". But your premise was that something had to create the Big Bang. You define that as "God", and then you go on to assign all sorts of attributes to this "God". But that doesn't follow. Rather than labeling this pre- Big Bang phenomenon "God" let's just call it "X" (or The Fairy, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster, or what have you).

Do you realize that adding just one new level of complexity to the system doesn't get you anywhere?

[Anonymous]

to 12:20

I don't see any evidence that "he" "loves" us. good things happen to some of us, some of the time, but really awful things happen to some people, whether or not they are devout followers of a religion.

A god isn't needed to explain what happens to humans.

[takoma]

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:Thank you for the response, 11:30. Although the three reasons strike me as very articualte ways to "Because", they all seem to go to God the Creator -- of the universe, its order, and its creatures. Given that I am awed by all of that, I am happy to accept that you wish to call the unknowable reason for those wondrous things God, while I call it The Great Unknowable.

That still leaves me with my question of what gives people the idea that God who is responsible for all that exists would interfere with that great Master Plan to deal specifically with my cancer, my love life, or my ball game.

That people are amazed by God is fine with me; that they think they have a personal relationship -- that's the part I don't understand.

There is one simple answer of why He would interfere: because He loves you , wouldn't that be a good enough reason for you? Let's say you have a child, that child looks at you as the Greatest Being in their life, you are this accomplished adult that they can not measure up to and who has all these responsibilities, like earning a living, taking care of the bills, the house, ect.. but despite all of that, you will still have time for that little infant's needs, ailments, concerns. So if that is possible at a human level, why would it seem so inconceivable at the divine level? And it is not just us as human beings that He loves but His entire Creation. I can only respond from an Islamic perspective since thats what I believe in. But, He told us : 'I treat My servant as he hopes that I would treat him. I am with him whenever he remembers Me: if he remembers Me in his heart, I remember him in My heart; if he remembers Me in a gathering, I remember him in a gathering far better than that gathering; if he draws near to Me a hand's span, I draw near to him an arm's length; if he draws near to Me an arm's length; and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running"

Allah also divided Mercy in one-hundred parts and He retained its ninety-nine parts with Him, and sent down its one part on the earth, and because of this one single part there is mutual love among the creatures to the extent that even the mare lifts up its hoof from its baby, fearing that it might harm it. Let us think of all the love in this world; be it between a mother and child, a husband and wife, a brother and sister, be it between animals and their young, be it between friends. All the love amongst these people and in this world comprises just one part out of seventy of Allah’s Mercy. A mother loves her children unconditionally, with no display. A mother loves her child whether the child is obedient or disobedient, honorable or dishonorable. After Allah, only a mother can love even the disobedient. This world likes the successful and good, but hates those who are hateful and disrespectful and rejects them. However, a mother is a mother and loves her children no matter is they are obedient or disobedient, kind or unkind. A mother cannot be separated from her child.

In a Hadith Qudsi , He also said, “I was a hidden treasure, and I wished that I be recognized, and this is why I created.” Hence the reason for creation was love. Allah created everything out of love, and therefore He loves what He has created. Subsequently He loves the believers even more intensely.

That's beautiful. I'm happy that you believe it and receive comfort. But, meaning no disrespect, that does not bring me one iota closer to sharing that belief. C'est la vie! The Universe is too great for me to think it worries about my fate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, I know you are not arguing that a ghost or a fairy created all of this? You're right that we can go around and around. Here's the thing we cannot prove to an atheists the existence of Allah (God). In fact we cannot prove the existence of God to anyone. We can at most find evidence to support our claims, but in the end it comes to "belief".

Why on Earth not? My point was that your presupposition of god or gods is completely arbitrary. People believe in God. People believe in fairies. We don't know what happened before the Big Bang. It's quite likely there's no such thing as "before". But your premise was that something had to create the Big Bang. You define that as "God", and then you go on to assign all sorts of attributes to this "God". But that doesn't follow. Rather than labeling this pre- Big Bang phenomenon "God" let's just call it "X" (or The Fairy, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster, or what have you).

Do you realize that adding just one new level of complexity to the system doesn't get you anywhere?

That's why I said, in the end it comes down to belief because we can not prove His Existence

[Anonymous]

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:Thank you for the response, 11:30. Although the three reasons strike me as very articualte ways to "Because", they all seem to go to God the Creator -- of the universe, its order, and its creatures. Given that I am awed by all of that, I am happy to accept that you wish to call the unknowable reason for those wondrous things God, while I call it The Great Unknowable.

That still leaves me with my question of what gives people the idea that God who is responsible for all that exists would interfere with that great Master Plan to deal specifically with my cancer, my love life, or my ball game.

That people are amazed by God is fine with me; that they think they have a personal relationship -- that's the part I don't understand.

There is one simple answer of why He would interfere: because He loves you , wouldn't that be a good enough reason for you? Let's say you have a child, that child looks at you as the Greatest Being in their life, you are this accomplished adult that they can not measure up to and who has all these responsibilities, like earning a living, taking care of the bills, the house, ect.. but despite all of that, you will still have time for that little infant's needs, ailments, concerns. So if that is possible at a human level, why would it seem so inconceivable at the divine level? And it is not just us as human beings that He loves but His entire Creation. I can only respond from an Islamic perspective since thats what I believe in. But, He told us : 'I treat My servant as he hopes that I would treat him. I am with him whenever he remembers Me: if he remembers Me in his heart, I remember him in My heart; if he remembers Me in a gathering, I remember him in a gathering far better than that gathering; if he draws near to Me a hand's span, I draw near to him an arm's length; if he draws near to Me an arm's length; and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running"

Allah also divided Mercy in one-hundred parts and He retained its ninety-nine parts with Him, and sent down its one part on the earth, and because of this one single part there is mutual love among the creatures to the extent that even the mare lifts up its hoof from its baby, fearing that it might harm it. Let us think of all the love in this world; be it between a mother and child, a husband and wife, a brother and sister, be it between animals and their young, be it between friends. All the love amongst these people and in this world comprises just one part out of seventy of Allah’s Mercy. A mother loves her children unconditionally, with no display. A mother loves her child whether the child is obedient or disobedient, honorable or dishonorable. After Allah, only a mother can love even the disobedient. This world likes the successful and good, but hates those who are hateful and disrespectful and rejects them. However, a mother is a mother and loves her children no matter is they are obedient or disobedient, kind or unkind. A mother cannot be separated from her child.

In a Hadith Qudsi , He also said, “I was a hidden treasure, and I wished that I be recognized, and this is why I created.” Hence the reason for creation was love. Allah created everything out of love, and therefore He loves what He has created. Subsequently He loves the believers even more intensely.

That's beautiful. I'm happy that you believe it and receive comfort. But, meaning no disrespect, that does not bring me one iota closer to sharing that belief. C'est la vie! The Universe is too great for me to think it worries about my fate.

I understand and was not trying to convince you, rather share my perspective and what my belief system is, but I totally understand if you do not share that belief. Il faut de tout pour un monde and He still cares about your fate

[takoma]

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...
In a Hadith Qudsi , He also said, “I was a hidden treasure, and I wished that I be recognized, and this is why I created.” Hence the reason for creation was love. Allah created everything out of love, and therefore He loves what He has created. Subsequently He loves the believers even more intensely.

That's beautiful. I'm happy that you believe it and receive comfort. But, meaning no disrespect, that does not bring me one iota closer to sharing that belief. C'est la vie! The Universe is too great for me to think it worries about my fate.

I understand and was not trying to convince you, rather share my perspective and what my belief system is, but I totally understand if you do not share that belief. Il faut de tout pour un monde and He still cares about your fate

When believers and non-believers accept and respect each other, nous avons un beau monde.

[Anonymous]

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...
In a Hadith Qudsi , He also said, “I was a hidden treasure, and I wished that I be recognized, and this is why I created.” Hence the reason for creation was love. Allah created everything out of love, and therefore He loves what He has created. Subsequently He loves the believers even more intensely.

That's beautiful. I'm happy that you believe it and receive comfort. But, meaning no disrespect, that does not bring me one iota closer to sharing that belief. C'est la vie! The Universe is too great for me to think it worries about my fate.

I understand and was not trying to convince you, rather share my perspective and what my belief system is, but I totally understand if you do not share that belief. Il faut de tout pour un monde and He still cares about your fate

When believers and non-believers accept and respect each other, nous avons un beau monde.

Quand certains acceptent seuls les musulmans evangeliques mais jamais les representants des autres religions mondiales, tout devient un plus moins beau....

[Anonymous]

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...
In a Hadith Qudsi , He also said, “I was a hidden treasure, and I wished that I be recognized, and this is why I created.” Hence the reason for creation was love. Allah created everything out of love, and therefore He loves what He has created. Subsequently He loves the believers even more intensely.

That's beautiful. I'm happy that you believe it and receive comfort. But, meaning no disrespect, that does not bring me one iota closer to sharing that belief. C'est la vie! The Universe is too great for me to think it worries about my fate.

I understand and was not trying to convince you, rather share my perspective and what my belief system is, but I totally understand if you do not share that belief. Il faut de tout pour un monde and He still cares about your fate

When believers and non-believers accept and respect each other, nous avons un beau monde.

Amen to that . I agree

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...
In a Hadith Qudsi , He also said, “I was a hidden treasure, and I wished that I be recognized, and this is why I created.” Hence the reason for creation was love. Allah created everything out of love, and therefore He loves what He has created. Subsequently He loves the believers even more intensely.

That's beautiful. I'm happy that you believe it and receive comfort. But, meaning no disrespect, that does not bring me one iota closer to sharing that belief. C'est la vie! The Universe is too great for me to think it worries about my fate.

I understand and was not trying to convince you, rather share my perspective and what my belief system is, but I totally understand if you do not share that belief. Il faut de tout pour un monde and He still cares about your fate

When believers and non-believers accept and respect each other, nous avons un beau monde.

Quand certains acceptent seuls les musulmans evangeliques mais jamais les representants des autres religions mondiales, tout devient un plus moins beau....

Ben, il faut de tout pour faire un monde, donc c'est important d'accepter les musulmans, chretiens, juifs, buddhistes, hindus, athées, etc . Ce qui fait la beaute de notre monde c'est que meme avec nos differences, nous pouvons apprendre les uns des autres et apprendre a nous connaitre respectueusement! Disons tous non a l'intolérance

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:to 12:20

I don't see any evidence that "he" "loves" us. good things happen to some of us, some of the time, but really awful things happen to some people, whether or not they are devout followers of a religion.

A god isn't needed to explain what happens to humans.

Sorry, I did not see your post. It is true that for centuries people have been asking, "Why, God, why?" when disaster strikes and also saying that if there really were a perfectly good, all-knowing, all-powerful God, then there would be no evil and suffering in the world. For believers, this life is both sacred and transitory to the next life, in which pleasure exists independent of suffering, and we will be recompensed for what was taken from us in this life.

The common picture we have in our minds is of the skeptic non-believer calmly presenting a logical, intellectual, and scientific argument while the religiously-inclined defendant becomes emotionally charged and tries to beat around the bush. However, the strength of this argument does not, in any way, have to do with logic or rationale but rather is emotionally charged to the core . Nor is it a new question. In fact, we find the angels asking something similar even before man was created: “When your Lord told the angels, ‘I am putting a deputy on earth,’ they said, ‘How can you put someone there who will cause damage and bloodshed, when we celebrate Your praise and proclaim Your holiness?’ but he said, ‘I know what you know not.’” Qur’an 2:30 In other words, God was asked, “Why would you allow this human, who will do bad things, to exist? Why not create someone who won’t do anything bad, like us?” The answer was, “I understand the wisdom in what I am doing, and you don’t.”


That, in a nutshell, is the answer to the so-called problem. There is no logical contradiction between God being Infinitely Good, Infinitely Powerful, and allowing bad things to happen.The rhetorical questions now change to inquisitive questions. Rather than blurting out, “How could God do that?! What kind of God does these things?!” the question now is “Why is the world this way and what wisdom lies in that?”

The first thing is, we have to go back to the premise and purpose of our existence:

1-This Life is a test :

Life is a test. Man has been given a limited free will to do good or bad. Look at the following statement of the Prophet: “The life of a believer is truly amazing. Everything that happens to him is good. If something pleasant happens to him, he is thankful and that is good for him. If something bad afflicts him, he is patient and that is also good for him.” Affliction is part of the test of life. If God were to interfere and prevent every bad thing from happening to each individual, it would be like taking the test away from a student. Saying that the bad that exists in the world is necessary does not mean that it is justified or praiseworthy. Believers are always commanded to enjoin the good and forbid the evil, which is another test in itself.

If you see a child about to be crushed by a car and you are in a position to stop this, then your test from Allah is that you stop it. If you choose not to then a sin will be on you, and the child will live in the eternal bliss of paradise. If you deny the existence of Allah then what you are saying is that people can get away with crimes that they commit if the fallible law system does not find them, and that innocent victims have lost their lives for no reason- in fact the innocent victim will find his reward with Allah. Another question we get is, why would God kill children, give them cancer, etc ect.. Do we know what that child would’ve become had he lived? Maybe he would’ve grown up to be a serial killer and by letting him die as a child God saved many innocent people. By assuming that every seemingly tragic event is not “humanly decent”, we blame God for not changing it. The supposition is that we know the outcome of every event and their interrelationships and that the “humanly decent” thing to is what? Save the child and let him become the serial killer.

2-Wisdom is behind the scenes:

Being able to see the big picture often affects how we perceive what is good and bad. Someone with little foresight may claim that the injection of a vaccine into a patient, which contains traces of disease, is a bad thing while the injection of heroin, which leads to euphoria, is a good thing. Not being able to understand that the vaccine will help develop immunity to that disease or that taking heroin will develop into a drug addiction is due to a lack of medical knowledge and experience.

God said:

“Do people think they will be left alone after saying, ‘We believe’ without being put to the test? We tested those who went before them: God will certainly mark out which ones are truthful and which are lying.” (Qur’an 29:2-3)

Another thing that we should note in a discussion of making sense of evil is that the intellect only comprehends matters in a confined set of parameters. What Surah Kahf teaches us is that God created the Universe in wisdom which may not be manifest to intellect nor understandable through system manifest law and order.

‘In other words, why doesn’t God have the simple human decency to do good deeds well within His reach?’ The simple answer to your question is He could if He wanted to. He could make it so that nothing bad ever happened, but even then, would non-beleivers believe?

The appreciation of ease and comfort could only exist and be appreciated if the feelings of hardship also existed and were known or experienced. In Chinese Philosophy, the concept of yin and yang is employed to explain this phenomenon. Each part is necessary to understand the unity of the whole. They are in equilibrium: if one disappears, the other must disappear as well, leaving emptiness.

[Anonymous]

I am reminded of similar questions about the dualism of predistination and free will answered by jeffery lang using the notion of God’s ability to be outside the time-space limits we are in. it is difficult to understand a God’s will who is not bound by the laws he has created or the grammar we use to gleam off the timeless messages he inspires in our heart, to bring us closer to him. that is the ultimate purpose of life. God’s forewarns us of a future by talking in past, or talks of a past that hasn’t happened yet, revealing His omnipotence, allowing humans only experiential knowledge of Divine providence.

He did not create anything for sports, as he reveals in the Quran, then why does He not interfere for the thousands of starving people or why does He choose a fragile mother of three to test in bagram, the belly of the beast so to speak? the answer is not simply one of experimental design, it is profoundly spiritual for both the sufferers and those who come to inflict it or witness it. I think the dichotomy of living a life that has unforseen consequences even if you did nothing yourself to earn your misery/reward, makes it all the more meaningful when you see yourself time-bound by an obligation to serve God, no matter what.

One more thing, the popular notion of good and evil is as per the perception of our material body: Good = what causes us comfort and pleasure; Evil = what causes us pain and suffering. Whereas, when you consider the soul, and a Creator beyond this material universe from which it came, and that material things in this universe at its smallest level are a function of natural laws of physics and thus mean nothing in themselves, then you will understand that Good = what brings a closer distance to Creator and; Evil = what takes us further from Creator.

It this way one would immediately see that no matter what happens in life then, whether extremely pleasurable or horrific, means nothing in itself, but its meaning can be good or evil depending on whether you use it to become closer or further from God.

I reflect on the many other living things in this world, many of which are threatened and killed or suffer in the millions either in natural cycles or by humans, all the insects and wildlife and grass and weeds and trees, and we consider this to be ‘natural laws’ – it is only humans who think of all living things we should be exempted from such natural laws, and when we go through the ups and downs experienced by every thing in nature, we think some of it is an ‘evil’ when it happens to us.

This is not to say that we should be cruel to one another, but just to point out that we don’t usually have perspective when we judge what is good and evil. Things like the Holocaust are undoubtedly evil, not actually because of the amount of suffering involved, but because they are things that were the result of so many people being so far from their Creator, and perhaps caused many more to die or survive in such distance as well. But for those who suffered who, because of their suffering became closer to their Creator and died in that state, surely for them despite the evil of their oppressors, they have obtained the greatest good, from exactly the same material event.

[takoma]

Not to have the last word, but just to let my worthy respondent know I have seen her/his words (assuming these were all from the same person) -- I have read and enjoyed them. And, as I think you probably expected, I still live in the I-don't-know camp of life explainers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Don't you fucking roll your eyes at me. Seriously, don't you do it.

I'm sorry I confused the pp with one of the atheists -- but I find it funny when atheists loudly proclaim their rejection of Him but then turn around and profess to have insight into what He believes.

You don't know anything about me. You called me un-Christian and an intolerant hypocrite. Based on what? A perfectly logical observation? Look, I'm sure this cognitive dissonance must be hard for you, but seriously, shut the fuck up, stop posting. And don't roll your fucking eyes at me.

Fucking idiot, you give Christians a bad name.