Federal judge rules that admissions changes at nation’s top public school discriminate against Asian

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

There are two issues with the bolded.

1) The group that you’re disparaging is not in any sense “massive”. It constitutes less than 30% of each incoming class, and in many cases they come from schools where math advancement opportunities are extremely limited relative to FCPS.

2) It’s incorrect to call them “non-advanced”. Algebra 1 in 8th grade, while not as lofty as some of the other opportunities available, is still “advanced” by any definition. That’s why it’s always been a prerequisite for the TJ application.

I’ll follow up by allowing, for the purposes of a civil conversation, that it’s something of a red-flag that the new admissions process is missing as many of the USAJMO qualifiers as it is (I’m taking it as an article of faith that this is happening even though there’s been no proof of it). But I reject the assertion that it should be an automatic qualifier.

It is also always possible that a student who is inexplicably rejected was turned down because they wrote in their essays that they didn’t want to go to TJ. That always exists as an option for students whose parents are pressuring them for something that they don’t want, and the Admissions Office is not permitted to inform the parents that it happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

I don't think it's inconsistent. AAP selection is primarily in (late) elementary school, whereas TJ selection is pre-high school. Many high performing elementary schools kids plateau while many TJers are late bloomers. You can't use a 14yo's prior selection into AAP when that DC was 8yo years as an argument that they should be in TJ over another student. There's plenty of Brownian motion in academic progress in those 6 years.

Now, young scholars is a different issue - that's more about lifting high achievers with significant barriers to success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

There are two issues with the bolded.

1) The group that you’re disparaging is not in any sense “massive”. It constitutes less than 30% of each incoming class, and in many cases they come from schools where math advancement opportunities are extremely limited relative to FCPS.

2) It’s incorrect to call them “non-advanced”. Algebra 1 in 8th grade, while not as lofty as some of the other opportunities available, is still “advanced” by any definition. That’s why it’s always been a prerequisite for the TJ application.

I’ll follow up by allowing, for the purposes of a civil conversation, that it’s something of a red-flag that the new admissions process is missing as many of the USAJMO qualifiers as it is (I’m taking it as an article of faith that this is happening even though there’s been no proof of it). But I reject the assertion that it should be an automatic qualifier.

It is also always possible that a student who is inexplicably rejected was turned down because they wrote in their essays that they didn’t want to go to TJ. That always exists as an option for students whose parents are pressuring them for something that they don’t want, and the Admissions Office is not permitted to inform the parents that it happened.

A little nuance is required when dealing with these two points because this conversation is bigger than just the last year.

1) relatively speaking, it is massive when previous years did not include more than 5% of students without Geometry.

2) comparatively speaking, it is not advanced. It’s a minimum, but relative to peers eligible for admission it is remedial. Relative to base schools and the US, it may be advanced, but that really was more the case 15 years ago.

Not sure what PW or LC, or APS do for advanced math (but would be surprised to learn Algebra I in 7th wasn’t available) as the AAP comparison was for FCPS students. I can’t know that this large influx of sub optimal math is from outside the county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

I don't think it's inconsistent. AAP selection is primarily in (late) elementary school, whereas TJ selection is pre-high school. Many high performing elementary schools kids plateau while many TJers are late bloomers. You can't use a 14yo's prior selection into AAP when that DC was 8yo years as an argument that they should be in TJ over another student. There's plenty of Brownian motion in academic progress in those 6 years.

Now, young scholars is a different issue - that's more about lifting high achievers with significant barriers to success.

This is a poor understanding of the discussion. This and going forward is an all things equal conversation regarding academic records. I’m not saying an AAP kid with a 3.7 should get in over a straight A kid from a base school just because AAP. If a kids academic record declines in AAP, then they are penalized in the admission process.

If one kid has straight As in AAP level IV to include Algebra 7, and another kid has straight As in some honors and Math 7, it would seem that the kid with the more rigorous coursework should be recognized for accomplishing this. Both kids had the same chances to be part of AAP in FCPS but the academic record of the AAP kid isn’t helping at all while clearly better. And since the avg GPA for admissions is like 3.96, I’d say this is a common occurrence in the new system that the quotas allow. Like getting bonus points for FARMs, young scholars, kids in AAP should get bonus points too.

[Anonymous]

There are plenty of kids in LIV and Advanced Math that don’t test into Algebra in 7th grade. I would suspect that the number of kids who were accepted into TJ who had not been in LIV or Advanced Math is really small. Math 7 Honors, a requirement for kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade, is normally populated with LIV and Advanced Math kids who did not test into Algebra 1 Honors or choose not to take Algebra 1 Honors in 7th. There are very few kids who were in the regular classroom who will be in Math 7th Grade honors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of kids in LIV and Advanced Math that don’t test into Algebra in 7th grade. I would suspect that the number of kids who were accepted into TJ who had not been in LIV or Advanced Math is really small. Math 7 Honors, a requirement for kids taking Algebra 1 H in 8th grade, is normally populated with LIV and Advanced Math kids who did not test into Algebra 1 Honors or choose not to take Algebra 1 Honors in 7th. There are very few kids who were in the regular classroom who will be in Math 7th Grade honors.

Math 7 H is self selected and in non-AAP-center schools is full of average students. Definitely not level IV kids as they are at centers. Are you serious?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

There are two issues with the bolded.

1) The group that you’re disparaging is not in any sense “massive”. It constitutes less than 30% of each incoming class, and in many cases they come from schools where math advancement opportunities are extremely limited relative to FCPS.

2) It’s incorrect to call them “non-advanced”. Algebra 1 in 8th grade, while not as lofty as some of the other opportunities available, is still “advanced” by any definition. That’s why it’s always been a prerequisite for the TJ application.

I’ll follow up by allowing, for the purposes of a civil conversation, that it’s something of a red-flag that the new admissions process is missing as many of the USAJMO qualifiers as it is (I’m taking it as an article of faith that this is happening even though there’s been no proof of it). But I reject the assertion that it should be an automatic qualifier.

It is also always possible that a student who is inexplicably rejected was turned down because they wrote in their essays that they didn’t want to go to TJ. That always exists as an option for students whose parents are pressuring them for something that they don’t want, and the Admissions Office is not permitted to inform the parents that it happened.

Missing as many as it is, is not that many, because very very few qualify in 7th grade for them to miss on the first place. The admissions is too late to catch 8th grade qualifiers I think, though they would still have 7th grade scores for AIME and AMC 8. USAJMO is just a glaring example of how they are not doing a good job of getting top students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

There are two issues with the bolded.

1) The group that you’re disparaging is not in any sense “massive”. It constitutes less than 30% of each incoming class, and in many cases they come from schools where math advancement opportunities are extremely limited relative to FCPS.

2) It’s incorrect to call them “non-advanced”. Algebra 1 in 8th grade, while not as lofty as some of the other opportunities available, is still “advanced” by any definition. That’s why it’s always been a prerequisite for the TJ application.

I’ll follow up by allowing, for the purposes of a civil conversation, that it’s something of a red-flag that the new admissions process is missing as many of the USAJMO qualifiers as it is (I’m taking it as an article of faith that this is happening even though there’s been no proof of it). But I reject the assertion that it should be an automatic qualifier.

It is also always possible that a student who is inexplicably rejected was turned down because they wrote in their essays that they didn’t want to go to TJ. That always exists as an option for students whose parents are pressuring them for something that they don’t want, and the Admissions Office is not permitted to inform the parents that it happened.

Missing as many as it is, is not that many, because very very few qualify in 7th grade for them to miss on the first place. The admissions is too late to catch 8th grade qualifiers I think, though they would still have 7th grade scores for AIME and AMC 8. USAJMO is just a glaring example of how they are not doing a good job of getting top students.

That would best be fixed by re-allowing teacher recc’s. JMO was not a thing at our MS so I wouldn’t want DCs dinged for not doing this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

There are two issues with the bolded.

1) The group that you’re disparaging is not in any sense “massive”. It constitutes less than 30% of each incoming class, and in many cases they come from schools where math advancement opportunities are extremely limited relative to FCPS.

2) It’s incorrect to call them “non-advanced”. Algebra 1 in 8th grade, while not as lofty as some of the other opportunities available, is still “advanced” by any definition. That’s why it’s always been a prerequisite for the TJ application.

I’ll follow up by allowing, for the purposes of a civil conversation, that it’s something of a red-flag that the new admissions process is missing as many of the USAJMO qualifiers as it is (I’m taking it as an article of faith that this is happening even though there’s been no proof of it). But I reject the assertion that it should be an automatic qualifier.

It is also always possible that a student who is inexplicably rejected was turned down because they wrote in their essays that they didn’t want to go to TJ. That always exists as an option for students whose parents are pressuring them for something that they don’t want, and the Admissions Office is not permitted to inform the parents that it happened.

Missing as many as it is, is not that many, because very very few qualify in 7th grade for them to miss on the first place. The admissions is too late to catch 8th grade qualifiers I think, though they would still have 7th grade scores for AIME and AMC 8. USAJMO is just a glaring example of how they are not doing a good job of getting top students.

That would best be fixed by re-allowing teacher recc’s. JMO was not a thing at our MS so I wouldn’t want DCs dinged for not doing this.

JMO(and AIME) is invite only - if your MS DC qualifies, they are among the best in the country and far better than 99.9% of TJ applicants.. only around 3-5 TJ 9th and 10th graders qualify each year.. I think most middle school admins don't even know what it is. But most middle schools should have AMC8... Which is the first step in the process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

There are two issues with the bolded.

1) The group that you’re disparaging is not in any sense “massive”. It constitutes less than 30% of each incoming class, and in many cases they come from schools where math advancement opportunities are extremely limited relative to FCPS.

2) It’s incorrect to call them “non-advanced”. Algebra 1 in 8th grade, while not as lofty as some of the other opportunities available, is still “advanced” by any definition. That’s why it’s always been a prerequisite for the TJ application.

I’ll follow up by allowing, for the purposes of a civil conversation, that it’s something of a red-flag that the new admissions process is missing as many of the USAJMO qualifiers as it is (I’m taking it as an article of faith that this is happening even though there’s been no proof of it). But I reject the assertion that it should be an automatic qualifier.

It is also always possible that a student who is inexplicably rejected was turned down because they wrote in their essays that they didn’t want to go to TJ. That always exists as an option for students whose parents are pressuring them for something that they don’t want, and the Admissions Office is not permitted to inform the parents that it happened.

Missing as many as it is, is not that many, because very very few qualify in 7th grade for them to miss on the first place. The admissions is too late to catch 8th grade qualifiers I think, though they would still have 7th grade scores for AIME and AMC 8. USAJMO is just a glaring example of how they are not doing a good job of getting top students.

That would best be fixed by re-allowing teacher recc’s. JMO was not a thing at our MS so I wouldn’t want DCs dinged for not doing this.

JMO(and AIME) is invite only - if your MS DC qualifies, they are among the best in the country and far better than 99.9% of TJ applicants.. only around 3-5 TJ 9th and 10th graders qualify each year.. I think most middle school admins don't even know what it is. But most middle schools should have AMC8... Which is the first step in the process.

Many do not have AMC8 either. It requires the school to register and proctor, parent volunteers can not jump in. Otherwise they have to take at another school.
AMC 8 is not the first step, but instead AMC 10, which students take elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hi, Omeish, are you running for re-election this year? You also said the battle of Iwo Jima was evil. So, I bet you are not anti-Asian.

This is important. The Coalition loves to prop up that "anti-Asian lol" quote from Omeish as a smoking gun... but with respect to this case it's actually the complete opposite. What she said was that Brabrand's Merit Lottery proposal and his rhetoric justifying it had an anti-Asian feel to it. Cannot imagine a more clear indicator that the School Board was sensitive to concerns about how the process would play out with Asian families as they worked to create greater accessibility for low-income families.

...nice try. But rather than addressing the actual question, you decided to bring up something out of context that she may or may not have said in another forum. Stricken for irrelevance and hearsay.

hearsay?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11795133/Controversial-member-woke-Virginia-school-board-slams-Battle-Iwo-Jima-evil.html

" Then, late last year, as the school district faced a federal class action suit For violating disabled students' rights, private text messages revealed Omeish also acknowledged anti-Asian bias in the admissions process for

'I mean there has been an anti asian feel underlying some of this, hate to say it lol,' Omeish texted a fellow board member in fall of 2020. 'They're discriminated against in this process too.' "

Hearsay refers to the Iwo Jima quote. The quote you reference is what I've been talking about and is Omeish telling her colleague that Brabrand's Merit Lottery proposal - which was not adopted and which the School Board voted down - was discriminatory against Asians.

Intent to lower Asian numbers did not change and that is problematic.

You're largely correct on that point. The School Board did not have an intent to, as you so inelegantly state, "lower Asian numbers". Their intent from the jump was to increase access for students of economic disadvantage and students from underrepresented schools. Some had been vocal about their desire to see a significant increase in the representation of Black and Hispanic students - this is not the same as a desire to see a lower percentage of Asian students.

Admission to elite school is a zero sum game as noted by the SCOTUS.

1) That doesn't matter.

2) In the case of TJ, it actually wasn't a zero-sum game because when FCPS changed the admissions process they actually increased the number of students in each class, which dramatically lowered the actual impact on the raw number of Asian students admitted in each class.

And the School Board then achieved their goal of reducing Asian student number at TJ by having about 24-27% fewer Asian students admitted in the following respective years.

Comparing the class of 2024 and class of 2025 admits, the # of Asian students went down 15.8%.

Have you accounted for the increase in class size from 480 to 550

The PP said reducing the student number, not the student percentage.

From 355 to 299 = 15.8% reduction.

So from 355/480 to 299/550, or from 74% to 54%.

Right. So PP was incorrect. The number of Asian students decreased by 15.8% and the percentage dropped from 74% to 54%. I'm guessing they added the seats to absorb some of the impacts.

Since racial quotas and racial manipulations at schools were abolished in 70s, is this the first instance where certain segment of student body has been suppressed by 20 percentage points (from 74% to 54%) just because of their Asian American race?

The admissions changes weren’t race-based, but they did alter the racial mix-up.

The changes primarily:
> increased the % of students from all over the county; every single MS is now represented

> increased the % of students from economically disadvantaged backgrounds

> increased % of female students

> decreased the % private school students

I believe it also increased the % of kids with SNs but I don’t have the #s on that.

But are they qualified or did they take spots from more qualified applicants?

Both can be true. They are qualified and there are likely more qualified applicants who didn't get a spot. That's how every selective school at every level works.

Most qualified should be admitted - didn't you hear about the new Supreme Court ruling reinforcing merit and ruling use of race to be unconstitutional?

Can you point to the line in the supreme court decision saying that the most qualified applicants have to be admitted?

Can you point to the part where I said "the supreme court decision says that the most qualified applicants have to be admitted"?

You said most qualified students should be admitted and then referenced the supreme court which said nothing about requiring the most qualified applicants to be admitted. Like it or not, geographic diversity is here to stay and if that means that some of the most qualified applicants don't get in, oh well

The geographic diversity does take away spots from more qualified candidates who are borderline, though the increase in class size reduces this a bit.
However, the most qualified students not getting in is caused more by other changes and not the geographic diversity. Top students are not being selected in favor of less qualified students at the same school.

if this artificially made-up hokum of manipulating every school composition to reflect the geographic diversity stands, which the supreme court has yet to decide on if it is legitimate and constitutional, then wont the black students at 3000+ schools where they are over-represented get displaced? for instance, one of the post here pointed out that Benjamin Banneker high school in DC has 72% black students, yet DC population has only 45% blacks. If this made-up rule of applying geographic racial quota is enforced there as well, what would happen to the lives of 72% - 45% = 27% of the black students who now attend that school? Also how is it not racist if political forces accuse the black families and their students of engaging in some type of cheating that caused their over-representation?

Nice try deflecting, bringing in other schools into the discussion. Let's focus on TJ and why it has a majority Asian American.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

There are two issues with the bolded.

1) The group that you’re disparaging is not in any sense “massive”. It constitutes less than 30% of each incoming class, and in many cases they come from schools where math advancement opportunities are extremely limited relative to FCPS.

2) It’s incorrect to call them “non-advanced”. Algebra 1 in 8th grade, while not as lofty as some of the other opportunities available, is still “advanced” by any definition. That’s why it’s always been a prerequisite for the TJ application.

I’ll follow up by allowing, for the purposes of a civil conversation, that it’s something of a red-flag that the new admissions process is missing as many of the USAJMO qualifiers as it is (I’m taking it as an article of faith that this is happening even though there’s been no proof of it). But I reject the assertion that it should be an automatic qualifier.

It is also always possible that a student who is inexplicably rejected was turned down because they wrote in their essays that they didn’t want to go to TJ. That always exists as an option for students whose parents are pressuring them for something that they don’t want, and the Admissions Office is not permitted to inform the parents that it happened.

Missing as many as it is, is not that many, because very very few qualify in 7th grade for them to miss on the first place. The admissions is too late to catch 8th grade qualifiers I think, though they would still have 7th grade scores for AIME and AMC 8. USAJMO is just a glaring example of how they are not doing a good job of getting top students.

That would best be fixed by re-allowing teacher recc’s. JMO was not a thing at our MS so I wouldn’t want DCs dinged for not doing this.

It starts with taking the AMC 10 at a highschool or math enrichment center within driving distance (like the SAT). Odds are it's offered at your local high school, or if not, at a high school or math center within driving distance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

There are two issues with the bolded.

1) The group that you’re disparaging is not in any sense “massive”. It constitutes less than 30% of each incoming class, and in many cases they come from schools where math advancement opportunities are extremely limited relative to FCPS.

2) It’s incorrect to call them “non-advanced”. Algebra 1 in 8th grade, while not as lofty as some of the other opportunities available, is still “advanced” by any definition. That’s why it’s always been a prerequisite for the TJ application.

I’ll follow up by allowing, for the purposes of a civil conversation, that it’s something of a red-flag that the new admissions process is missing as many of the USAJMO qualifiers as it is (I’m taking it as an article of faith that this is happening even though there’s been no proof of it). But I reject the assertion that it should be an automatic qualifier.

It is also always possible that a student who is inexplicably rejected was turned down because they wrote in their essays that they didn’t want to go to TJ. That always exists as an option for students whose parents are pressuring them for something that they don’t want, and the Admissions Office is not permitted to inform the parents that it happened.

Not enough people pay attention to this point. DS (rising sophomore at TJ) told me back when he was applying that two of his friends did this after they left the Student Portrait Sheet testing. Both were Alg2 students in grade 8 but neither wanted to go to TJ, and they apparently used this loophole to get out. Parents to this day blame the new admissions process, when in reality they were rejected because they wrote on the SPS that they had no interest in attending.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

There are two issues with the bolded.

1) The group that you’re disparaging is not in any sense “massive”. It constitutes less than 30% of each incoming class, and in many cases they come from schools where math advancement opportunities are extremely limited relative to FCPS.

2) It’s incorrect to call them “non-advanced”. Algebra 1 in 8th grade, while not as lofty as some of the other opportunities available, is still “advanced” by any definition. That’s why it’s always been a prerequisite for the TJ application.

I’ll follow up by allowing, for the purposes of a civil conversation, that it’s something of a red-flag that the new admissions process is missing as many of the USAJMO qualifiers as it is (I’m taking it as an article of faith that this is happening even though there’s been no proof of it). But I reject the assertion that it should be an automatic qualifier.

It is also always possible that a student who is inexplicably rejected was turned down because they wrote in their essays that they didn’t want to go to TJ. That always exists as an option for students whose parents are pressuring them for something that they don’t want, and the Admissions Office is not permitted to inform the parents that it happened.

Not enough people pay attention to this point. DS (rising sophomore at TJ) told me back when he was applying that two of his friends did this after they left the Student Portrait Sheet testing. Both were Alg2 students in grade 8 but neither wanted to go to TJ, and they apparently used this loophole to get out. Parents to this day blame the new admissions process, when in reality they were rejected because they wrote on the SPS that they had no interest in attending.

Because it’s a unmeasurable anecdote based on ‘DS said.’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.

There are two issues with the bolded.

1) The group that you’re disparaging is not in any sense “massive”. It constitutes less than 30% of each incoming class, and in many cases they come from schools where math advancement opportunities are extremely limited relative to FCPS.

2) It’s incorrect to call them “non-advanced”. Algebra 1 in 8th grade, while not as lofty as some of the other opportunities available, is still “advanced” by any definition. That’s why it’s always been a prerequisite for the TJ application.

I’ll follow up by allowing, for the purposes of a civil conversation, that it’s something of a red-flag that the new admissions process is missing as many of the USAJMO qualifiers as it is (I’m taking it as an article of faith that this is happening even though there’s been no proof of it). But I reject the assertion that it should be an automatic qualifier.

It is also always possible that a student who is inexplicably rejected was turned down because they wrote in their essays that they didn’t want to go to TJ. That always exists as an option for students whose parents are pressuring them for something that they don’t want, and the Admissions Office is not permitted to inform the parents that it happened.

Not enough people pay attention to this point. DS (rising sophomore at TJ) told me back when he was applying that two of his friends did this after they left the Student Portrait Sheet testing. Both were Alg2 students in grade 8 but neither wanted to go to TJ, and they apparently used this loophole to get out. Parents to this day blame the new admissions process, when in reality they were rejected because they wrote on the SPS that they had no interest in attending.

Because it’s a unmeasurable anecdote based on ‘DS said.’

Yep. They are only "TRUE" when someone "says" about seeing the same questions in Test prep center.
All other instances of "hearsay" e.g. when someone says the new class is below average, 2024 was the last TJHSST class, top kids did not make it in new admission process, some people are surprised "how did them make it?", grades are curved, standard is lowered, grading is relaxed, blah.. blah are all "FALSE"