Does Baptism mean that you those who are not Baptized won't go to heaven?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

Because salvation and accepting Jesus are not synonymous with a moment in time when what is splashed on your head.

Huh? You’re not getting it. Being baptized is, according to Catholics, the moment when Original Sin is washed away. That’s the be all/end all of achieving salvation, but it is a necessary starting point. You cannot accept Jesus without being baptized.

A quick google search tells me that what you just described is not the teaching on the Catholic Church. Can you point to a source that says baptism is a prerequisite to heaven?

It’s not baptism on its own. It’s salvation. Baptism is needed for salvation, which in turn is needed to go to heaven.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Can you point me to the part that says you must be baptized to go heaven? Or even the part that says baptism is required for salvation?

I’ll admit I skimmed, but I didn’t see it.

Here: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Catholicism

Baptism is one of the very basic Catholic sacraments. It’s meant to wipe a soul of Original Sin. Again, the exception is someone who has not been exposed to the Gospel. That’s the entire purpose of proselytizing— Catholic missionaries go and preach the Gospel to those who have not been exposed to it, so that they might have the opportunity to be baptized and, therefore, begin to fulfill the sacraments necessary to achieve salvation.

By this logic, wouldn't more people have a better chance of achieving salvation if they were not exposed to the Gospel? Like a failed conversion could be worse than none at all?

No, according to the Catholic church, no baptism means a sure eternity in hell, no matter how good a life a person led on earth. You can't achieve salvation except through the Church.

Baptism means a chance at eternal salvation, assuming your soul is free from sin when you die, because you have recently received holy communion or you received extreme unction.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Why are you spreading this misinformation? What is your agenda?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

So it's not the Catholic church's position that you must believe in Jesus to get into heaven? When did that change?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.

DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.

DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.

So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.

DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.

So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.

Where did anyone higher up in the Catholic Church say that you did?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.

DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.

So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.

I posted this earlier. It was written by a Catholic Bishop:

The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.

https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/barron/is-hell...-empty-a-catholic-perspective/

“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…

… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.

DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.

So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.

I posted this earlier. It was written by a Catholic Bishop:

The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.

https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/barron/is-hell...-empty-a-catholic-perspective/

“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…

… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”

? That's completely non-response. The question is whether the position of the Catholic church is (or is not) that a person must believe in Jesus to get into heaven.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.

DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.

So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.

I posted this earlier. It was written by a Catholic Bishop:

The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.

https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/barron/is-hell...-empty-a-catholic-perspective/

“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…

… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”

? That's completely non-response. The question is whether the position of the Catholic church is (or is not) that a person must believe in Jesus to get into heaven.

^ sorry. Should be "non-responsive."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.

Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?

My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.

It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.

Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.

As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.

The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.

If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?

For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.

How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.

Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.

Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?

Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?

No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.

I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?

No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.

Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.

DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.

So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.

Where did anyone higher up in the Catholic Church say that you did?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

Here’s more detail from the Catechism:

1023 Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face: 598

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature. 599

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/catechism/index.cfm?recnum=3246

I don’t understand why this is so complicated for you.

[Anonymous]

Here’s more from that same section of the Catechism, if that doesn’t convince you:

1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

1025 To live in heaven is "to be with Christ." The elect live "in Christ," 600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name. 601

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom. 602

1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.


In other words, heaven is being with Jesus and God. That’s what it is defined as. There is no heaven that is separate from that. So if you do not accept Jesus, you cannot access heaven, because heaven does not exist outside of communion with Jesus and God. It’s one and the same.

[Anonymous]

OP you are looking for logic in religion. Don't bother.

Yes as a Catholic child I was taught all kinds of lovely things including that the unbaptized won't go to Heaven.