Elite universities, Ivy Plus/Equivalents...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This has pretty much been the case for a very long time. And so maybe it always will be the case (especially at country clubs in the Northeast...)
But......in my opinion, it's happening...it's really happening....The Ivy League and even HYP are starting to leak some of their cachet. Is anyone else sensing this? I have my theories as to why, but I believe it's happening. Maybe it won't grow or continue, but in the meantime, schools like Chicago are benefitting.

We're a young country. Even the most prestigious of universities in the U.S. would look anything like they do currently if you went back too far. Princeton was only named Princeton in 1896. Stanford was founded in 1885. The Yale gothic college buildings that look the oldest were constructed in the 1920s and 1930s. Same for the Harvard houses. Compare the oldest existing building at Harvard, a simple building from about 1720 with the soaring King's College Chapel at Cambridge, which was finished 200 years earlier.

I suspect this is a very big part of it. Another important thing to consider is that the U.S. is HUGE, as someone on the first page of this thread pointed out. Let's see, if we were to compare ourselves to the "second" world leader in higher education, the U.K., the numbers make sense. The U.S. is about 6 times larger the U.K. in terms of population. Even if we were to take JUST the two tippy top representative universities from the U.K., Oxford and Cambridge, and adjusted to scale, it would mean we have about 12 elite-tier universities here in the states. That should make sense. If we were to expand the comparison pool to other prestigious U.K. universities like UCL, LSE, KCL and Imperial, that would mean we have more than 36 strong, world-class universities in the U.S.

This all tracks. The folks who are only pre-occupied with 7 or 8 of America's top universities, or think they're inherently more special because they happen to belong to the same sports league as Harvard, are misguided and living in the past. Yes, social prestige is a factor, but outcomes from the other Ivy Plus schools are just as strong. But even arguing for that should be a non-issue - anyone who thinks the aforementioned colleges are NOT prestigious is a complete and utter dunce.

This makes even less sense. So India or China should have 48 elite-tier universities each? The list you conjured up doesn't exist in the real world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This has pretty much been the case for a very long time. And so maybe it always will be the case (especially at country clubs in the Northeast...)
But......in my opinion, it's happening...it's really happening....The Ivy League and even HYP are starting to leak some of their cachet. Is anyone else sensing this? I have my theories as to why, but I believe it's happening. Maybe it won't grow or continue, but in the meantime, schools like Chicago are benefitting.

We're a young country. Even the most prestigious of universities in the U.S. would look anything like they do currently if you went back too far. Princeton was only named Princeton in 1896. Stanford was founded in 1885. The Yale gothic college buildings that look the oldest were constructed in the 1920s and 1930s. Same for the Harvard houses. Compare the oldest existing building at Harvard, a simple building from about 1720 with the soaring King's College Chapel at Cambridge, which was finished 200 years earlier.

I suspect this is a very big part of it. Another important thing to consider is that the U.S. is HUGE, as someone on the first page of this thread pointed out. Let's see, if we were to compare ourselves to the "second" world leader in higher education, the U.K., the numbers make sense. The U.S. is about 6 times larger the U.K. in terms of population. Even if we were to take JUST the two tippy top representative universities from the U.K., Oxford and Cambridge, and adjusted to scale, it would mean we have about 12 elite-tier universities here in the states. That should make sense. If we were to expand the comparison pool to other prestigious U.K. universities like UCL, LSE, KCL and Imperial, that would mean we have more than 36 strong, world-class universities in the U.S.

This all tracks. The folks who are only pre-occupied with 7 or 8 of America's top universities, or think they're inherently more special because they happen to belong to the same sports league as Harvard, are misguided and living in the past. Yes, social prestige is a factor, but outcomes from the other Ivy Plus schools are just as strong. But even arguing for that should be a non-issue - anyone who thinks the aforementioned colleges are NOT prestigious is a complete and utter dunce.

This makes even less sense. So India or China should have 48 elite-tier universities each? The list you conjured up doesn't exist in the real world.

U.K. and U.S. are broadly comparable; India and China less so. With that said I would not be surprised if in terms of sheer numbers, those countries have "48 times" the number of highly gifted and intelligent students that would merit a spot at a world-class university, which also explains the large numbers of international students those countries send to both the U.S. and the U.K. (oh, what a coincidence!).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivy League has been around for almost 100 years. The Big Three, a term used for HYP, goes back further. Their prestige takes a long time to build. They don't need US News. US News needs the Ivy League to sell its magazine. MIT and Stanford are also widely respected as elite academic institutions. The rest are just good schools. They don't have the history and the prestige as those 10 schools.

Bingo. Strivers are clueless. It's sad when their kids get into one of their two tier schools and then they realize nobody cares, so they desperately trying to hype up how great their kid's tier two is. Unless they're at HYPSM or an Ivy, nobody cares. Nobody is impressed by a NORTHWESTERN or EMORY or CHICAGO resume. They're fine schools but no parent is going to pester you about 'how'd you do it,' you know. People just don't care and none of your hot air and forum posting is going to convince people otherwise.

This has pretty much been the case for a very long time. And so maybe it always will be the case (especially at country clubs in the Northeast...)
But......in my opinion, it's happening...it's really happening....The Ivy League and even HYP are starting to leak some of their cachet. Is anyone else sensing this? I have my theories as to why, but I believe it's happening. Maybe it won't grow or continue, but in the meantime, schools like Chicago are benefitting.

I don't know about Chicago as it's always had more of an academic prestige, and probably not for Emory (not sure why it's included here), but Northwestern at least has had long ties to the moneyed elite. Lot of old money families, especially from the Midwest and West, have gone through Northwestern. Generations of the Buffetts, for example (yes, as in Warren Buffett's family). Similar story for Duke and at this point, probably even USC.

It's less that the Ivy League is losing its cachet, and perhaps more that people from their cloistered bubbles in the Northeast are wising up to the fact that there are many more schools outside of the Ancient Eight that are just as elite? This isn't a recent development by any means.

The only development is that the Ivies (and Stanford) are accepting students from a wider range of backgrounds, so some people who might have expected their kid to at least get into a Penn or Brown are seeing them turned down and now have to expand the pool of "elite universities" to justify the arrogance they are hard-wired to display.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivy League has been around for almost 100 years. The Big Three, a term used for HYP, goes back further. Their prestige takes a long time to build. They don't need US News. US News needs the Ivy League to sell its magazine. MIT and Stanford are also widely respected as elite academic institutions. The rest are just good schools. They don't have the history and the prestige as those 10 schools.

Bingo. Strivers are clueless. It's sad when their kids get into one of their two tier schools and then they realize nobody cares, so they desperately trying to hype up how great their kid's tier two is. Unless they're at HYPSM or an Ivy, nobody cares. Nobody is impressed by a NORTHWESTERN or EMORY or CHICAGO resume. They're fine schools but no parent is going to pester you about 'how'd you do it,' you know. People just don't care and none of your hot air and forum posting is going to convince people otherwise.

This has pretty much been the case for a very long time. And so maybe it always will be the case (especially at country clubs in the Northeast...)
But......in my opinion, it's happening...it's really happening....The Ivy League and even HYP are starting to leak some of their cachet. Is anyone else sensing this? I have my theories as to why, but I believe it's happening. Maybe it won't grow or continue, but in the meantime, schools like Chicago are benefitting.

I don't know about Chicago as it's always had more of an academic prestige, and probably not for Emory (not sure why it's included here), but Northwestern at least has had long ties to the moneyed elite. Lot of old money families, especially from the Midwest and West, have gone through Northwestern. Generations of the Buffetts, for example (yes, as in Warren Buffett's family). Similar story for Duke and at this point, probably even USC.

It's less that the Ivy League is losing its cachet, and perhaps more that people from their cloistered bubbles in the Northeast are wising up to the fact that there are many more schools outside of the Ancient Eight that are just as elite? This isn't a recent development by any means.

The only development is that the Ivies (and Stanford) are accepting students from a wider range of backgrounds, so some people who might have expected their kid to at least get into a Penn or Brown are seeing them turned down and now have to expand the pool of "elite universities" to justify the arrogance they are hard-wired to display.

Tired and lazy misconstrual of a century-long development. No new “development” here. And the same “hard-wired arrogance” you’re accusing these non-Ivies of are manifold and significantly more obnoxious at the actual Ivy League.

[Anonymous]

Frankly, only strivers on the outside looking in think or pretend tier twos are on the cusp of elite. The truly elite have history, traditions, patina, they offer status, a tightknit network, they have a distinct vibe and ethos that can not be replicated at the inferior wannabes, and their alums aren't ever confused for nitwit state school grads. When parents hear your child is at an Ivy, Stanford or MIT they're intrigued, they wanna know how you did it, who they're dating, what they're studying, who they're rubbing elbows with. Nobody freakin' cares about your kid tailgating in Nashville or dodging snowstorms in a purple hoodie in boring suburban Cook County or dodging armed robberies in dreary south side Chicago or dusting off Newt Gingrich's dissertation in Atlanta. The tier twos are full of smart kids, sure, but smart workerbees are a dime a dozen. Truly impressive difference makers go to truly impressive schools – they and their families won't settle for anything less. Maybe they don't get into Harvard but they do get into Penn or MIT or Brown, of course. The more you desperate strivers keep this up the more pathetic and insecure you look. Look, your child got into a good school – be proud, but please cease this whole pretending you know anything about the Ivy League charade. You don't know what you don't know, you do not comprehend what your child is missing out on. And the reality is no hiring committee has ever said "we must hire that Emory/UChicago/Rice/Northwestern/Vandy candidate!" It's actually laughable to think those schools pop off any CV. Most people haven't even heard of the tier twos, and if they have, they don't really care about them. Just the honest truth.

[Anonymous]

Gag me.

[Anonymous]

LOL. Poor, insecure Dartmouth Man feeling threatened and overcompensating as such. Had a good chuckle at this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, only strivers on the outside looking in think or pretend tier twos are on the cusp of elite. The truly elite have history, traditions, patina, they offer status, a tightknit network, they have a distinct vibe and ethos that can not be replicated at the inferior wannabes, and their alums aren't ever confused for nitwit state school grads. When parents hear your child is at an Ivy, Stanford or MIT they're intrigued, they wanna know how you did it, who they're dating, what they're studying, who they're rubbing elbows with. Nobody freakin' cares about your kid tailgating in Nashville or dodging snowstorms in a purple hoodie in boring suburban Cook County or dodging armed robberies in dreary south side Chicago or dusting off Newt Gingrich's dissertation in Atlanta. The tier twos are full of smart kids, sure, but smart workerbees are a dime a dozen. Truly impressive difference makers go to truly impressive schools – they and their families won't settle for anything less. Maybe they don't get into Harvard but they do get into Penn or MIT or Brown, of course. The more you desperate strivers keep this up the more pathetic and insecure you look. Look, your child got into a good school – be proud, but please cease this whole pretending you know anything about the Ivy League charade. You don't know what you don't know, you do not comprehend what your child is missing out on. And the reality is no hiring committee has ever said "we must hire that Emory/UChicago/Rice/Northwestern/Vandy candidate!" It's actually laughable to think those schools pop off any CV. Most people haven't even heard of the tier twos, and if they have, they don't really care about them. Just the honest truth.

How much of a loser nutjob do you have to be to write (and terribly) such angry drivel?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, only strivers on the outside looking in think or pretend tier twos are on the cusp of elite. The truly elite have history, traditions, patina, they offer status, a tightknit network, they have a distinct vibe and ethos that can not be replicated at the inferior wannabes, and their alums aren't ever confused for nitwit state school grads. When parents hear your child is at an Ivy, Stanford or MIT they're intrigued, they wanna know how you did it, who they're dating, what they're studying, who they're rubbing elbows with. Nobody freakin' cares about your kid tailgating in Nashville or dodging snowstorms in a purple hoodie in boring suburban Cook County or dodging armed robberies in dreary south side Chicago or dusting off Newt Gingrich's dissertation in Atlanta. The tier twos are full of smart kids, sure, but smart workerbees are a dime a dozen. Truly impressive difference makers go to truly impressive schools – they and their families won't settle for anything less. Maybe they don't get into Harvard but they do get into Penn or MIT or Brown, of course. The more you desperate strivers keep this up the more pathetic and insecure you look. Look, your child got into a good school – be proud, but please cease this whole pretending you know anything about the Ivy League charade. You don't know what you don't know, you do not comprehend what your child is missing out on. And the reality is no hiring committee has ever said "we must hire that Emory/UChicago/Rice/Northwestern/Vandy candidate!" It's actually laughable to think those schools pop off any CV. Most people haven't even heard of the tier twos, and if they have, they don't really care about them. Just the honest truth.

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, only strivers on the outside looking in think or pretend tier twos are on the cusp of elite. The truly elite have history, traditions, patina, they offer status, a tightknit network, they have a distinct vibe and ethos that can not be replicated at the inferior wannabes, and their alums aren't ever confused for nitwit state school grads. When parents hear your child is at an Ivy, Stanford or MIT they're intrigued, they wanna know how you did it, who they're dating, what they're studying, who they're rubbing elbows with. Nobody freakin' cares about your kid tailgating in Nashville or dodging snowstorms in a purple hoodie in boring suburban Cook County or dodging armed robberies in dreary south side Chicago or dusting off Newt Gingrich's dissertation in Atlanta. The tier twos are full of smart kids, sure, but smart workerbees are a dime a dozen. Truly impressive difference makers go to truly impressive schools – they and their families won't settle for anything less. Maybe they don't get into Harvard but they do get into Penn or MIT or Brown, of course. The more you desperate strivers keep this up the more pathetic and insecure you look. Look, your child got into a good school – be proud, but please cease this whole pretending you know anything about the Ivy League charade. You don't know what you don't know, you do not comprehend what your child is missing out on. And the reality is no hiring committee has ever said "we must hire that Emory/UChicago/Rice/Northwestern/Vandy candidate!" It's actually laughable to think those schools pop off any CV. Most people haven't even heard of the tier twos, and if they have, they don't really care about them. Just the honest truth.

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

You people are absolutely delusional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, only strivers on the outside looking in think or pretend tier twos are on the cusp of elite. The truly elite have history, traditions, patina, they offer status, a tightknit network, they have a distinct vibe and ethos that can not be replicated at the inferior wannabes, and their alums aren't ever confused for nitwit state school grads. When parents hear your child is at an Ivy, Stanford or MIT they're intrigued, they wanna know how you did it, who they're dating, what they're studying, who they're rubbing elbows with. Nobody freakin' cares about your kid tailgating in Nashville or dodging snowstorms in a purple hoodie in boring suburban Cook County or dodging armed robberies in dreary south side Chicago or dusting off Newt Gingrich's dissertation in Atlanta. The tier twos are full of smart kids, sure, but smart workerbees are a dime a dozen. Truly impressive difference makers go to truly impressive schools – they and their families won't settle for anything less. Maybe they don't get into Harvard but they do get into Penn or MIT or Brown, of course. The more you desperate strivers keep this up the more pathetic and insecure you look. Look, your child got into a good school – be proud, but please cease this whole pretending you know anything about the Ivy League charade. You don't know what you don't know, you do not comprehend what your child is missing out on. And the reality is no hiring committee has ever said "we must hire that Emory/UChicago/Rice/Northwestern/Vandy candidate!" It's actually laughable to think those schools pop off any CV. Most people haven't even heard of the tier twos, and if they have, they don't really care about them. Just the honest truth.

Hahahahahha

Delusional, pathetic person.

- someone who has experience with schools in both of the “tiers” you’ve decided exist. I doubt you have direct experience with either.

[Anonymous]

If tier twos are so great why are the strivers who go to them always so desperate to get into a grad program at a real elite. Because they want to shove that second-tier stench further down their LinkedIn. They want to be 'Penn Law gal/gal' they want a Penn bumper sticker they watch to grab a coffee in an oversized Penn crew neck sweatshirt... they want to forget all about their insecure lower-rung years. And from my orbit, the tier two alums tend to marry down; typically a hometown main squeeze or a public university grad they met on tinder. In contrast to their elite movers and shaver peers who tend to wed a top-rung peer; stabilizing the family's hierarchy, genes, traditions, manners, and social graces.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If tier twos are so great why are the strivers who go to them always so desperate to get into a grad program at a real elite. Because they want to shove that second-tier stench further down their LinkedIn. They want to be 'Penn Law gal/gal' they want a Penn bumper sticker they watch to grab a coffee in an oversized Penn crew neck sweatshirt... they want to forget all about their insecure lower-rung years. And from my orbit, the tier two alums tend to marry down; typically a hometown main squeeze or a public university grad they met on tinder. In contrast to their elite movers and shaver peers who tend to wed a top-rung peer; stabilizing the family's hierarchy, genes, traditions, manners, and social graces.

WTH?

I can’t decide if you’re a troll or just a moron. I hope, for your sake, that you’re a troll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If tier twos are so great why are the strivers who go to them always so desperate to get into a grad program at a real elite. Because they want to shove that second-tier stench further down their LinkedIn. They want to be 'Penn Law gal/gal' they want a Penn bumper sticker they watch to grab a coffee in an oversized Penn crew neck sweatshirt... they want to forget all about their insecure lower-rung years. And from my orbit, the tier two alums tend to marry down; typically a hometown main squeeze or a public university grad they met on tinder. In contrast to their elite movers and shaver peers who tend to wed a top-rung peer; stabilizing the family's hierarchy, genes, traditions, manners, and social graces.

WTH?

I can’t decide if you’re a troll or just a moron. I hope, for your sake, that you’re a troll.

No, this is par for the course for how Dart and UPenn grads tend to behave. They don’t realize how ridiculous they make themselves look.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coming across the JHU thread and it’s clear there are some people unfamiliar with American colleges who think Ivy League = the best. It is worth repeating that there are just as many universities NOT in the Ivy League that are just as good and just as prestigious as the Ivies.

Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Cal Tech, JHU, Northwestern, Duke

If we expand to LACS, add Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore and Pomona.

If these schools were to just start their own separate academic “league,” they would rival the Ivy League, easily.

They might be as "good", but they are certainly not as prestigious.

Even a "Ivy" like Dartmouth, which is in reality is an above-average LAC, would be more prestigious in the minds of the wealthy and powerful than say, JHU or Chicago. Entirely due to its association with the Ivy League and schools like Harvard and Princeton. Sure, upper-middle-class educated folks might think otherwise, but they are middle-managers, not board room members.

For the millionth time: Dartmouth is a university.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmouth_College

If you are uninformed about facts how can your opinion be informed?

If it needs additional explanation, its prestige is already in question.