OMB trying to change guidance to no back pay

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP never worked in the public sector.

LOL privates sector

But thank you for the backup. I've never come across a federal worker who wants private sector work to be worse than it is, and a lot of us have agency missions that are supposed to make private sector work safer, fairer, better paid, and more stable.

It's really sad when people want to drag down federal workers just because their own jobs are crappy. We don't think your jobs should be crappy! We try to make them better! And public sector jobs are available to anyone who wants to apply so if you think they're cushy, c'mon over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i own a landscaping, construction company. If it rains, snows, etc and the jobs get cancelled, we don't get paid. The pay can then be made up by working longer hours, during weekends, etc. I want to pay them but if there is snow on the ground for two weeks, I cannot be solvent. Is inclement weather their fault? The guys work hard, have families to feed, etc and earn a fraction of what these lazy a$$ Feds earn so no I don't feel sorry. No work = no pay!

Emphasis added. The difference is that many furloughed feds (depends on agency) are not allowed to pick up another job while on furlough, because they can't get the ethics clearance. So no way to earn $ right now to cover the income loss.

And...once we return, I'm sure that there are many feds who would be happy to work overtime for extra pay once back at work (I don't count myself as one because I'm an attorney and thus regularly am "allowed" to work extra hours and on weekends without compensation). However, those federal employees will not be able to work overtime without approval, which can be very hard to get.

Can they work as delivery driver for Uber/door dash? I didn't know this. That's crazy. Not only FED have much lower salaries and now they can't pick up a second job? What's the incentive for working for the government then? I'm glad I never looked at the FED when I was looking for my first job. Sure I don't have job security but my salary at 35 $298k is higher than probably 80% of FED workers..and I also have great 401k match, health insurance and a good rotation program.

I can tell you haven’t looked for a government job. The GS-scale employees (the biggest chunk of feds) top out at $195,200, and that’s for someone like a lawyer with 25 years of experience. So your salary is 50% higher than perhaps 90+% of the federal workforce. And the job security is now worse, and the 401K match and health insurance are similar. You’re right. There’s little reason for a sensible person to apply for a fed job these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:i own a landscaping, construction company. If it rains, snows, etc and the jobs get cancelled, we don't get paid. The pay can then be made up by working longer hours, during weekends, etc. I want to pay them but if there is snow on the ground for two weeks, I cannot be solvent. Is inclement weather their fault? The guys work hard, have families to feed, etc and earn a fraction of what these lazy a$$ Feds earn so no I don't feel sorry. No work = no pay!

There’s a kernel of wisdom in this. If your employees can’t work because of circumstances beyond their control, they stay at home and then later can work longer hours, weekends etc and make up the difference.

In the 2018-19 shutdown, when we can back my group worked lots of overtime so that by May we were caught up for the 35 lost days. We didn’t get paid overtime because my agency doesn’t offer that. So being paid during the furlough is the only way we were fairly compensated for the extra, uncompensated work that we did during the months following the shutdown. If we don’t get back paid this time, why should we put in the overtime?

[Anonymous]

Can we stop pretending that Feds don’t get fired? My agency has been underfunded for years and we fire people. I had a coworker fired for poor performance. We can’t have poor performers because we operate on a shoestring budget and always have at least two openings on my team because pay is so much lower than private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i own a landscaping, construction company. If it rains, snows, etc and the jobs get cancelled, we don't get paid. The pay can then be made up by working longer hours, during weekends, etc. I want to pay them but if there is snow on the ground for two weeks, I cannot be solvent. Is inclement weather their fault? The guys work hard, have families to feed, etc and earn a fraction of what these lazy a$$ Feds earn so no I don't feel sorry. No work = no pay!

Emphasis added. The difference is that many furloughed feds (depends on agency) are not allowed to pick up another job while on furlough, because they can't get the ethics clearance. So no way to earn $ right now to cover the income loss.

And...once we return, I'm sure that there are many feds who would be happy to work overtime for extra pay once back at work (I don't count myself as one because I'm an attorney and thus regularly am "allowed" to work extra hours and on weekends without compensation). However, those federal employees will not be able to work overtime without approval, which can be very hard to get.

Can they work as delivery driver for Uber/door dash? I didn't know this. That's crazy. Not only FED have much lower salaries and now they can't pick up a second job? What's the incentive for working for the government then? I'm glad I never looked at the FED when I was looking for my first job. Sure I don't have job security but my salary at 35 $298k is higher than probably 80% of FED workers..and I also have great 401k match, health insurance and a good rotation program.

I can tell you haven’t looked for a government job. The GS-scale employees (the biggest chunk of feds) top out at $195,200, and that’s for someone like a lawyer with 25 years of experience. So your salary is 50% higher than perhaps 90+% of the federal workforce. And the job security is now worse, and the 401K match and health insurance are similar. You’re right. There’s little reason for a sensible person to apply for a fed job these days.

Which is incredibly sad because this country needs strong public servants. But yes, I wouldn't advise any young person to enter the federal government these days. The tradeoff of "less money in exchange for career stability and more rewarding work" is becoming far less favorable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gross. Russel Vought is the worst human being. Meanwhile when I flew into Dulles, TSA workers leaving their shifts were exchanging notes on which soup kitchen they could get a hot meal since they're not actually getting paid.

God bless America.

TSA workers dont consume soup...but nice try!

Yes. TSA workers don't consume soup or need food or a paycheck. /s They're just the servant class to the elites who are forced to work without pay during the shutdown.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we stop pretending that Feds don’t get fired? My agency has been underfunded for years and we fire people. I had a coworker fired for poor performance. We can’t have poor performers because we operate on a shoestring budget and always have at least two openings on my team because pay is so much lower than private.

What is the name of your agency?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:GovExec reporting that IRS told furloughed workers they would receive back pay.

That’s the standard language all furlough notices were using last week too. Now being used at IRS. The press is acting like this is some signal the admin has reversed course but they haven’t and they’ll still try to break the law regardless of words on paper.

[Anonymous]

This is obviously a really bad attempt at trolling on their part. Just the same as their threat of RIFs "any day now" that hasn't materialized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they don't back pay us, what happens with our back health insurance premiums that would normally be deducted once pay starts again? What if they RIF as threatened and there is no next paycheck? Are they going to give us debt letters? I can go without a couple paychecks, but going into debt while they make me stay home and possibly fire me is going to keep me up at night.

Relax, the sky isn’t falling.

This is really unhelpful. I work in an agency that was in the news for planning RIFs before the shutdown, in a central office rumored to be targeted. Financial planning for job loss is important.

+1 It's easy to say that when it doesn't affect you. No one would take it well if their job suddenly disappeared one day and they were told to wait indefinitely until management got their act together to decide to reinstate the job and paycheck. Federal workers aren't making huge salaries--a lot of people don't have savings to withstand the loss of a paycheck for several weeks (like the TSA workers mentioned upthread who are required to work and now going to soup kitchens).

Let's not exaggerate. Some people in the private sector have jobs that are subject to whatever hours their manager is willing to give them. Similarly, some companies will furlough employees, either following regular, seasonal patterns or in response to exceptional financial situations. But the latter is truly exceptional and almost always limited to a week or two (sometimes with an option to use paid leave).

But, of course, this has an impact on hiring and retention, particularly when they happen frequently or for extended periods. The argument for the lower compensation in professional government positions has typically been tied to stability. That justification doesn't work anymore.

Let's not misunderstand what the situation is, which you what you are doing. In the private sector, employees can furlough but they can not require people to come in and work without pay which is what the federal government can do. And essential employees can't even apply for unemployment insurance. If a furloughed federal employee opts to take a job during this furlough period, they need prior approval from their agency's ethics office, unlike a private sector employee, and good luck getting a timely response when everyone is furloughed.

The post I was responding to said:

"No one would take it well if their job suddenly disappeared one day and they were told to wait indefinitely until management got their act together to decide to reinstate the job and paycheck."

The fact is, yes, a lot of people do have jobs like that. No one likes it, but it isn't unique to furloughed feds. That doesn't make it OK, but some people come across out-of-touch when they make these comments.

Really? name one.

When I was in the private sector I had my pay temporarily reduced during the financial crisis. Of course I accepted that because I understood the firm was in a tough place. A federal employee furlough is a totally different scenario. And not that you asked but I also would accept a rational RIF done legally and compassionately as just something unfortunate that happened to me … but of course that what never what DOGE was about.

So yeah until you point to a private sector boss literally stating his intent was to “torture” his staff, you may kindly take a seat. The only thing that comes close is Elon’s sadism at Twitter!

Really? Almost any hourly service industry job, for one.

This is what I meant by some people sounding out-of-touch.

You’re comparing hourly service workers, of which I was one, to full time salaried positions? Fed jobs That in the majority of cases require at minimum a Bachelors degree and likely even a masters (mine does).
Try again.

You're completely missing my point. I'm a fed too, with a graduate degree in a STEM field in a highly in-demand field. I'm also a manager now, even before the current mess it has been very challenging to recruit and retain staff. You don't need to convince me what's going on isn't OK on multiple levels. I completely agree.

I also grew up relatively poor in a blue collar environment. Perhaps the messages from you and the other pp would come across differently in person, but I found the tone pretty off-putting and I think a lot of other people would, too.

I read, perhaps incorrectly, a tone suggesting that feds aren't just being treated unfairly, but that they're being treated uniquely unfairly. And while I think there's arguably some truth to that, I think it is unnecessary and inappropriate to dismiss the unfair treatment that other people face that have similar impacts. Bad things happening to others doesn't make it OK, nor does it diminish the significance of your own experiences. But suggesting it doesn't happen to others is going to be very off-putting to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they don't back pay us, what happens with our back health insurance premiums that would normally be deducted once pay starts again? What if they RIF as threatened and there is no next paycheck? Are they going to give us debt letters? I can go without a couple paychecks, but going into debt while they make me stay home and possibly fire me is going to keep me up at night.

Relax, the sky isn’t falling.

This is really unhelpful. I work in an agency that was in the news for planning RIFs before the shutdown, in a central office rumored to be targeted. Financial planning for job loss is important.

+1 It's easy to say that when it doesn't affect you. No one would take it well if their job suddenly disappeared one day and they were told to wait indefinitely until management got their act together to decide to reinstate the job and paycheck. Federal workers aren't making huge salaries--a lot of people don't have savings to withstand the loss of a paycheck for several weeks (like the TSA workers mentioned upthread who are required to work and now going to soup kitchens).

Let's not exaggerate. Some people in the private sector have jobs that are subject to whatever hours their manager is willing to give them. Similarly, some companies will furlough employees, either following regular, seasonal patterns or in response to exceptional financial situations. But the latter is truly exceptional and almost always limited to a week or two (sometimes with an option to use paid leave).

But, of course, this has an impact on hiring and retention, particularly when they happen frequently or for extended periods. The argument for the lower compensation in professional government positions has typically been tied to stability. That justification doesn't work anymore.

Let's not misunderstand what the situation is, which you what you are doing. In the private sector, employees can furlough but they can not require people to come in and work without pay which is what the federal government can do. And essential employees can't even apply for unemployment insurance. If a furloughed federal employee opts to take a job during this furlough period, they need prior approval from their agency's ethics office, unlike a private sector employee, and good luck getting a timely response when everyone is furloughed.

The post I was responding to said:

"No one would take it well if their job suddenly disappeared one day and they were told to wait indefinitely until management got their act together to decide to reinstate the job and paycheck."

The fact is, yes, a lot of people do have jobs like that. No one likes it, but it isn't unique to furloughed feds. That doesn't make it OK, but some people come across out-of-touch when they make these comments.

Really? name one.

When I was in the private sector I had my pay temporarily reduced during the financial crisis. Of course I accepted that because I understood the firm was in a tough place. A federal employee furlough is a totally different scenario. And not that you asked but I also would accept a rational RIF done legally and compassionately as just something unfortunate that happened to me … but of course that what never what DOGE was about.

So yeah until you point to a private sector boss literally stating his intent was to “torture” his staff, you may kindly take a seat. The only thing that comes close is Elon’s sadism at Twitter!

Really? Almost any hourly service industry job, for one.

This is what I meant by some people sounding out-of-touch.

You’re comparing hourly service workers, of which I was one, to full time salaried positions? Fed jobs That in the majority of cases require at minimum a Bachelors degree and likely even a masters (mine does).
Try again.

You're completely missing my point. I'm a fed too, with a graduate degree in a STEM field in a highly in-demand field. I'm also a manager now, even before the current mess it has been very challenging to recruit and retain staff. You don't need to convince me what's going on isn't OK on multiple levels. I completely agree.

I also grew up relatively poor in a blue collar environment. Perhaps the messages from you and the other pp would come across differently in person, but I found the tone pretty off-putting and I think a lot of other people would, too.

I read, perhaps incorrectly, a tone suggesting that feds aren't just being treated unfairly, but that they're being treated uniquely unfairly. And while I think there's arguably some truth to that, I think it is unnecessary and inappropriate to dismiss the unfair treatment that other people face that have similar impacts. Bad things happening to others doesn't make it OK, nor does it diminish the significance of your own experiences. But suggesting it doesn't happen to others is going to be very off-putting to them.

You showed up on a thread about feds on a message board geared at people in the DMV and you are now lecturing them for how they're talking about their very current, very bad problems. Talk about off-putting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they don't back pay us, what happens with our back health insurance premiums that would normally be deducted once pay starts again? What if they RIF as threatened and there is no next paycheck? Are they going to give us debt letters? I can go without a couple paychecks, but going into debt while they make me stay home and possibly fire me is going to keep me up at night.

Relax, the sky isn’t falling.

This is really unhelpful. I work in an agency that was in the news for planning RIFs before the shutdown, in a central office rumored to be targeted. Financial planning for job loss is important.

+1 It's easy to say that when it doesn't affect you. No one would take it well if their job suddenly disappeared one day and they were told to wait indefinitely until management got their act together to decide to reinstate the job and paycheck. Federal workers aren't making huge salaries--a lot of people don't have savings to withstand the loss of a paycheck for several weeks (like the TSA workers mentioned upthread who are required to work and now going to soup kitchens).

Let's not exaggerate. Some people in the private sector have jobs that are subject to whatever hours their manager is willing to give them. Similarly, some companies will furlough employees, either following regular, seasonal patterns or in response to exceptional financial situations. But the latter is truly exceptional and almost always limited to a week or two (sometimes with an option to use paid leave).

But, of course, this has an impact on hiring and retention, particularly when they happen frequently or for extended periods. The argument for the lower compensation in professional government positions has typically been tied to stability. That justification doesn't work anymore.

Let's not misunderstand what the situation is, which you what you are doing. In the private sector, employees can furlough but they can not require people to come in and work without pay which is what the federal government can do. And essential employees can't even apply for unemployment insurance. If a furloughed federal employee opts to take a job during this furlough period, they need prior approval from their agency's ethics office, unlike a private sector employee, and good luck getting a timely response when everyone is furloughed.

The post I was responding to said:

"No one would take it well if their job suddenly disappeared one day and they were told to wait indefinitely until management got their act together to decide to reinstate the job and paycheck."

The fact is, yes, a lot of people do have jobs like that. No one likes it, but it isn't unique to furloughed feds. That doesn't make it OK, but some people come across out-of-touch when they make these comments.

Really? name one.

When I was in the private sector I had my pay temporarily reduced during the financial crisis. Of course I accepted that because I understood the firm was in a tough place. A federal employee furlough is a totally different scenario. And not that you asked but I also would accept a rational RIF done legally and compassionately as just something unfortunate that happened to me … but of course that what never what DOGE was about.

So yeah until you point to a private sector boss literally stating his intent was to “torture” his staff, you may kindly take a seat. The only thing that comes close is Elon’s sadism at Twitter!

Really? Almost any hourly service industry job, for one.

This is what I meant by some people sounding out-of-touch.

You’re comparing hourly service workers, of which I was one, to full time salaried positions? Fed jobs That in the majority of cases require at minimum a Bachelors degree and likely even a masters (mine does).
Try again.

You're completely missing my point. I'm a fed too, with a graduate degree in a STEM field in a highly in-demand field. I'm also a manager now, even before the current mess it has been very challenging to recruit and retain staff. You don't need to convince me what's going on isn't OK on multiple levels. I completely agree.

I also grew up relatively poor in a blue collar environment. Perhaps the messages from you and the other pp would come across differently in person, but I found the tone pretty off-putting and I think a lot of other people would, too.

I read, perhaps incorrectly, a tone suggesting that feds aren't just being treated unfairly, but that they're being treated uniquely unfairly. And while I think there's arguably some truth to that, I think it is unnecessary and inappropriate to dismiss the unfair treatment that other people face that have similar impacts. Bad things happening to others doesn't make it OK, nor does it diminish the significance of your own experiences. But suggesting it doesn't happen to others is going to be very off-putting to them.

You showed up on a thread about feds on a message board geared at people in the DMV and you are now lecturing them for how they're talking about their very current, very bad problems. Talk about off-putting.

You don't think other people are reading this thread? Or that people make similar statements other places?

[Anonymous]

“ Essential” who are working should 100% get paid - there should be a rainy day fund for this. Examples include active military and others deemed “dangerous essential”. Not right to pay for work performed in any book. However, those furloughed should not receive back pay. Yes..not their fault govt ran out of money but how is this different from a private employee who lays off employees for the same reason? We assume the loss of employment -why do Feds feel entitled to pay if their employee has no $$ to make payroll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“ Essential” who are working should 100% get paid - there should be a rainy day fund for this. Examples include active military and others deemed “dangerous essential”. Not right to pay for work performed in any book. However, those furloughed should not receive back pay. Yes..not their fault govt ran out of money but how is this different from a private employee who lays off employees for the same reason? We assume the loss of employment -why do Feds feel entitled to pay if their employee has no $$ to make payroll.

If you'd laid me off, I'd be due severance and I could work somewhere else. Right now I'm just locked out of my office, at my employer's choice, but they've told me to stick around in case they need something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ Essential” who are working should 100% get paid - there should be a rainy day fund for this. Examples include active military and others deemed “dangerous essential”. Not right to pay for work performed in any book. However, those furloughed should not receive back pay. Yes..not their fault govt ran out of money but how is this different from a private employee who lays off employees for the same reason? We assume the loss of employment -why do Feds feel entitled to pay if their employee has no $$ to make payroll.

If you'd laid me off, I'd be due severance and I could work somewhere else. Right now I'm just locked out of my office, at my employer's choice, but they've told me to stick around in case they need something.

Get real. Unemployment is peanuts. And nobody is hiring!! You are way better off furloughed and unable to work than laid off.