Federal judge rules that admissions changes at nation’s top public school discriminate against Asian

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

TJ is a county/state/government sponsored school, run with taxpayer dollars.

The criteria to get in shouldn’t be on what level of advancement the creator of the school offers, not extracurricular stuff. This ensures that your sel or parental understanding doesn’t hurt the child’s opportunities.

If the super enrichment is something that is right for a child, it should be done regardless of TJ acceptance chances. If you’re bringing up TJ then you’re enriching for the wrong reasons.

[Anonymous]

^ The criteria to get in SHOULD be on what level of advancement the creator of the school offers, not extracurricular stuff.

[Anonymous]

For TJ, advanced STEM courses are prerequisites instead of extracurricular stuff. Before the admission change, no TJ student took TJ Math 1, which is now taken by a lot.

Anonymous wrote:^ The criteria to get in SHOULD be on what level of advancement the creator of the school offers, not extracurricular stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For TJ, advanced STEM courses are prerequisites instead of extracurricular stuff. Before the admission change, no TJ student took TJ Math 1, which is now taken by a lot.

Anonymous wrote:^ The criteria to get in SHOULD be on what level of advancement the creator of the school offers, not extracurricular stuff.

There are a lot of reasons why a kid will not be on the highest math possible. A particular reason is that the county is not transparent at all on how to advance in math. It’s a stupid game, that you can pay to play. Some kids can catch up regardless, but others are left behind, and not because they aren’t capable.

On top of that the old system relied on math skills acquired through outside enrichment. - if the county didn’t let you take the higher math, you’d outsource it and do better on the Q test. It was really not fair.


If you think that only the kids who take the higher math should get in, in a taxpayer funded school, you’re certainly coming from a place of privilege and ignorance.

[Anonymous]

You can stay at base schools, which are also taxpayer funded.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For TJ, advanced STEM courses are prerequisites instead of extracurricular stuff. Before the admission change, no TJ student took TJ Math 1, which is now taken by a lot.

Anonymous wrote:^ The criteria to get in SHOULD be on what level of advancement the creator of the school offers, not extracurricular stuff.

There are a lot of reasons why a kid will not be on the highest math possible. A particular reason is that the county is not transparent at all on how to advance in math. It’s a stupid game, that you can pay to play. Some kids can catch up regardless, but others are left behind, and not because they aren’t capable.

On top of that the old system relied on math skills acquired through outside enrichment. - if the county didn’t let you take the higher math, you’d outsource it and do better on the Q test. It was really not fair.


If you think that only the kids who take the higher math should get in, in a taxpayer funded school, you’re certainly coming from a place of privilege and ignorance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

when our kid went through t a few years ago, the parents could refer their kid. We did, and our kid got in. Two of DC's friends' parents didn't bother, so they stayed in the "base school." They all would up at Uva. Surprisingly several of DC's AAP colleagues wound up at JMU or VCU and the like, which surprised me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For TJ, advanced STEM courses are prerequisites instead of extracurricular stuff. Before the admission change, no TJ student took TJ Math 1, which is now taken by a lot.

Anonymous wrote:^ The criteria to get in SHOULD be on what level of advancement the creator of the school offers, not extracurricular stuff.

There are a lot of reasons why a kid will not be on the highest math possible. A particular reason is that the county is not transparent at all on how to advance in math. It’s a stupid game, that you can pay to play. Some kids can catch up regardless, but others are left behind, and not because they aren’t capable.

On top of that the old system relied on math skills acquired through outside enrichment. - if the county didn’t let you take the higher math, you’d outsource it and do better on the Q test. It was really not fair.


If you think that only the kids who take the higher math should get in, in a taxpayer funded school, you’re certainly coming from a place of privilege and ignorance.

There are two math&TJ related discussions here that should be separated:

1. Should TJ admissions favor those applicants that have already taken Geometry, Algebra II (or higher) in middle school? For this question, there are valid arguments on both sides. Many pyramids don't give math-talented kids the opportunity to take AlgII in middle school, and the AAP program at many elementary schools do a bad job at identifying and tracking math-talented kids, so they might not even be tracked to take Geometry in 8th. That doesn't mean these kids are not math-talented and undeserving of TJ's specialized curriculum. Whether they are more or less deserving of a TJ spot than an AlgII 8th grader depends on a our societal views of education equity v. opportunity - I don't think we can debate out an objective solution to this.

2. Does TJ's admissions omit the most math-talented kids in the county? As a PP observed, several USAJMO kids don't get into TJ. By any objective standard, these are the most math-talented kids in the county (and the country). These students are definitely deserving of TJ's opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For TJ, advanced STEM courses are prerequisites instead of extracurricular stuff. Before the admission change, no TJ student took TJ Math 1, which is now taken by a lot.

Anonymous wrote:^ The criteria to get in SHOULD be on what level of advancement the creator of the school offers, not extracurricular stuff.

There are a lot of reasons why a kid will not be on the highest math possible. A particular reason is that the county is not transparent at all on how to advance in math. It’s a stupid game, that you can pay to play. Some kids can catch up regardless, but others are left behind, and not because they aren’t capable.

On top of that the old system relied on math skills acquired through outside enrichment. - if the county didn’t let you take the higher math, you’d outsource it and do better on the Q test. It was really not fair.


If you think that only the kids who take the higher math should get in, in a taxpayer funded school, you’re certainly coming from a place of privilege and ignorance.

There are two math&TJ related discussions here that should be separated:

1. Should TJ admissions favor those applicants that have already taken Geometry, Algebra II (or higher) in middle school? For this question, there are valid arguments on both sides. Many pyramids don't give math-talented kids the opportunity to take AlgII in middle school, and the AAP program at many elementary schools do a bad job at identifying and tracking math-talented kids, so they might not even be tracked to take Geometry in 8th. That doesn't mean these kids are not math-talented and undeserving of TJ's specialized curriculum. Whether they are more or less deserving of a TJ spot than an AlgII 8th grader depends on a our societal views of education equity v. opportunity - I don't think we can debate out an objective solution to this.

2. Does TJ's admissions omit the most math-talented kids in the county? As a PP observed, several USAJMO kids don't get into TJ. By any objective standard, these are the most math-talented kids in the county (and the country). These students are definitely deserving of TJ's opportunities.

As a strongly pro-reform advocate - I posted detailed admissions stats in another thread that generally support the reforms - I am firmly in the camp of "FCPS needs to work harder to identify the right kids from each school for the allocated seats".

To me it starts with gathering more information about each kid and then engaging in an actual holistic process - not a rubric-oriented point-based system that just spits out admits.

It would not require that much investment for FCPS to hire evaluators with actual STEM education experience to look at these applications on a school by school basis. Perhaps a small group could be responsible for the larger centers of applications, but literally one person could handle the applicants for each of the less represented schools and sort them into three groups: allocated seats, unallocated candidates, and non-candidates. Reach out to the non-candidates early to let them know that they can move on, and then once you have all of the allocated seats figured out, move to the pool of unallocated seat candidates and just work through them to create a strong, balanced class.

But you have to get more information than what you're getting now, and there has to be some role for the school in the process, whether it's through reimagined teacher recommendations or some input from the TJ liaison counselor at each school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For TJ, advanced STEM courses are prerequisites instead of extracurricular stuff. Before the admission change, no TJ student took TJ Math 1, which is now taken by a lot.

Anonymous wrote:^ The criteria to get in SHOULD be on what level of advancement the creator of the school offers, not extracurricular stuff.

There are a lot of reasons why a kid will not be on the highest math possible. A particular reason is that the county is not transparent at all on how to advance in math. It’s a stupid game, that you can pay to play. Some kids can catch up regardless, but others are left behind, and not because they aren’t capable.

On top of that the old system relied on math skills acquired through outside enrichment. - if the county didn’t let you take the higher math, you’d outsource it and do better on the Q test. It was really not fair.


If you think that only the kids who take the higher math should get in, in a taxpayer funded school, you’re certainly coming from a place of privilege and ignorance.

There are two math&TJ related discussions here that should be separated:

1. Should TJ admissions favor those applicants that have already taken Geometry, Algebra II (or higher) in middle school? For this question, there are valid arguments on both sides. Many pyramids don't give math-talented kids the opportunity to take AlgII in middle school, and the AAP program at many elementary schools do a bad job at identifying and tracking math-talented kids, so they might not even be tracked to take Geometry in 8th. That doesn't mean these kids are not math-talented and undeserving of TJ's specialized curriculum. Whether they are more or less deserving of a TJ spot than an AlgII 8th grader depends on a our societal views of education equity v. opportunity - I don't think we can debate out an objective solution to this.

2. Does TJ's admissions omit the most math-talented kids in the county? As a PP observed, several USAJMO kids don't get into TJ. By any objective standard, these are the most math-talented kids in the county (and the country). These students are definitely deserving of TJ's opportunities.

Being excellent in math does not mean you’ll be successful in stem. While I think some achievements should be at least a shoe in, it may not be the best thing.

[Anonymous]

^ The point being that stem is a combination and not each of them separately.

A kid need not go to TJ to pursue any one of them individually. It’s the integration of the stem components that is very special to TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ The point being that stem is a combination and not each of them separately.

A kid need not go to TJ to pursue any one of them individually. It’s the integration of the stem components that is very special to TJ.

Of course a kid doesn't need to go to TJ to pursue a interest solely in mathematics. But it would be disengenuous to say that strength in math is not highly correlated to strength in STEM. And these kids applied to TJ, meaning they wanted to pursue TJ's STEM-curriculum. The current (and previous) admissions processes have denied these kids the opportunities that are specific to TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you expect from an elite school like TJ? If a kid can not handle the most rigorous STEM courses, he or she should bow out and stay at base schools.

Anonymous wrote:I see a lot of folks on this forum making the assertion that only students who are able to take TJ’s most advanced classes should be admitted, or that those students should be considered first for admission before considering anyone else.

If FCPS were to do this, it would incentivize parents to - frequently inappropriately - push their children into more and more advanced classes in order to optimize their admissions prospects, and not necessarily because it’s in the kid’s best academic interests.

This point alone should be adequate to bury that pernicious narrative.

I think you missed the point here. We don’t need parents inappropriately pushing their kids.

AAP already provides a method to evaluate the most capable FCPS students and is available to all through multiple identification approaches.

It doesn’t make sense to select kids at a base school over a center kid who lives in the same neighborhood and is part of the base catchment area. This assumes both show similar baseline stats but one is in advanced math and Level IV.

Just seems silly as the base school kid had the same opportunities, evaluations and as the AAP student. More than likely also live down the street from each other.

What are the opportunities in 7th and 8th grade that are identical between the AAP and base school students? It sounds to me like there's a suggestion here that we should presume students to be either on "TJ" or "non-TJ" tracks from a very early age.

AAP access is available throughout the entirety of elementary school. Not everyone is in pool in 2nd grade. New arrivals to FCPS in 5th grade can be placed into AAP the following year. I think the kid who spent their entire elementary years in FCPS and was not identified but is now somehow equally capable of a level IV student with straight As at a center and in Geometry in 8th grade is an outlier, statistically speaking and is not partaking in the same rigor either. This kids could be neighbors as well with the same SES.

Obviously AAP isnt a requirement, but to ignore this reality does the entire advanced academics program a disservice. Whats funny is that Young Scholars is usually tied to AAP in elementary schools for those that qualify, and YS receive a bump in their admissions, but AAP does not?

AAP is "advanced academics" whereas TH is about "Science and Technology". There are many kids in DC's AAP class that are much stronger in English and Social Studies than in Math and Science. These kids are advanced academically, but not suited for a STEM-focused education. That why in middle school, FCPS offers honors-math and sciences to all students. So that STEM kids who are not "advanced" in English can pursue more rigorous courses in their stronger subjects.

This is true. Thats probably why not everyone who is in AAP applies to TJ. But there are many many AAP students who are also STEM oriented and completing higher level academics to include Math and more rigorous AAP science. This specifically addresses the massive group of non-advanced math students getting in over who FCPS has identified as the most advanced learners in the county.

Those same students also had the same opportunity of AAP. They were not selected/approved in a gate-kept process by the county. Now another gate-kept admissions process in the TJ application, is choosing to overlook the very students they identified as gifted/advanced learners to include the areas of STEM in favor of students the county previously did not select as advanced learners to include areas of STEM.

Its intellectually inconsistent especially given the preferential treatment for young scholars, a sort of AAP complimentary program.