My kid is in a class with a chair thrower

[Anonymous]

I was a high school teacher. I had objects thrown at me by students. I had students get in my face and shout at me. I had students throw chairs/desks. I had a student break my computer on my desk and throw all my belongings that were on the desk around the room. My admin told me I wasn't good at classroom management and that this was all my fault that I needed to improve. I would send kids to the dean's office, which was what we were told to do w/ kids who were a discipline issue. Sometimes kids would actually go when I told them to, sometimes they wouldn't. Sometimes they'd go and the dean would send them right back to class 5 mins later. I quit.

No one supported me as a teacher. No one supported or protected the other students in these classes who consistently had their learning disrupted and their physical safety threatened at school. It's a horrible system. Now my own kids are in a public elementary. Luckily we haven't seen anything like this yet. If we do, we will address w/ admin one time and if not corrected, I'll be taking my kids out of school. I will not tolerate it at all.

As other PPs have said, it's all tied to funding. Special ed programs and alternative schooling programs for troubled kids are more expensive than having the kid stay in the 'mainstream' classroom. So admin typically does try to keep kids in the mainstream classroom as long as possible, meaning there may be multiple violent incidents before they are removed or they may never be removed no matter how aggressive and violent they are. It's a really f'd up system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the PP whose DD’s friend was also the chair thrower. I’ve wondered this a long time: I was in a big public elementary school in the 80s and early 90s. Where were these kids then? I remember a special education classroom that was kids with severe developmental delays, and I remember some kids who were on the social fringes and in gen ed who would probably be classified as HFA now, but I don’t remember any escalating or violent classroom episodes. Would they have been separated into a different track at Kindergarten intake or did they not exist?

I wonder that myself. My dad was an upper elementary school teacher at a fairly “rough” school (lots of poverty, lots of people with low education levels, substance abuse, etc.) in the 80s and early 90s. Violent kids definitely existed at his school. I’m not sure what happened to them in all honesty. Maybe there was less “tolerance” overall, maybe the schools were quicker to go through the disciplinary process and suspend or expel them. However even if you get expelled, I think the alternative schools still have to accept a kid until they are 18. Maybe there was less push-back from administration on disciplining kids.

But kids were growing up in the 50s and 60s when all their post-war Boomer parents were alcoholics with untreated PTSD, and there was a lot of poverty back then too. Moms smoked and drank while pregnant and there were more environmental hazards like lead paint. And class sizes were huge for the early and mid range boomers, my parents (both boomers born in the mid-1950s) had 35-40 kids in their classes. And there didn’t seem to be as many disruptive kids at all. I know the kids born with visible developmental disabilities were often institutionalized back then but that wouldn’t include the “chair throwers” who were otherwise normal.

There was a kid at my kids school last year who had an entire wing of the school cleared out because of a tantrum and I know that kid had a very difficult home life. But then again … very difficult home lives have always happened to kids. Alcoholism was probably more pervasive in the recent past and that creates all kinds of secondary problems. We do have more lower income immigrants now, some of whom have literally come from war-torn countries or countries torn apart by gang and drug violence, but I’ll be honest … those aren’t generally the kids causing massive disruptions at my kid’s school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I have a special needs kid like this

They offered to place him in a Nonverbal autistic class because of his intense behaviors

Or a regular class with no support. My son is at grade level academically. In other to get him the 1:1 support he needs, he needs to fail out of the regular class.

Blame the administration for making this insane system.

And yes, you should press charges if they do something life threatening. The school will be forced to deal with it.

Not sure what district you are in, but FCPS has an emotional disabilities program with self-contained classes for this type of child. It's pretty hard to get into though, and also not necessarily a good place to be. But they have it.

These posts just make it clear the parents of normal kids need to advocate for them. We can be sure the parents of the chair throwers will be advocating for their kids to stay in the class room no matter how bad their behavior is. Like one of the pps said, less empathy is needed here not more.

I’ve never heard of a parent fighting for a LESS restrictive placement. Everyone wants more services, not less. The problem comes in when the schools aren’t forthcoming about the options. Because most parents have no idea what even to ask for or how to go about asking for it in an effective manner. And the schools LOVE to fight about this stuff and will absolutely hire outside counsel to not have to pay to send a kid to an outside placement for kids with behavioral difficulties. It’s extremely daunting to go up against a large school district especially when you’re pretty sure you’re not going to win and the end outcome is going to be you wasted time and $$$ only for them to place your kid right back at the neighborhood school.

That's right. My child was that child when he started Kindergarten. His class had 28 students. He would become overwhelmed and strip naked, dump all the toys off the shelves and climb into them curling into a fetal position. He hit anyone who tried to help him and had the classroom evacuated twice in the span of the first month of school. We were blindsided by this behavior (it was "mild" autism) and frantically started searching for providers. We payed thousands of dollars for private evaluations. We BEGGED the school to place him in a MORE restrictive classroom because he and the other children were suffering. The school said they were legally obligated to have him in the least restrictive environment while data was collected. He cried every night at home that the classroom was too loud. He banged his head in the lunchroom leaving himself bruised. We pleaded for a 1:1 aide while this data was collected (how much data do you need?!?) and first they said there was already a teacher and an aide assigned to the class. We begged more. They said they didn't have the money and since he didn't have an IEP yet they couldn't assign a 1:1 to him. We hired an advocate and spent thousands and thousands of dollars during the IEP process. We signed him up for private speech/OT/PT and when the insurance runs out on those services at the mid-way point of the year, we spend thousands out of pocket on those therapies.

My child is doing well now but as a pp said, it's only because we have the means and education to provide for and advocate for not only our child, but frankly his classmates. The majority of parents are like my husband and I, we care not only about our child but the other children impacted. No one needs to be on "the lookout" for these parents to shame them. Trust and believe most are doing everything they possibly can and already feel horrible. No need to make them cry even more at night because chances are they are holding on by a thread and crying multiple times a week over their frustration/stress.

You lost me at the bolded. More honest for you to acknowledge that you were in denial up to that point and had not started needed intervention. If parents are honest with their pediatrician, issues are identified early and parents guided through appropriate channels and therapies.

NP.

Come ON. Why would you be such a b1tch? That's absurd. How are they supposed to know that their kid is going to react like that if he's never been in that environment before? What's wrong with you?

+1, and this is also anyone who has been a parent to a toddler/preschooler knows there are a lot of behaviors that you worry about but are age appropriate and it's only when they don't grow out of them (at around kindergarten age) that it becomes clear they have an issue. The behavior the PP describes would not be considered a sign of autism in a 2/3 yr old, for instance. A severe tantrum, yes, but toddlers sometimes take their clothes off or push all the toys off a shelf when they are upset. As a parent, you look at that behavior and wonder "is something else going on?" You mention it to the pediatrician and she says "well that's age appropriate, but we'll keep an eye on it." Then your kid is 4 and the behavior gets a bit better, maybe in part because you're getting better at managing it and giving your kid what they need. It feels like progress so you think, ok this was normal toddler behavior and he's growing out of it.

Then your kid goes to kindergarten and it suddenly becomes clear that your child is on a totally different trajectory from other kids and you're getting called about behavior twice a week and you realize it's time to get them evaluated. And sure, you wondered about it when they were 3 but you were reassured it was normal and then it became normal to you because you'd been dealing with it every day, and it's not until your child is in a crowded classroom with 20+ other kids and elementary-level expectations that you understand how your kid is different. It will feel like a blindside even if the behavior isn't totally outside the realm of normal for your kid because while you know what your kid is like, you don't know what ALL kids are like at that age and you can't draw those comparisons until they are right in front of you.

I have young children and also work in the field. I can guarantee you that children with such sensory sensitivities show a clear and sustained pattern well before kindergarten. It is not the random tantrum. Parents know, they are just hoping it will go away.

Has it occurred to you that you might be able to recognize that pattern because you work in the field, but that the average parent dealing with this for the very first time may not be able to do so? The parents don't "know" because they don't have the context to know, and 99% of parenting advice for toddlers is "they'll grow out of it, be patient."

Also, something I've learned is that since my kid's issues are similar to undiagnosed issues I have (that no one, not my parents and none of my teachers ever recognized as a pattern even thought it was), it was harder for me to understand that these were treatable problems. This is really, really common.

It sounds like you're in the wrong field, by the way.

+1
I’m the poster above with A mild-moderate ASS kid. Even though he was our 3rd child, and so I knew something was off, I would have had no context for that if he was my first. And even sensing something g was off, I had close friends and family members, doctors, speech therapists, all tell me when he turned around 5, that I was right, but when he was a toddler they thought I was just being neurotic.

You don't need context to notice a pattern, almost all first time parents know something is off as well. No one is talking about toddlers, between 4-5 and before starting school it is pretty clear that a kid will need support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you need to go and read the Special Needs forum. Don’t post, just read. See what the parents are going through. Listen to their anguish as they post about struggles getting help for their kids both in school and through private therapies. See the emotional and monetary cost that they are living through.

Most parents are trying to help their kids and are frustrated with the system and how it is failing their kids. They don’t want their kid melting down in your kids class. They don’t want to be judged. They want the best for their kid. They want your kid to be safe.

It sucks having a kid melting down and throwing things and all of that. It sucks for the Teacher, it sucks for the students, it sucks for that kid. No one wants this. But solving it is hard and the families who are working to find a solution know it is expensive, there are not enough providers, and there are not enough Teachers.

Just read what those parents are living through. Hopefully it will reset the issue in your mind. You will still be upset about your kids experience and angry that your kid is in danger but maybe a bit less likely to use words like monster and ashamed and horrible parents. While there are some parents who are horrible, the vast majority os SN parents are working their butts off trying to help their kids. It isn’t easy for them or for the kid. But they are trying and not these absentee parents you think they are.

This isn’t about the parents. We don’t need more empathy here, frankly we need less. We need schools with rules where kids come prepared to learn and teachers are able to teach. Kids who throw chairs when they’re upset do not belong in a regular classroom, period. They need a contained environment.

The pendulum has swung too far the wrong way. I’m sorry for their troubles, but we cannot sacrifice the many for the sake of the violent few. Teachers and students have a right to feel safe in their classrooms.

In-person school should be a privilege for behaved children. If kids cannot function in a classroom, online school should be the default.

Luckily that’s illegal under several federal and state laws. And that’s probably why you were drummed out of MCPS, if you are who I think you are based on your other posts.

Is there a problem? Sure. It’s due to schools fighting parents of special needs who want proper support in the classroom. As demonstrated by the challenges discussed in this thread, everyone benefits when the necessary support is in the classroom.

Let the voters decide. This is the future.

They did. And they elected leaders that passed the 14th amendment, the ADA, IDEA, and a variety of state laws that protect the rights of students with disabilities.

With the change in the SC, these items should be revisited. I am guess it wouldn't go your way this time.

You do know that the SC does not legislate, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I have a special needs kid like this

They offered to place him in a Nonverbal autistic class because of his intense behaviors

Or a regular class with no support. My son is at grade level academically. In other to get him the 1:1 support he needs, he needs to fail out of the regular class.

Blame the administration for making this insane system.

And yes, you should press charges if they do something life threatening. The school will be forced to deal with it.

Not sure what district you are in, but FCPS has an emotional disabilities program with self-contained classes for this type of child. It's pretty hard to get into though, and also not necessarily a good place to be. But they have it.

These posts just make it clear the parents of normal kids need to advocate for them. We can be sure the parents of the chair throwers will be advocating for their kids to stay in the class room no matter how bad their behavior is. Like one of the pps said, less empathy is needed here not more.

I’ve never heard of a parent fighting for a LESS restrictive placement. Everyone wants more services, not less. The problem comes in when the schools aren’t forthcoming about the options. Because most parents have no idea what even to ask for or how to go about asking for it in an effective manner. And the schools LOVE to fight about this stuff and will absolutely hire outside counsel to not have to pay to send a kid to an outside placement for kids with behavioral difficulties. It’s extremely daunting to go up against a large school district especially when you’re pretty sure you’re not going to win and the end outcome is going to be you wasted time and $$$ only for them to place your kid right back at the neighborhood school.

That's right. My child was that child when he started Kindergarten. His class had 28 students. He would become overwhelmed and strip naked, dump all the toys off the shelves and climb into them curling into a fetal position. He hit anyone who tried to help him and had the classroom evacuated twice in the span of the first month of school. We were blindsided by this behavior (it was "mild" autism) and frantically started searching for providers. We payed thousands of dollars for private evaluations. We BEGGED the school to place him in a MORE restrictive classroom because he and the other children were suffering. The school said they were legally obligated to have him in the least restrictive environment while data was collected. He cried every night at home that the classroom was too loud. He banged his head in the lunchroom leaving himself bruised. We pleaded for a 1:1 aide while this data was collected (how much data do you need?!?) and first they said there was already a teacher and an aide assigned to the class. We begged more. They said they didn't have the money and since he didn't have an IEP yet they couldn't assign a 1:1 to him. We hired an advocate and spent thousands and thousands of dollars during the IEP process. We signed him up for private speech/OT/PT and when the insurance runs out on those services at the mid-way point of the year, we spend thousands out of pocket on those therapies.

My child is doing well now but as a pp said, it's only because we have the means and education to provide for and advocate for not only our child, but frankly his classmates. The majority of parents are like my husband and I, we care not only about our child but the other children impacted. No one needs to be on "the lookout" for these parents to shame them. Trust and believe most are doing everything they possibly can and already feel horrible. No need to make them cry even more at night because chances are they are holding on by a thread and crying multiple times a week over their frustration/stress.

You lost me at the bolded. More honest for you to acknowledge that you were in denial up to that point and had not started needed intervention. If parents are honest with their pediatrician, issues are identified early and parents guided through appropriate channels and therapies.

NP.

Come ON. Why would you be such a b1tch? That's absurd. How are they supposed to know that their kid is going to react like that if he's never been in that environment before? What's wrong with you?

+1, and this is also anyone who has been a parent to a toddler/preschooler knows there are a lot of behaviors that you worry about but are age appropriate and it's only when they don't grow out of them (at around kindergarten age) that it becomes clear they have an issue. The behavior the PP describes would not be considered a sign of autism in a 2/3 yr old, for instance. A severe tantrum, yes, but toddlers sometimes take their clothes off or push all the toys off a shelf when they are upset. As a parent, you look at that behavior and wonder "is something else going on?" You mention it to the pediatrician and she says "well that's age appropriate, but we'll keep an eye on it." Then your kid is 4 and the behavior gets a bit better, maybe in part because you're getting better at managing it and giving your kid what they need. It feels like progress so you think, ok this was normal toddler behavior and he's growing out of it.

Then your kid goes to kindergarten and it suddenly becomes clear that your child is on a totally different trajectory from other kids and you're getting called about behavior twice a week and you realize it's time to get them evaluated. And sure, you wondered about it when they were 3 but you were reassured it was normal and then it became normal to you because you'd been dealing with it every day, and it's not until your child is in a crowded classroom with 20+ other kids and elementary-level expectations that you understand how your kid is different. It will feel like a blindside even if the behavior isn't totally outside the realm of normal for your kid because while you know what your kid is like, you don't know what ALL kids are like at that age and you can't draw those comparisons until they are right in front of you.

I have young children and also work in the field. I can guarantee you that children with such sensory sensitivities show a clear and sustained pattern well before kindergarten. It is not the random tantrum. Parents know, they are just hoping it will go away.

Parents should know their child has triggers, but the triggers may be different in a new environment. So a parent shouldn’t be entirely blindsided that there’s been *a* problem, but they might be blindsided by the *specific* problem that occurred.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the PP whose DD’s friend was also the chair thrower. I’ve wondered this a long time: I was in a big public elementary school in the 80s and early 90s. Where were these kids then? I remember a special education classroom that was kids with severe developmental delays, and I remember some kids who were on the social fringes and in gen ed who would probably be classified as HFA now, but I don’t remember any escalating or violent classroom episodes. Would they have been separated into a different track at Kindergarten intake or did they not exist?

I wonder that myself. My dad was an upper elementary school teacher at a fairly “rough” school (lots of poverty, lots of people with low education levels, substance abuse, etc.) in the 80s and early 90s. Violent kids definitely existed at his school. I’m not sure what happened to them in all honesty. Maybe there was less “tolerance” overall, maybe the schools were quicker to go through the disciplinary process and suspend or expel them. However even if you get expelled, I think the alternative schools still have to accept a kid until they are 18. Maybe there was less push-back from administration on disciplining kids.

But kids were growing up in the 50s and 60s when all their post-war Boomer parents were alcoholics with untreated PTSD, and there was a lot of poverty back then too. Moms smoked and drank while pregnant and there were more environmental hazards like lead paint. And class sizes were huge for the early and mid range boomers, my parents (both boomers born in the mid-1950s) had 35-40 kids in their classes. And there didn’t seem to be as many disruptive kids at all. I know the kids born with visible developmental disabilities were often institutionalized back then but that wouldn’t include the “chair throwers” who were otherwise normal.

There was a kid at my kids school last year who had an entire wing of the school cleared out because of a tantrum and I know that kid had a very difficult home life. But then again … very difficult home lives have always happened to kids. Alcoholism was probably more pervasive in the recent past and that creates all kinds of secondary problems. We do have more lower income immigrants now, some of whom have literally come from war-torn countries or countries torn apart by gang and drug violence, but I’ll be honest … those aren’t generally the kids causing massive disruptions at my kid’s school.

+1

Well said. DP here. In the 80's I saw a chai thrower type (this was late MS or early HS) literally led down the hallway, to the principal's office, in between classes, by his ear, by a older female teacher. Epic. All in favor say aye.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the PP whose DD’s friend was also the chair thrower. I’ve wondered this a long time: I was in a big public elementary school in the 80s and early 90s. Where were these kids then? I remember a special education classroom that was kids with severe developmental delays, and I remember some kids who were on the social fringes and in gen ed who would probably be classified as HFA now, but I don’t remember any escalating or violent classroom episodes. Would they have been separated into a different track at Kindergarten intake or did they not exist?

I wonder that myself. My dad was an upper elementary school teacher at a fairly “rough” school (lots of poverty, lots of people with low education levels, substance abuse, etc.) in the 80s and early 90s. Violent kids definitely existed at his school. I’m not sure what happened to them in all honesty. Maybe there was less “tolerance” overall, maybe the schools were quicker to go through the disciplinary process and suspend or expel them. However even if you get expelled, I think the alternative schools still have to accept a kid until they are 18. Maybe there was less push-back from administration on disciplining kids.

But kids were growing up in the 50s and 60s when all their post-war Boomer parents were alcoholics with untreated PTSD, and there was a lot of poverty back then too. Moms smoked and drank while pregnant and there were more environmental hazards like lead paint. And class sizes were huge for the early and mid range boomers, my parents (both boomers born in the mid-1950s) had 35-40 kids in their classes. And there didn’t seem to be as many disruptive kids at all. I know the kids born with visible developmental disabilities were often institutionalized back then but that wouldn’t include the “chair throwers” who were otherwise normal.

There was a kid at my kids school last year who had an entire wing of the school cleared out because of a tantrum and I know that kid had a very difficult home life. But then again … very difficult home lives have always happened to kids. Alcoholism was probably more pervasive in the recent past and that creates all kinds of secondary problems. We do have more lower income immigrants now, some of whom have literally come from war-torn countries or countries torn apart by gang and drug violence, but I’ll be honest … those aren’t generally the kids causing massive disruptions at my kid’s school.

+1

Well said. DP here. In the 80's I saw a chai thrower type (this was late MS or early HS) literally led down the hallway, to the principal's office, in between classes, by his ear, by a older female teacher. Epic. All in favor say aye.

*chair

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I have a special needs kid like this

They offered to place him in a Nonverbal autistic class because of his intense behaviors

Or a regular class with no support. My son is at grade level academically. In other to get him the 1:1 support he needs, he needs to fail out of the regular class.

Blame the administration for making this insane system.

And yes, you should press charges if they do something life threatening. The school will be forced to deal with it.

Not sure what district you are in, but FCPS has an emotional disabilities program with self-contained classes for this type of child. It's pretty hard to get into though, and also not necessarily a good place to be. But they have it.

These posts just make it clear the parents of normal kids need to advocate for them. We can be sure the parents of the chair throwers will be advocating for their kids to stay in the class room no matter how bad their behavior is. Like one of the pps said, less empathy is needed here not more.

I’ve never heard of a parent fighting for a LESS restrictive placement. Everyone wants more services, not less. The problem comes in when the schools aren’t forthcoming about the options. Because most parents have no idea what even to ask for or how to go about asking for it in an effective manner. And the schools LOVE to fight about this stuff and will absolutely hire outside counsel to not have to pay to send a kid to an outside placement for kids with behavioral difficulties. It’s extremely daunting to go up against a large school district especially when you’re pretty sure you’re not going to win and the end outcome is going to be you wasted time and $$$ only for them to place your kid right back at the neighborhood school.

That's right. My child was that child when he started Kindergarten. His class had 28 students. He would become overwhelmed and strip naked, dump all the toys off the shelves and climb into them curling into a fetal position. He hit anyone who tried to help him and had the classroom evacuated twice in the span of the first month of school. We were blindsided by this behavior (it was "mild" autism) and frantically started searching for providers. We payed thousands of dollars for private evaluations. We BEGGED the school to place him in a MORE restrictive classroom because he and the other children were suffering. The school said they were legally obligated to have him in the least restrictive environment while data was collected. He cried every night at home that the classroom was too loud. He banged his head in the lunchroom leaving himself bruised. We pleaded for a 1:1 aide while this data was collected (how much data do you need?!?) and first they said there was already a teacher and an aide assigned to the class. We begged more. They said they didn't have the money and since he didn't have an IEP yet they couldn't assign a 1:1 to him. We hired an advocate and spent thousands and thousands of dollars during the IEP process. We signed him up for private speech/OT/PT and when the insurance runs out on those services at the mid-way point of the year, we spend thousands out of pocket on those therapies.

My child is doing well now but as a pp said, it's only because we have the means and education to provide for and advocate for not only our child, but frankly his classmates. The majority of parents are like my husband and I, we care not only about our child but the other children impacted. No one needs to be on "the lookout" for these parents to shame them. Trust and believe most are doing everything they possibly can and already feel horrible. No need to make them cry even more at night because chances are they are holding on by a thread and crying multiple times a week over their frustration/stress.

You lost me at the bolded. More honest for you to acknowledge that you were in denial up to that point and had not started needed intervention. If parents are honest with their pediatrician, issues are identified early and parents guided through appropriate channels and therapies.

NP.

Come ON. Why would you be such a b1tch? That's absurd. How are they supposed to know that their kid is going to react like that if he's never been in that environment before? What's wrong with you?

+1, and this is also anyone who has been a parent to a toddler/preschooler knows there are a lot of behaviors that you worry about but are age appropriate and it's only when they don't grow out of them (at around kindergarten age) that it becomes clear they have an issue. The behavior the PP describes would not be considered a sign of autism in a 2/3 yr old, for instance. A severe tantrum, yes, but toddlers sometimes take their clothes off or push all the toys off a shelf when they are upset. As a parent, you look at that behavior and wonder "is something else going on?" You mention it to the pediatrician and she says "well that's age appropriate, but we'll keep an eye on it." Then your kid is 4 and the behavior gets a bit better, maybe in part because you're getting better at managing it and giving your kid what they need. It feels like progress so you think, ok this was normal toddler behavior and he's growing out of it.

Then your kid goes to kindergarten and it suddenly becomes clear that your child is on a totally different trajectory from other kids and you're getting called about behavior twice a week and you realize it's time to get them evaluated. And sure, you wondered about it when they were 3 but you were reassured it was normal and then it became normal to you because you'd been dealing with it every day, and it's not until your child is in a crowded classroom with 20+ other kids and elementary-level expectations that you understand how your kid is different. It will feel like a blindside even if the behavior isn't totally outside the realm of normal for your kid because while you know what your kid is like, you don't know what ALL kids are like at that age and you can't draw those comparisons until they are right in front of you.

I have young children and also work in the field. I can guarantee you that children with such sensory sensitivities show a clear and sustained pattern well before kindergarten. It is not the random tantrum. Parents know, they are just hoping it will go away.

Parents should know their child has triggers, but the triggers may be different in a new environment. So a parent shouldn’t be entirely blindsided that there’s been *a* problem, but they might be blindsided by the *specific* problem that occurred.

Excuses are not serving your child well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you need to go and read the Special Needs forum. Don’t post, just read. See what the parents are going through. Listen to their anguish as they post about struggles getting help for their kids both in school and through private therapies. See the emotional and monetary cost that they are living through.

Most parents are trying to help their kids and are frustrated with the system and how it is failing their kids. They don’t want their kid melting down in your kids class. They don’t want to be judged. They want the best for their kid. They want your kid to be safe.

It sucks having a kid melting down and throwing things and all of that. It sucks for the Teacher, it sucks for the students, it sucks for that kid. No one wants this. But solving it is hard and the families who are working to find a solution know it is expensive, there are not enough providers, and there are not enough Teachers.

Just read what those parents are living through. Hopefully it will reset the issue in your mind. You will still be upset about your kids experience and angry that your kid is in danger but maybe a bit less likely to use words like monster and ashamed and horrible parents. While there are some parents who are horrible, the vast majority os SN parents are working their butts off trying to help their kids. It isn’t easy for them or for the kid. But they are trying and not these absentee parents you think they are.

This isn’t about the parents. We don’t need more empathy here, frankly we need less. We need schools with rules where kids come prepared to learn and teachers are able to teach. Kids who throw chairs when they’re upset do not belong in a regular classroom, period. They need a contained environment.

The pendulum has swung too far the wrong way. I’m sorry for their troubles, but we cannot sacrifice the many for the sake of the violent few. Teachers and students have a right to feel safe in their classrooms.

In-person school should be a privilege for behaved children. If kids cannot function in a classroom, online school should be the default.

Luckily that’s illegal under several federal and state laws. And that’s probably why you were drummed out of MCPS, if you are who I think you are based on your other posts.

Is there a problem? Sure. It’s due to schools fighting parents of special needs who want proper support in the classroom. As demonstrated by the challenges discussed in this thread, everyone benefits when the necessary support is in the classroom.

Let the voters decide. This is the future.

They did. And they elected leaders that passed the 14th amendment, the ADA, IDEA, and a variety of state laws that protect the rights of students with disabilities.

They are ripe to be updated for new tools available.

New tools available? Besides it not being clear what you mean, it’s irrelevant. The laws and regulations don’t specify the means.

You just don’t like that the laws specify that schools must be inclusive. I’m guessing you’re the former principal that now wants to banish kids with disabilities to their homes, which would obviously impose significant limitations on the services and supports they could receive.

dp. Laws are not set in stone. They change and will change, because while compassion is a core value of our society, it does not trump the basic needs of the many. There is a difference between being inclusive and accommodating vs. being consumed by the needs of the few.

Honestly, I don’t think IDEA is driven by compassion. It’s driven by practicality. Children with disabilities still (usually) have decades of life ahead of them. They’re going to have to learn academic, social, and emotional skills in order to function in society. Ignoring their needs on basis that it is too hard, expensive, or uncomfortable for others will simply create bigger problems down the line.

Nope it's not practical to spend 30% of your budget on 1% of the population, who will ultimately still end up being the lowest contributor to society, while significantly impacting the needs of the 99% who will have to slave away to keep this thing going.

It sounds terrible and yet our government and society makes these types of decisions routinely, because unfortunately resources are limited.

So then what's your plan? It's cheaper to intervene when kids are young. If you take that away, what happens to the disabled adults? Spend more? Or do you approve of eugenics? Euthanasia? Please, do tell us all.

Sometimes full-time therapy is more appropriate than regular, in-person school.

You didn’t say what you’re going to do with the adults. Go back to warehousing them in asylums? Or do you just expect them to live on the street until they die from exposure, malnutrition, untreated infections, or violence?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was a high school teacher. I had objects thrown at me by students. I had students get in my face and shout at me. I had students throw chairs/desks. I had a student break my computer on my desk and throw all my belongings that were on the desk around the room. My admin told me I wasn't good at classroom management and that this was all my fault that I needed to improve. I would send kids to the dean's office, which was what we were told to do w/ kids who were a discipline issue. Sometimes kids would actually go when I told them to, sometimes they wouldn't. Sometimes they'd go and the dean would send them right back to class 5 mins later. I quit.

No one supported me as a teacher. No one supported or protected the other students in these classes who consistently had their learning disrupted and their physical safety threatened at school. It's a horrible system. Now my own kids are in a public elementary. Luckily we haven't seen anything like this yet. If we do, we will address w/ admin one time and if not corrected, I'll be taking my kids out of school. I will not tolerate it at all.

As other PPs have said, it's all tied to funding. Special ed programs and alternative schooling programs for troubled kids are more expensive than having the kid stay in the 'mainstream' classroom. So admin typically does try to keep kids in the mainstream classroom as long as possible, meaning there may be multiple violent incidents before they are removed or they may never be removed no matter how aggressive and violent they are. It's a really f'd up system.

Also tied to parents with their head in the sand, and they want the recipients of this behavior to be in an equal amount of denial. How some don't get sued is beyond me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you need to go and read the Special Needs forum. Don’t post, just read. See what the parents are going through. Listen to their anguish as they post about struggles getting help for their kids both in school and through private therapies. See the emotional and monetary cost that they are living through.

Most parents are trying to help their kids and are frustrated with the system and how it is failing their kids. They don’t want their kid melting down in your kids class. They don’t want to be judged. They want the best for their kid. They want your kid to be safe.

It sucks having a kid melting down and throwing things and all of that. It sucks for the Teacher, it sucks for the students, it sucks for that kid. No one wants this. But solving it is hard and the families who are working to find a solution know it is expensive, there are not enough providers, and there are not enough Teachers.

Just read what those parents are living through. Hopefully it will reset the issue in your mind. You will still be upset about your kids experience and angry that your kid is in danger but maybe a bit less likely to use words like monster and ashamed and horrible parents. While there are some parents who are horrible, the vast majority os SN parents are working their butts off trying to help their kids. It isn’t easy for them or for the kid. But they are trying and not these absentee parents you think they are.

This isn’t about the parents. We don’t need more empathy here, frankly we need less. We need schools with rules where kids come prepared to learn and teachers are able to teach. Kids who throw chairs when they’re upset do not belong in a regular classroom, period. They need a contained environment.

The pendulum has swung too far the wrong way. I’m sorry for their troubles, but we cannot sacrifice the many for the sake of the violent few. Teachers and students have a right to feel safe in their classrooms.

In-person school should be a privilege for behaved children. If kids cannot function in a classroom, online school should be the default.

Luckily that’s illegal under several federal and state laws. And that’s probably why you were drummed out of MCPS, if you are who I think you are based on your other posts.

Is there a problem? Sure. It’s due to schools fighting parents of special needs who want proper support in the classroom. As demonstrated by the challenges discussed in this thread, everyone benefits when the necessary support is in the classroom.

Let the voters decide. This is the future.

They did. And they elected leaders that passed the 14th amendment, the ADA, IDEA, and a variety of state laws that protect the rights of students with disabilities.

They are ripe to be updated for new tools available.

New tools available? Besides it not being clear what you mean, it’s irrelevant. The laws and regulations don’t specify the means.

You just don’t like that the laws specify that schools must be inclusive. I’m guessing you’re the former principal that now wants to banish kids with disabilities to their homes, which would obviously impose significant limitations on the services and supports they could receive.

dp. Laws are not set in stone. They change and will change, because while compassion is a core value of our society, it does not trump the basic needs of the many. There is a difference between being inclusive and accommodating vs. being consumed by the needs of the few.

Honestly, I don’t think IDEA is driven by compassion. It’s driven by practicality. Children with disabilities still (usually) have decades of life ahead of them. They’re going to have to learn academic, social, and emotional skills in order to function in society. Ignoring their needs on basis that it is too hard, expensive, or uncomfortable for others will simply create bigger problems down the line.

Nope it's not practical to spend 30% of your budget on 1% of the population, who will ultimately still end up being the lowest contributor to society, while significantly impacting the needs of the 99% who will have to slave away to keep this thing going.

It sounds terrible and yet our government and society makes these types of decisions routinely, because unfortunately resources are limited.

So then what's your plan? It's cheaper to intervene when kids are young. If you take that away, what happens to the disabled adults? Spend more? Or do you approve of eugenics? Euthanasia? Please, do tell us all.

Sometimes full-time therapy is more appropriate than regular, in-person school.

You didn’t say what you’re going to do with the adults. Go back to warehousing them in asylums? Or do you just expect them to live on the street until they die from exposure, malnutrition, untreated infections, or violence?

+1

Their parents need to help these children when they are young, not just wait out 18 years. It is literally their job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that this is not only a thing, but it’s a thing that’s tolerated.

I agree, it is bananas.

I graduated high school in 2002 and cannot recall a single violent or out of control behaviour incident during class in all of K-12. I went to a large public school.

If you graduated highschool this means that you actually graduated the school. You were graduated FROM. Too bad you school did not teach you this !!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I have a special needs kid like this

They offered to place him in a Nonverbal autistic class because of his intense behaviors

Or a regular class with no support. My son is at grade level academically. In other to get him the 1:1 support he needs, he needs to fail out of the regular class.

Blame the administration for making this insane system.

And yes, you should press charges if they do something life threatening. The school will be forced to deal with it.

Not sure what district you are in, but FCPS has an emotional disabilities program with self-contained classes for this type of child. It's pretty hard to get into though, and also not necessarily a good place to be. But they have it.

These posts just make it clear the parents of normal kids need to advocate for them. We can be sure the parents of the chair throwers will be advocating for their kids to stay in the class room no matter how bad their behavior is. Like one of the pps said, less empathy is needed here not more.

I’ve never heard of a parent fighting for a LESS restrictive placement. Everyone wants more services, not less. The problem comes in when the schools aren’t forthcoming about the options. Because most parents have no idea what even to ask for or how to go about asking for it in an effective manner. And the schools LOVE to fight about this stuff and will absolutely hire outside counsel to not have to pay to send a kid to an outside placement for kids with behavioral difficulties. It’s extremely daunting to go up against a large school district especially when you’re pretty sure you’re not going to win and the end outcome is going to be you wasted time and $$$ only for them to place your kid right back at the neighborhood school.

That's right. My child was that child when he started Kindergarten. His class had 28 students. He would become overwhelmed and strip naked, dump all the toys off the shelves and climb into them curling into a fetal position. He hit anyone who tried to help him and had the classroom evacuated twice in the span of the first month of school. We were blindsided by this behavior (it was "mild" autism) and frantically started searching for providers. We payed thousands of dollars for private evaluations. We BEGGED the school to place him in a MORE restrictive classroom because he and the other children were suffering. The school said they were legally obligated to have him in the least restrictive environment while data was collected. He cried every night at home that the classroom was too loud. He banged his head in the lunchroom leaving himself bruised. We pleaded for a 1:1 aide while this data was collected (how much data do you need?!?) and first they said there was already a teacher and an aide assigned to the class. We begged more. They said they didn't have the money and since he didn't have an IEP yet they couldn't assign a 1:1 to him. We hired an advocate and spent thousands and thousands of dollars during the IEP process. We signed him up for private speech/OT/PT and when the insurance runs out on those services at the mid-way point of the year, we spend thousands out of pocket on those therapies.

My child is doing well now but as a pp said, it's only because we have the means and education to provide for and advocate for not only our child, but frankly his classmates. The majority of parents are like my husband and I, we care not only about our child but the other children impacted. No one needs to be on "the lookout" for these parents to shame them. Trust and believe most are doing everything they possibly can and already feel horrible. No need to make them cry even more at night because chances are they are holding on by a thread and crying multiple times a week over their frustration/stress.

You lost me at the bolded. More honest for you to acknowledge that you were in denial up to that point and had not started needed intervention. If parents are honest with their pediatrician, issues are identified early and parents guided through appropriate channels and therapies.

NP.

Come ON. Why would you be such a b1tch? That's absurd. How are they supposed to know that their kid is going to react like that if he's never been in that environment before? What's wrong with you?

+1, and this is also anyone who has been a parent to a toddler/preschooler knows there are a lot of behaviors that you worry about but are age appropriate and it's only when they don't grow out of them (at around kindergarten age) that it becomes clear they have an issue. The behavior the PP describes would not be considered a sign of autism in a 2/3 yr old, for instance. A severe tantrum, yes, but toddlers sometimes take their clothes off or push all the toys off a shelf when they are upset. As a parent, you look at that behavior and wonder "is something else going on?" You mention it to the pediatrician and she says "well that's age appropriate, but we'll keep an eye on it." Then your kid is 4 and the behavior gets a bit better, maybe in part because you're getting better at managing it and giving your kid what they need. It feels like progress so you think, ok this was normal toddler behavior and he's growing out of it.

Then your kid goes to kindergarten and it suddenly becomes clear that your child is on a totally different trajectory from other kids and you're getting called about behavior twice a week and you realize it's time to get them evaluated. And sure, you wondered about it when they were 3 but you were reassured it was normal and then it became normal to you because you'd been dealing with it every day, and it's not until your child is in a crowded classroom with 20+ other kids and elementary-level expectations that you understand how your kid is different. It will feel like a blindside even if the behavior isn't totally outside the realm of normal for your kid because while you know what your kid is like, you don't know what ALL kids are like at that age and you can't draw those comparisons until they are right in front of you.

I have young children and also work in the field. I can guarantee you that children with such sensory sensitivities show a clear and sustained pattern well before kindergarten. It is not the random tantrum. Parents know, they are just hoping it will go away.

Parents should know their child has triggers, but the triggers may be different in a new environment. So a parent shouldn’t be entirely blindsided that there’s been *a* problem, but they might be blindsided by the *specific* problem that occurred.

Excuses are not serving your child well.

You’ve clearly never had to deal with a NT child if you think it is possible to consistently and accurately predict how they will respond to new environments.

And to the extent parents can and, that’s also part of the challenge. Parents know techniques to avoid and deescalate. When the school staff ignore the parents recommendations and warnings, or otherwise simply act differently, you're going to get different behaviors from the child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a chair thrower in 1st grade. He is now top of his class in 4th grade and one of the better behaved kids. It took a lot of therapy, meds, and the right type of school support. It's exhausting and horrible. My kid will now tell me things like "in 1st grade my teacher thought I was so bad, she never let me play at recess and I always had to sit alone". I don't have much advice for the other parents, because all of my energy was tied up in trying to help my own kid. Maybe if it makes you feel better you can try to be grateful that your child doesn't struggle this way? Not trying to he snarky, just offering another viewpoint. I also think it's totally fine to keep asking the principal to be moved to another classroom if your child is truly bothered or having trouble learning.

Sorry but what kid wouldn’t be bothered or have trouble learning if they think that at any minute someone might throw a chair at them? Imagine if this was allowed at work. I do have sympathy for the chair throwing kid too but not at the expense of every other kid + teachers’ safety. First priority at school should be making sure all kids and staff are sane, if you can’t do that, no learning will be happening.

My kid would be fine. Same way they’re not terrified when they see a crazy homeless person, or a loud barking dog, or a kid with cerebral palsy, or whatever else it is that you find undesirable or that makes you uncomfortable.

Nothing in your post indicates your kid is under any threat.

One of mine would be fine. The other wouldn't. The problem is not every child that young has the ability to express how they are processing things like this.

The six year old that brought the gun to school in Hampton Va and shot his teacher was known as a behavioral problem. In that situation it’s possible to see an outcome where no one was fine. How do you know the behavior won’t escalate in this way?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you need to go and read the Special Needs forum. Don’t post, just read. See what the parents are going through. Listen to their anguish as they post about struggles getting help for their kids both in school and through private therapies. See the emotional and monetary cost that they are living through.

Most parents are trying to help their kids and are frustrated with the system and how it is failing their kids. They don’t want their kid melting down in your kids class. They don’t want to be judged. They want the best for their kid. They want your kid to be safe.

It sucks having a kid melting down and throwing things and all of that. It sucks for the Teacher, it sucks for the students, it sucks for that kid. No one wants this. But solving it is hard and the families who are working to find a solution know it is expensive, there are not enough providers, and there are not enough Teachers.

Just read what those parents are living through. Hopefully it will reset the issue in your mind. You will still be upset about your kids experience and angry that your kid is in danger but maybe a bit less likely to use words like monster and ashamed and horrible parents. While there are some parents who are horrible, the vast majority os SN parents are working their butts off trying to help their kids. It isn’t easy for them or for the kid. But they are trying and not these absentee parents you think they are.

This isn’t about the parents. We don’t need more empathy here, frankly we need less. We need schools with rules where kids come prepared to learn and teachers are able to teach. Kids who throw chairs when they’re upset do not belong in a regular classroom, period. They need a contained environment.

The pendulum has swung too far the wrong way. I’m sorry for their troubles, but we cannot sacrifice the many for the sake of the violent few. Teachers and students have a right to feel safe in their classrooms.

In-person school should be a privilege for behaved children. If kids cannot function in a classroom, online school should be the default.

Luckily that’s illegal under several federal and state laws. And that’s probably why you were drummed out of MCPS, if you are who I think you are based on your other posts.

Is there a problem? Sure. It’s due to schools fighting parents of special needs who want proper support in the classroom. As demonstrated by the challenges discussed in this thread, everyone benefits when the necessary support is in the classroom.

Let the voters decide. This is the future.

They did. And they elected leaders that passed the 14th amendment, the ADA, IDEA, and a variety of state laws that protect the rights of students with disabilities.

They are ripe to be updated for new tools available.

New tools available? Besides it not being clear what you mean, it’s irrelevant. The laws and regulations don’t specify the means.

You just don’t like that the laws specify that schools must be inclusive. I’m guessing you’re the former principal that now wants to banish kids with disabilities to their homes, which would obviously impose significant limitations on the services and supports they could receive.

dp. Laws are not set in stone. They change and will change, because while compassion is a core value of our society, it does not trump the basic needs of the many. There is a difference between being inclusive and accommodating vs. being consumed by the needs of the few.

Honestly, I don’t think IDEA is driven by compassion. It’s driven by practicality. Children with disabilities still (usually) have decades of life ahead of them. They’re going to have to learn academic, social, and emotional skills in order to function in society. Ignoring their needs on basis that it is too hard, expensive, or uncomfortable for others will simply create bigger problems down the line.

Nope it's not practical to spend 30% of your budget on 1% of the population, who will ultimately still end up being the lowest contributor to society, while significantly impacting the needs of the 99% who will have to slave away to keep this thing going.

It sounds terrible and yet our government and society makes these types of decisions routinely, because unfortunately resources are limited.

So then what's your plan? It's cheaper to intervene when kids are young. If you take that away, what happens to the disabled adults? Spend more? Or do you approve of eugenics? Euthanasia? Please, do tell us all.

Sometimes full-time therapy is more appropriate than regular, in-person school.

You didn’t say what you’re going to do with the adults. Go back to warehousing them in asylums? Or do you just expect them to live on the street until they die from exposure, malnutrition, untreated infections, or violence?

+1

Their parents need to help these children when they are young, not just wait out 18 years. It is literally their job.

Parents need to get their kids ready for a classroom environment. If the best parents can do is online school, then let the kids succeed there.

Kids need parents and schools cannot fill that gap.