Does Baptism mean that you those who are not Baptized won't go to heaven?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s ridiculous to put the Creative Consciousness of all that is, in a box. God is bigger than any sacrament. Does that mean sacraments aren’t important? No. They are outward expressions of our faith. But they are for us. Not God. God doesn’t care whether or not another human dunked you in or sprinkled you with water.

Just my opinion as a minister who has done hundreds of baptisms. It can be beautiful demonstration of faith. But, it’s most certainly not necessary.

This is op again. This is sort of how I see our now as an adult, with a broader view of God. What type of minister are you?

The pastor at my home church was very clear that it was important to fully commit to the Nicene and Apostles Creeds.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

By this logic, wouldn't more people have a better chance of achieving salvation if they were not exposed to the Gospel? Like a failed conversion could be worse than none at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

By this logic, wouldn't more people have a better chance of achieving salvation if they were not exposed to the Gospel? Like a failed conversion could be worse than none at all?

No, according to the Catholic church, no baptism means a sure eternity in hell, no matter how good a life a person led on earth. You can't achieve salvation except through the Church.

Baptism means a chance at eternal salvation, assuming your soul is free from sin when you die, because you have recently received holy communion or you received extreme unction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s ridiculous to put the Creative Consciousness of all that is, in a box. God is bigger than any sacrament. Does that mean sacraments aren’t important? No. They are outward expressions of our faith. But they are for us. Not God. God doesn’t care whether or not another human dunked you in or sprinkled you with water.

Just my opinion as a minister who has done hundreds of baptisms. It can be beautiful demonstration of faith. But, it’s most certainly not necessary.

This is op again. This is sort of how I see our now as an adult, with a broader view of God. What type of minister are you?

The pastor at my home church was very clear that it was important to fully commit to the Nicene and Apostles Creeds.

If it's the minister who frequently posts here, she is a Unity hospice minister, who expresses her personal and very liberal views about how Christianity works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

By this logic, wouldn't more people have a better chance of achieving salvation if they were not exposed to the Gospel? Like a failed conversion could be worse than none at all?

No, according to the Catholic church, no baptism means a sure eternity in hell, no matter how good a life a person led on earth. You can't achieve salvation except through the Church.

Baptism means a chance at eternal salvation, assuming your soul is free from sin when you die, because you have recently received holy communion or you received extreme unction.

The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.

https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/barron/is-hell-crowded-or-empty-a-catholic-perspective/

“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…

… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

By this logic, wouldn't more people have a better chance of achieving salvation if they were not exposed to the Gospel? Like a failed conversion could be worse than none at all?

No, according to the Catholic church, no baptism means a sure eternity in hell, no matter how good a life a person led on earth. You can't achieve salvation except through the Church.

Baptism means a chance at eternal salvation, assuming your soul is free from sin when you die, because you have recently received holy communion or you received extreme unction.

The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.

https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/barron/is-hell-crowded-or-empty-a-catholic-perspective/

“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…

… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”

CS Lewis was not Catholic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

You sound like an obstinate adolescent asking why anyone would read difficult books if they weren’t being graded on them.
I think that from a young age, our school system teaches kids that the main purpose of life is to jump through hoops and get to some other, better thing. And this continues on through our careers and raising our own children. You are trying to apply this perspective to religion, but it doesn’t work.
People are called to be so much more than obedient rule-followers.
The purpose of accepting God is not to jump through a hoop to get to Heaven. It is to have the love of God in your life now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

By this logic, wouldn't more people have a better chance of achieving salvation if they were not exposed to the Gospel? Like a failed conversion could be worse than none at all?

No, according to the Catholic church, no baptism means a sure eternity in hell, no matter how good a life a person led on earth. You can't achieve salvation except through the Church.

Baptism means a chance at eternal salvation, assuming your soul is free from sin when you die, because you have recently received holy communion or you received extreme unction.

The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.

https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/barron/is-hell-crowded-or-empty-a-catholic-perspective/

“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…

… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”

CS Lewis was not Catholic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis

True. But a lot of what he said resonates with Catholics, including Bishop Barron who wrote that article regarding the possibility of an empty Hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

By this logic, wouldn't more people have a better chance of achieving salvation if they were not exposed to the Gospel? Like a failed conversion could be worse than none at all?

No, according to the Catholic church, no baptism means a sure eternity in hell, no matter how good a life a person led on earth. You can't achieve salvation except through the Church.

Baptism means a chance at eternal salvation, assuming your soul is free from sin when you die, because you have recently received holy communion or you received extreme unction.

The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.

https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/barron/is-hell-crowded-or-empty-a-catholic-perspective/

“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…

… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”

CS Lewis was not Catholic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis

True. But a lot of what he said resonates with Catholics, including Bishop Barron who wrote that article regarding the possibility of an empty Hell.

So what -- he doesn't speak for the catholic church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

You sound like an obstinate adolescent asking why anyone would read difficult books if they weren’t being graded on them.
I think that from a young age, our school system teaches kids that the main purpose of life is to jump through hoops and get to some other, better thing. And this continues on through our careers and raising our own children. You are trying to apply this perspective to religion, but it doesn’t work.
People are called to be so much more than obedient rule-followers.
The purpose of accepting God is not to jump through a hoop to get to Heaven. It is to have the love of God in your life now.

But why? That was the question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

You sound like an obstinate adolescent asking why anyone would read difficult books if they weren’t being graded on them.
I think that from a young age, our school system teaches kids that the main purpose of life is to jump through hoops and get to some other, better thing. And this continues on through our careers and raising our own children. You are trying to apply this perspective to religion, but it doesn’t work.
People are called to be so much more than obedient rule-followers.
The purpose of accepting God is not to jump through a hoop to get to Heaven. It is to have the love of God in your life now.

What is your religious background? Are you Christian? You and PP simply have different beliefs. And I would argue that your interpretation is not aligned with Catholics, mainline protestants, and fundamentalist Protestants. These groups definitely teach that salvation through Christ is the only way to be in the presence of God after death (in Heaven). "Going to Heaven" is definitely the main goal for Christians. That is the whole reason Jesus was sacrificed on the cross.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

By this logic, wouldn't more people have a better chance of achieving salvation if they were not exposed to the Gospel? Like a failed conversion could be worse than none at all?

No, according to the Catholic church, no baptism means a sure eternity in hell, no matter how good a life a person led on earth. You can't achieve salvation except through the Church.

Baptism means a chance at eternal salvation, assuming your soul is free from sin when you die, because you have recently received holy communion or you received extreme unction.

That is not accurate. The Catechism says, regarding infants who die without baptism:

The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allows us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. (CCC 1261)

The Order of Christian Funerals contains a special rite for children who die before baptism, during which the child’s soul is entrusted “to the abundant mercy of God, that our beloved child may find a home in his kingdom.” Option D of the opening prayer begins, “God of all consolation, searcher of mind and heart, the faith of these parents . . . is known to you. Comfort them with the knowledge that the child for whom they grieve is entrusted now to your loving care.”

The default position of the Church is that of hope, not eternal hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

By this logic, wouldn't more people have a better chance of achieving salvation if they were not exposed to the Gospel? Like a failed conversion could be worse than none at all?

No, according to the Catholic church, no baptism means a sure eternity in hell, no matter how good a life a person led on earth. You can't achieve salvation except through the Church.

Baptism means a chance at eternal salvation, assuming your soul is free from sin when you die, because you have recently received holy communion or you received extreme unction.

That is not accurate. The Catechism says, regarding infants who die without baptism:

The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allows us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. (CCC 1261)

The Order of Christian Funerals contains a special rite for children who die before baptism, during which the child’s soul is entrusted “to the abundant mercy of God, that our beloved child may find a home in his kingdom.” Option D of the opening prayer begins, “God of all consolation, searcher of mind and heart, the faith of these parents . . . is known to you. Comfort them with the knowledge that the child for whom they grieve is entrusted now to your loving care.”

The default position of the Church is that of hope, not eternal hell.

I wonder why parents rush to get their kids baptized and why some Catholic grandparents go nuts when their kids don't care about baptizing their grandchildren. Looks lie the kids will go to heaven either way. Maybe a lot of grandparents don't know this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

By this logic, wouldn't more people have a better chance of achieving salvation if they were not exposed to the Gospel? Like a failed conversion could be worse than none at all?

No, according to the Catholic church, no baptism means a sure eternity in hell, no matter how good a life a person led on earth. You can't achieve salvation except through the Church.

Baptism means a chance at eternal salvation, assuming your soul is free from sin when you die, because you have recently received holy communion or you received extreme unction.

That is not accurate. The Catechism says, regarding infants who die without baptism:

The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allows us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. (CCC 1261)

The Order of Christian Funerals contains a special rite for children who die before baptism, during which the child’s soul is entrusted “to the abundant mercy of God, that our beloved child may find a home in his kingdom.” Option D of the opening prayer begins, “God of all consolation, searcher of mind and heart, the faith of these parents . . . is known to you. Comfort them with the knowledge that the child for whom they grieve is entrusted now to your loving care.”

The default position of the Church is that of hope, not eternal hell.

I wonder why parents rush to get their kids baptized and why some Catholic grandparents go nuts when their kids don't care about baptizing their grandchildren. Looks lie the kids will go to heaven either way. Maybe a lot of grandparents don't know this.

They do it because the Catholic Church says that parents are obliged to have their children baptized. It’s as much about fulfilling parental obligation as anything else — although you’ve got to be baptized before too long, so parents might as well have their children baptized at a young age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.