Elite universities, Ivy Plus/Equivalents...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fact you all use the word prestige and elite when discussing Education says it all.

We’re hardly unique in this regard. “Elite universities” is an extremely common designation, whether with positive or less than positive connotations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivy League is a sports category. There are hundreds of excellent colleges and universities in the U.S. It is a giant country.

It’s clear that the Ivy League has grown in the popular imagination to be more than just a sports league. It’s become a sort of designation or a shorthand for prestigious, top universities. Laypeople are rarely sure of which schools actually constitute the Ivy League, except for Harvard and Yale. Most also assume Stanford is one. I’ve met college basketball enthusiasts who thought Duke was an Ivy, and I know college football fans who assumed Northwestern was an Ivy. It’s a colloquialism that’s anchored in a slightly different reality from what most people think.

Any college basketball enthusiast would not only know that Duke was in the ACC, but would have thoughts on their likelihood of beating UNC that year and how many ACC schools might make the NCAA tourney. This is just dumb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivy League is a sports category. There are hundreds of excellent colleges and universities in the U.S. It is a giant country.

It’s clear that the Ivy League has grown in the popular imagination to be more than just a sports league. It’s become a sort of designation or a shorthand for prestigious, top universities. Laypeople are rarely sure of which schools actually constitute the Ivy League, except for Harvard and Yale. Most also assume Stanford is one. I’ve met college basketball enthusiasts who thought Duke was an Ivy, and I know college football fans who assumed Northwestern was an Ivy. It’s a colloquialism that’s anchored in a slightly different reality from what most people think.

Any college basketball enthusiast would not only know that Duke was in the ACC, but would have thoughts on their likelihood of beating UNC that year and how many ACC schools might make the NCAA tourney. This is just dumb.

You’d be surprised. Lots of people primarily think of Ivy League as an academic designation, even if they follow college sports. To be fair Ivy League, though it is D1, is on the fringe and no one really pays attention to their sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivy League is a sports category. There are hundreds of excellent colleges and universities in the U.S. It is a giant country.

It’s clear that the Ivy League has grown in the popular imagination to be more than just a sports league. It’s become a sort of designation or a shorthand for prestigious, top universities. Laypeople are rarely sure of which schools actually constitute the Ivy League, except for Harvard and Yale. Most also assume Stanford is one. I’ve met college basketball enthusiasts who thought Duke was an Ivy, and I know college football fans who assumed Northwestern was an Ivy. It’s a colloquialism that’s anchored in a slightly different reality from what most people think.

Any college basketball enthusiast would not only know that Duke was in the ACC, but would have thoughts on their likelihood of beating UNC that year and how many ACC schools might make the NCAA tourney. This is just dumb.

You’d be surprised. Lots of people primarily think of Ivy League as an academic designation, even if they follow college sports. To be fair Ivy League, though it is D1, is on the fringe and no one really pays attention to their sports.

NP but I would be very very surprised by a "college basketball enthusiast" who did not know Duke was an ACC team. If they didn't know Notre Dame or BC was an ACC team, that would be another thing...

Also, basketball is the one sport where people do pay some attention to the Ivies because they still get an automatic bid to the NCAAs and it's usually at least an interesting game

[Anonymous]

When my in-laws first found out that I graduated from Vanderbilt, they asked if the school was an Ivy. They live in NY.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Coming across the JHU thread and it’s clear there are some people unfamiliar with American colleges who think Ivy League = the best. It is worth repeating that there are just as many universities NOT in the Ivy League that are just as good and just as prestigious as the Ivies.

Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Cal Tech, JHU, Northwestern, Duke

If we expand to LACS, add Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore and Pomona.

If these schools were to just start their own separate academic “league,” they would rival the Ivy League, easily.

No one thinks only Ivy League is the best. It's a straw man in your own head. But Ivy League is a real grouping that conveys prestige for lay people. MIT and Stanford are also widely accepted as being in the top 5 prestigious schools in the country. T5, HYPMS is a real grouping.

The rest of them are all good schools. But they are not prestigious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivy League is a sports category. There are hundreds of excellent colleges and universities in the U.S. It is a giant country.

It’s clear that the Ivy League has grown in the popular imagination to be more than just a sports league. It’s become a sort of designation or a shorthand for prestigious, top universities. Laypeople are rarely sure of which schools actually constitute the Ivy League, except for Harvard and Yale. Most also assume Stanford is one. I’ve met college basketball enthusiasts who thought Duke was an Ivy, and I know college football fans who assumed Northwestern was an Ivy. It’s a colloquialism that’s anchored in a slightly different reality from what most people think.

Any college basketball enthusiast would not only know that Duke was in the ACC, but would have thoughts on their likelihood of beating UNC that year and how many ACC schools might make the NCAA tourney. This is just dumb.

You’d be surprised. Lots of people primarily think of Ivy League as an academic designation, even if they follow college sports. To be fair Ivy League, though it is D1, is on the fringe and no one really pays attention to their sports.

NP but I would be very very surprised by a "college basketball enthusiast" who did not know Duke was an ACC team. If they didn't know Notre Dame or BC was an ACC team, that would be another thing...

Also, basketball is the one sport where people do pay some attention to the Ivies because they still get an automatic bid to the NCAAs and it's usually at least an interesting game

Yes, I’m saying that in the minds of these people, one does not preclude the other — like, “Oh, Duke is an Ivy League school in the ACC.” I’ve heard people say things like this unironically because again, in their minds, “Ivy League” just means “prestigious school.” Dumb, I know, but it’s how a lot of the general public perceives the term.

I literally saw someone recently say that Northwestern should have its Ivy League status revoked because it’s been doing so well at football. Obviously this person follows college football and would know NW is in the B1G. Again, completely incorrect, but that’s just how it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OK, OP. I partly agree with you. But you don't go nearly far enough. You want to maintain the façade that there is a strict hierarchy, but you want to quibble about the order. I would say that there really is no hierarchy.

First of all, there are probably around 500 schools in the US with high enough overall quality that even the brightest kids cannot learn everything and cannot exhaust the opportunities presented to them. The job market in academics is so bad that the professors at secondary and tertiary public colleges got their PhDs right alongside the professors at Ivy League schools. There just isn't room for all of them at the most selective schools, so they go where they can get jobs.

Secondly, I dispute the notion that there is such a thing as "prestigious" undergrad. I care about where people went to grad school, where they did their post-doc or fellowship (though even then, it is more about WHO they trained under, than where they did it), and subsequent work experience. Unless they were trying to make conversation about people we might know, or football rivalry, I would find it sort of pathetic if they tried to brag about undergrad. Like bragging about graduating high school. Sort of expected. Any field where a bachelor's degree is terminal is not really particularly "prestigious". Any field where a higher degree is required, people only care about your higher degree.

So, just go to a school where you will learn the most, be happy and can afford. It is not so hard.

NP
For what professions is your observation correct?
It seems correct for medical but not for financial.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coming across the JHU thread and it’s clear there are some people unfamiliar with American colleges who think Ivy League = the best. It is worth repeating that there are just as many universities NOT in the Ivy League that are just as good and just as prestigious as the Ivies.

Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Cal Tech, JHU, Northwestern, Duke

If we expand to LACS, add Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore and Pomona.

If these schools were to just start their own separate academic “league,” they would rival the Ivy League, easily.

No one thinks only Ivy League is the best. It's a straw man in your own head. But Ivy League is a real grouping that conveys prestige for lay people. MIT and Stanford are also widely accepted as being in the top 5 prestigious schools in the country. T5, HYPMS is a real grouping.

The rest of them are all good schools. But they are not prestigious.

This is the dumbest comment. T5 or HYPMS is no more a “real grouping” than this list here. And to claim that any of these schools aren’t prestigious is uneducated, by which I mean in academia and among the educated elite in this country, these schools certainly do carry prestige.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Coming across the JHU thread and it’s clear there are some people unfamiliar with American colleges who think Ivy League = the best. It is worth repeating that there are just as many universities NOT in the Ivy League that are just as good and just as prestigious as the Ivies.

Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Cal Tech, JHU, Northwestern, Duke

If we expand to LACS, add Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore and Pomona.

If these schools were to just start their own separate academic “league,” they would rival the Ivy League, easily.

Duke v. Williams men’s basketball would be interesting, Northwestern v. Swathmore football would be a massacre. Do you think Northwestern would be eager to give up the $50 million plus a year big 10 tv payout?

[Anonymous]

Are people in this thread actually claiming schools like Brown and Dartmouth are more prestigious than Chicago or Duke or Northwestern? That doesn’t seem right to me. Would be more impressed to hear someone went to Caltech than Penn. And so the list goes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are people in this thread actually claiming schools like Brown and Dartmouth are more prestigious than Chicago or Duke or Northwestern? That doesn’t seem right to me. Would be more impressed to hear someone went to Caltech than Penn. And so the list goes.

The smart folks are saying that it's extremely silly to make those distinctions, especially as a generalization.

For instance Brown's applied math department is the strongest of the lot you list, Penn has Wharton which is #1 for undergrad business, Northwestern is tops in journalism, Caltech the strongest for engineering, etc etc.

But -- even a student wanting one of the disciplines above might fare better at a different school. The people making these tiered lists are just the jerkoffs deciding which is the cool kids table in the lunchroom. It's a complex and nuanced topic, outside the intellect of many posters here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coming across the JHU thread and it’s clear there are some people unfamiliar with American colleges who think Ivy League = the best. It is worth repeating that there are just as many universities NOT in the Ivy League that are just as good and just as prestigious as the Ivies.

Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Cal Tech, JHU, Northwestern, Duke

If we expand to LACS, add Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore and Pomona.

If these schools were to just start their own separate academic “league,” they would rival the Ivy League, easily.

No one thinks only Ivy League is the best. It's a straw man in your own head. But Ivy League is a real grouping that conveys prestige for lay people. MIT and Stanford are also widely accepted as being in the top 5 prestigious schools in the country. T5, HYPMS is a real grouping.

The rest of them are all good schools. But they are not prestigious.

This is the dumbest comment. T5 or HYPMS is no more a “real grouping” than this list here. And to claim that any of these schools aren’t prestigious is uneducated, by which I mean in academia and among the educated elite in this country, these schools certainly do carry prestige.

HYPMS is a real grouping. The list you invented is only in your head and serves no meaningful purpose. You keep changing the subject. You were not talking about prestige among educated elite. For lay people Ivy league has certain prestige even if they may not know all 8. MIT and Stanford have earned their prestige, and are well known by lay people too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Coming across the JHU thread and it’s clear there are some people unfamiliar with American colleges who think Ivy League = the best. It is worth repeating that there are just as many universities NOT in the Ivy League that are just as good and just as prestigious as the Ivies.

Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Cal Tech, JHU, Northwestern, Duke

If we expand to LACS, add Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore and Pomona.

If these schools were to just start their own separate academic “league,” they would rival the Ivy League, easily.

ivies (minus Cornell) = Stanford, MIT > Chicago, JHU > Cal Tech, Northwestern, Duke, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Pomona.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coming across the JHU thread and it’s clear there are some people unfamiliar with American colleges who think Ivy League = the best. It is worth repeating that there are just as many universities NOT in the Ivy League that are just as good and just as prestigious as the Ivies.

Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Cal Tech, JHU, Northwestern, Duke

If we expand to LACS, add Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore and Pomona.

If these schools were to just start their own separate academic “league,” they would rival the Ivy League, easily.

Duke v. Williams men’s basketball would be interesting, Northwestern v. Swathmore football would be a massacre. Do you think Northwestern would be eager to give up the $50 million plus a year big 10 tv payout?

Given that “Swathmore” doesn’t have a football team it would be relatively bloodless.