Second Shift - sucks for dads too

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The problem is that OP makes it sound so unfair that he has a second shift and how that is somehow under appreciated. Like he is not supposed to have a second shift but society has conspired to give him one. Meanwhile women just expect it.

This is the thing I notice about men who split parenting and housework relatively equally with their wives (who also work) - they consider it some kind of huge notable thing that they are MEN who have to balance work with family obligations. If they see a lot of men dropping off kids at daycare, they think to themselves, "wow, these men are so evolved" without thinking about the absurdity and injustice of the alternative - dumping both drop off and pickup on the wives that ALSO have jobs. It's not "evolved" that there are men at daycare drop off, it means there are two working parents and the men are more likely to do drop off so they can work later.

I so identify with this comment. Not so much about my husband, who leans in a ton, but the rest of society that acts like I am SO LUCKY to have landed a guy that is such a great dad. Meanwhile, I have the much more demanding job and still do as much. (I do feel lucky, by the way, but it is so grating when everyone fawns over him for doing what he's supposed to do as a dad).

Omg, yes.

For me the adulation for my DH for fulfilling his role as a parent (he does it very well, I'm grateful!) comes from my mother. She constantly tells me how lucky I am. And I do feel lucky. But I think DH is lucky too, but my mother doesn't.

Are you guys really that blind to the historical expectations that have traditionally surround gender? The reason why it’s notable when a man pitches his full self into childcare is that traditionally men had almost zero expectations to provide day to day childcare but he was expected to work and provide for material needs. That’s the same reason why women are lauded more than a man when she becomes a high ranking corporate leader or a top surgeon or military rank etc. The comments come from a sense of novelty. Your victim narrative is in your own mind. Don’t you think it feels a bit patronizing to a man when he is noted for taking care of his own child? It’s not exactly a great thing for anyone involved.

My husband doesn't think it is patronizing. He internalizes it and expects gratitude from me for being so evolved. He has made comments that I am lucky that he is so "domestic" since I am so lacking in that area. In other words, he is really good at running the dishwasher, washing machine and dryer and making simple dinners (I also do these things regularly but he does it a bit more. I do more of the laundry sorting and putting away and house cleaning). I appreciate it! On the other hand, between my full time job (which brings on about the same money as DH's) and taking the lead on coordinating our child's supports for her special needs, I only have so much time to organize and clean. DH likes to pile up stuff all over the house thinking it is organized, so the house is cluttered and messy.

He is a good father and husband in general but this is his blind spot. When we were dating, he made it clear he was not looking to be a sole provider - he didn't want a SAHM for a wife. And that's what I wanted too. But men in our generation and both men and women in our parents generation too often forget that if both parents are working, it is not okay for the husband to dump domestic responsibilities on the wife. If they are doing their part, that just means they aren't an entitled ahole, and that's a good thing but not a reason for intense adulation or acting like they are God's gift to women.

That sounds like the specific personality of your husband (to be a martyr) and not how I feel at all. Who is providing all of this “intense adulation”?

DP, but my guess is absolutely no one. Martyr/victim types like PP read articles on Jezebel (or equivalents), watch rage bait on YouTube and TikTok, and internalize that noise as real life.

They are married to men they readily admit are good husbands and good fathers, and their number complaint is that their mothers like their husbands? What a nightmare

You sound jealous

Of what/whom?

Women with husbands who are good husbands and fathers and who are well liked by her parents

How did you arrive at that conclusion from what was said, dear? Please show your work.

I'm just calling it like I see it. You seem really upset that I have a good husband. How awful of me to have enough self respect to know that he is lucky to have me too, even if my mother doesn't think so.The fact that I have some self respect is part of the reason why my husband works hard to be a good partner even if he has a little bit of a complex about it.

I said show your work. How did you “see” the prior statement as in any way indicative of jealousy?

Based on your lack of reading comprehension abilities, critical thinking skills, and generally aggressive nature, I think your “self respect” is largely unwarranted. That’s probably why your own mother doesn’t like you.

Lol but you're not aggressive at all

[Anonymous]

This is why we moved out of DC and to a lower COL area. The commute (each of us drove one hour in opposite directions - me into DC and him into Fairfax) was ridiculous. The housing prices were insane. The "good" public schools weren't that great and the private schools were astronomical. I was a fed lawyer, so I'm not discounting how hard it can be to change jobs, but it was so worth it for us.

Our other friends had one of the parents quit and stay at home. They now have a different set of stressors but some things are easier (especially as kids get older and need a lot more driving around after school with sports and such).

Our other friends moved way out to the far away burbs and one of them took a job that they could do remotely so that only had a bad commute.

Our other friends left the government for private sector work that pays more so now they can outsource things like laundry and yard work.

There's no one right answer, but I feel your pain and we were fortunate to be able to do something to alleviate it. I hope you're able to find some relief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fastcompany.com/91496750/new-second-shift-burning-out-both-parents

We are a dual working parent household and I so wish we had understood how awful it would be.

We both work in office, commute 30-60 min each way, and work 8-9 hour days. We thought this would be a reasonable setup, with one going in a little early and the other late to handle the morning and evening kid wrangling.

But it has just drained our entire life away. There is always a mess in the house (and now the yard, yay spring), weekends are errands, 7 piles of laundry, cleaning, yardwork.

We don’t make the kind of money we can outsource, like in the article above where they order out for dinner (I think us Millennials order the most takeout of any generation?).

We have no nearby family, no extra cash, and every moment is spoken for. And of course now apparently the good schools we slaved to afford to buy zoned for don’t matter because there won’t be any jobs for our kids.

Just a PSA to GenZ…

Laundry is easy to tackle. Do a load daily. Put it in when you wake up. Put it in the dryer before you leave. take it out when you get home and fold it. One load is easy to take care of.

NP. I don't think laundry is that difficult, but are you really around for an hour after you wake up? We're all out the door faster than that.

I mean, yes? Also, wake up earlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids are in their twenties and I honestly think that when people their age say "I don't want to have kids, or maybe just one. When I'm older" it's because they remember what it was when they were growing up and how hard it was with two careers, a couple of kids, a cat, a dog, extracurriculars, no family help nearby, etc. etc. etc.
- They remember the year that my husband and I seriously SPLIT a weeklong vacation with the kids where he flew out on Sunday-Wednesday, then I flew in and finished the vacation with the kids while he flew out because we couldn't make our schedules align.
-They remember the god-awful succession of au pairs and nannies we had, the upsets when they quit, the absurd lengths we went to to keep them, the one that totalled the car with the kids in it, the one that had the boyfriend that was ALWAYS THERE even though we sent him home frequently.
-They remember the 'roster' of meals we had, served the same on Mondays, Tuesdays, because it was the only way we could cope.
-They remember the year that my 'big gift' on Christmas was an electric blanket that you could plug into the car to stay warm while hanging out at someone's extracurricular practice in the parking lot.
-They remember my husband and me tag teaming their swim practices and the time I arrived back from some business trip halfway through their swim practice and I was so tired I couldn't remember their names, etc. etc. etc.
Good times. I kind of see why they don't want it for themselves.

Sorry but lots of this is self-imposed and is mommy martyr adjacent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fastcompany.com/91496750/new-second-shift-burning-out-both-parents

We are a dual working parent household and I so wish we had understood how awful it would be.

We both work in office, commute 30-60 min each way, and work 8-9 hour days. We thought this would be a reasonable setup, with one going in a little early and the other late to handle the morning and evening kid wrangling.

But it has just drained our entire life away. There is always a mess in the house (and now the yard, yay spring), weekends are errands, 7 piles of laundry, cleaning, yardwork.

We don’t make the kind of money we can outsource, like in the article above where they order out for dinner (I think us Millennials order the most takeout of any generation?).

We have no nearby family, no extra cash, and every moment is spoken for. And of course now apparently the good schools we slaved to afford to buy zoned for don’t matter because there won’t be any jobs for our kids.

Just a PSA to GenZ…

Laundry is easy to tackle. Do a load daily. Put it in when you wake up. Put it in the dryer before you leave. take it out when you get home and fold it. One load is easy to take care of.

NP. I don't think laundry is that difficult, but are you really around for an hour after you wake up? We're all out the door faster than that.

I mean, yes? Also, wake up earlier.

This is the key for me. I get up by 6 and leave for work at 8:15 (teacher). I do laundry, unload dishwasher, vacuum in the morning so I don't have to do it when I get home and am exhausted. It has made a big difference in my life since I switched. That being said we deliberately live within 15 minutes of my job so that we don't both have commutes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For meals, I basically make the same 5-7 weekday meals on repeat (with slight seasonal variation), and nearly always have the ingredients for those. Boring, but helps a lot. Eventually we get sick of one meal and switch it out for a newer recipe.

And one load of laundry per day is a must. However you can make that happen. Otherwise I would be drowning in dirty laundry. That said, we always have baskets of (folded) clean clothes that seem to sit awhile. I have started keeping a bin of hangers in the laundry room to hang shirts and other hanging items right away at least. Then just grab them all by the hangers & can put everyone’s away in one trip. I also keep a kitchen trash bag next to the washing machine for outgrown or donation clothes. I throw them straight into it out of the dryer & drop off when full

We do something similar in that one night is Asian (stir fry, Pad Thai, fried rice, Mongolian beef, potstickers), two nights are Mexican (the first is "fresh" with the meat cooked that night, the second is more bowls/quesadillas/burritos with leftovers), one is pasta (change up the protein, the sauce, and the noodles), one is American (grilled meat of some sort), and one is a salad. We always have at least one night out and then usually a "down" night of leftovers or something casual or ordering pizza or having friends over/going to someone's house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I see these posts, I always wonder if the OP had a SAHP or is generally unobservant. I and most of my millennial friends came from dual income families and our lives are pretty similar to what we grew up with (particularly those with transplant parents). In many ways, I have it easier than my parents: remote work exists, I have more disposable income, cities are much safer. Yeah, it’s a ton of work, but that’s not new.

My parents both worked out of necessity and I saw how much calmer and more organized the 1-income families were. That’s when I decided I wanted to SAH. My sister made the same choice.

It will be interesting to see what my daughters choose.

My parents both worked but were strict about how much time and energy they gave to their jobs, so I had two parents with fulfilling careers, a bunch of money, and lots of time for family. It will be interesting to see what my daughters choose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT!!!


I thought it was fabulous and amazing to be a WOHM, and SAHMs were a waste of space!!

I thought - SAHMs provided zero value when - house was clean, laundry done, meals cooked, grocery bought, cars serviced, house organized, bills paid, drycleaning picked, social engagements met, entertaining done, kids school and ECs nailed, eldercare sorted, petcare done, yardwork sorted, haircuts scheduled, wellness checkups done, dental and eye exams done, home remodeling/improvement thoughtfully done.

Oh dear! What happened?? Why has life become so shitty???

NP. Obligatory (but true) response that I do all this and also full time in an executive role.

SAHMs don't provide zero value, rather they provide the same home value as working parents without the income.

Sure. So why are WOHMs falling apart? Be happy, proud and fulfilled. WOHMs should have less angst than SAHMs because a) they can outsource lots of stuff with their money and b) their DHs are doing their second shift too. No? Should it not all be easy-peasy?

I don’t know any WOHMs falling apart. The OP is a man. But your sarcasm and smugness say a lot about how you feel about your choices.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that OP makes it sound so unfair that he has a second shift and how that is somehow under appreciated. Like he is not supposed to have a second shift but society has conspired to give him one. Meanwhile women just expect it.

This is the thing I notice about men who split parenting and housework relatively equally with their wives (who also work) - they consider it some kind of huge notable thing that they are MEN who have to balance work with family obligations. If they see a lot of men dropping off kids at daycare, they think to themselves, "wow, these men are so evolved" without thinking about the absurdity and injustice of the alternative - dumping both drop off and pickup on the wives that ALSO have jobs. It's not "evolved" that there are men at daycare drop off, it means there are two working parents and the men are more likely to do drop off so they can work later.

My husband and his friends, all of whom have wives who work, some of whom are the breadwinners, think men who don't do stuff like drop their kids off are lazy and pathetic excuses for husbands and fathers. They don't pat themselves on the back, they feel sorry for the wives with waste of space husbands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wanted a soft life long before that was a thing. My working mom did not cope with it all well (and my dad was not that helpful.)

So I married a high earner with an eye towards being a SAHM and only had 2 kids. It’s worked out rather nicely if I do say so myself.

You women that want to do it all, more power to you. I just never wanted that. Ever.

And I'd never want to outsource my financial wellbeing to a man. More power to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fastcompany.com/91496750/new-second-shift-burning-out-both-parents

We are a dual working parent household and I so wish we had understood how awful it would be.

We both work in office, commute 30-60 min each way, and work 8-9 hour days. We thought this would be a reasonable setup, with one going in a little early and the other late to handle the morning and evening kid wrangling.

But it has just drained our entire life away. There is always a mess in the house (and now the yard, yay spring), weekends are errands, 7 piles of laundry, cleaning, yardwork.

We don’t make the kind of money we can outsource, like in the article above where they order out for dinner (I think us Millennials order the most takeout of any generation?).

We have no nearby family, no extra cash, and every moment is spoken for. And of course now apparently the good schools we slaved to afford to buy zoned for don’t matter because there won’t be any jobs for our kids.

Just a PSA to GenZ…

Laundry is easy to tackle. Do a load daily. Put it in when you wake up. Put it in the dryer before you leave. take it out when you get home and fold it. One load is easy to take care of.

Don't fold it. I stuff sheet sets into a pillowcase. Towels I do fold. Everyone gets their own basket of clean to put away however.

Why? We fold our kitchen towels but for bath towels everyone gets one washcloth, one hand towel, and one bath towel and they are all washed and then rehung immediately. Same with sheets. There are of course extras of everything in the linen closet just in case (or for guests), but during a regular week I am not folding sheets or towels. Why would you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We moved our entire family across the country to a southern state we didn’t know anyone but found jobs in for this reason. Our life is so simple now. Just move, it’s 2026. You’re not on the Oregon trail, it’s not nearly as difficult as it sounds.

This just made me laugh out loud, thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved our entire family across the country to a southern state we didn’t know anyone but found jobs in for this reason. Our life is so simple now. Just move, it’s 2026. You’re not on the Oregon trail, it’s not nearly as difficult as it sounds.

This just made me laugh out loud, thank you.

How is it simpler? Don't you have the same daily grind, but just in a state where you don't know anyone? (make breakfast, work all day, dropoff/pickup kids, make dinner, take them to their activities-albeit probably less intense ones, get ready for the next day of the same).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that OP makes it sound so unfair that he has a second shift and how that is somehow under appreciated. Like he is not supposed to have a second shift but society has conspired to give him one. Meanwhile women just expect it.

This is the thing I notice about men who split parenting and housework relatively equally with their wives (who also work) - they consider it some kind of huge notable thing that they are MEN who have to balance work with family obligations. If they see a lot of men dropping off kids at daycare, they think to themselves, "wow, these men are so evolved" without thinking about the absurdity and injustice of the alternative - dumping both drop off and pickup on the wives that ALSO have jobs. It's not "evolved" that there are men at daycare drop off, it means there are two working parents and the men are more likely to do drop off so they can work later.

My husband and his friends, all of whom have wives who work, some of whom are the breadwinners, think men who don't do stuff like drop their kids off are lazy and pathetic excuses for husbands and fathers. They don't pat themselves on the back, they feel sorry for the wives with waste of space husbands.

Yeah the way people talk about men doing parenting and housework on DCUM is completely foreign to me. I know very few families where dad doesn't do drop off or pickup or both, I know more families where mom doesn't cook dinner than where dad doesn't cook dinner. No one talks about it as a big deal, it's just a thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved our entire family across the country to a southern state we didn’t know anyone but found jobs in for this reason. Our life is so simple now. Just move, it’s 2026. You’re not on the Oregon trail, it’s not nearly as difficult as it sounds.

This just made me laugh out loud, thank you.

How is it simpler? Don't you have the same daily grind, but just in a state where you don't know anyone? (make breakfast, work all day, dropoff/pickup kids, make dinner, take them to their activities-albeit probably less intense ones, get ready for the next day of the same).

I'm the PP that laughed, not the one who made the original comment, although we also moved out of DC for the specific purpose of simplifying our lives. Pre-COVID we both worked out of the house (now we both work from home full-time with no plans to ever return to the office), but we had a nanny who was cheaper than our nanny in DC, we had commutes of 20 minutes each versus an hour, we built an amazing house for the same price as our older townhouse in Vienna, our kids are in an excellent private school where tuition is half the price of the school they were in before, and the pace of life is just slower here. Friends live closer, so we aren't going to birthday parties in Bethesda that take us an hour to get to, traffic isn't as bad, so we aren't white-knuckling it in the morning and evening, I could go on and on. Our kids are all in intense sports, we are all very social, we travel a lot, we have two dogs, we both work full-time jobs that are pretty demanding, but life is still so much easier than it was when we lived in DC. I honestly don't know why anyone stays if they don't have to. And yes, we both switched jobs in order to move, it's not like we just easily picked up and relocated, but it was so worth it.