Faith

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it something you have or don't have? If it's just something you have, why would God reward that instead of rewarding people who are good to each other?

I find it hard to believe that an infinitely advanced being judged people based on whether or not you happen to believe in him/her/it.

An infinitely advanced being is not exactly a definition of the god of the Bible that so many people believe in in some way. That God emerged thousands of years ago and was written about by pre-scientific people. Modern scholars have tried to bring him into the modern age, but it's hard when you're dealing with an antiquated book or stories and rules

I'm just saying that if there is a god, I can't see him hanging one's afterlife on whether you had faith while alive.

What do you think His purpose is, then?

OP here. Whatever his purpose, it would be terrible and petty if he created us in order to be adored by us.

Why do you say that? If you believe there is a God, then He could very well have created us for any purpose that He chose....

Yes, and it would be petty if a supreme being, capable of creating a world would create people in his image (if you believe that) to adore him.

Then you could never be a Muslim. God says: "We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us" (Adh-Dhariyyat 51: 56). It is our belief that God created us to worship Him, because we need to worship Him. It is something He has given us as a means of benefiting ourselves. We are the ones who benefit from it. So relative to God, we were created in a means or a way in which God has chosen to manifest His attributes of creation, mercy, grace etc and He could have chosen another one. But relative to us as human beings, we know that our purpose is to worship God only. God does NOT need our worship, God didn’t need to create. When He created us to worship Him, He didn’t create us, out of a need for our worship, because God has no needs. In a famous divine Hadith God says:

"If all of you, jinn and mankind, were to worship like the most righteous amongst you, it would not increase the dominion of Allah in any way, shape or form...."

Therefore when we look for the purpose of worship, we have to look into man. God created us to worship Him, because we need to worship Him. It is something He has given us as a means of benefiting ourselves. We are the ones who benefit from it. Worship has been established, fundamentally for the growth, the spiritual growth of man. This growth takes place through the remembrance of God.

Almighty Allah says what means:

"Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great." Al-Baqarah 2:255

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

9:12 here, and +1 to this comment. THE AFTERLIFE does seem to be the great atheist loophole. But to answer the question, "do I believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth," go ahead and point to my nit-picking again, but I'm going to challenge your choice of words. I would not use the word "punish." If my child touches a hot stove after I have repeatedly told him, over and over again, to stay away from it... and lo and behold he burns his finger... is that a "punishment?" Am I inflicting it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

9:12 here, and +1 to this comment. THE AFTERLIFE does seem to be the great atheist loophole. But to answer the question, "do I believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth," go ahead and point to my nit-picking again, but I'm going to challenge your choice of words. I would not use the word "punish." If my child touches a hot stove after I have repeatedly told him, over and over again, to stay away from it... and lo and behold he burns his finger... is that a "punishment?" Am I inflicting it?

not the bast analogy -- in your case there is an object - hot stove -- that will hurt anyone who touches it. The mother is trying to teach the child and help it avoid pain.

A better analogy would be a mother telling a child "If you touch the stove (hot or otherwise, or anything else the mother chooses) I'm going to beat you up."

This does not protect the child from anything but the mother's wrath and only teaches the child that it better do what Mom says to avoid her cruelty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

9:12 here, and +1 to this comment. THE AFTERLIFE does seem to be the great atheist loophole. But to answer the question, "do I believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth," go ahead and point to my nit-picking again, but I'm going to challenge your choice of words. I would not use the word "punish." If my child touches a hot stove after I have repeatedly told him, over and over again, to stay away from it... and lo and behold he burns his finger... is that a "punishment?" Am I inflicting it?

not the bast analogy -- in your case there is an object - hot stove -- that will hurt anyone who touches it. The mother is trying to teach the child and help it avoid pain.

A better analogy would be a mother telling a child "If you touch the stove (hot or otherwise, or anything else the mother chooses) I'm going to beat you up."

This does not protect the child from anything but the mother's wrath and only teaches the child that it better do what Mom says to avoid her cruelty.

Sorry, but I don't think that works at all. Yes, the object (hot stove) will hurt anyone that chooses to touch it. In the case of Christianity, an objective choice (turning away from God, denying God, etc. however you want to term it) will also hurt anyone that chooses to that action.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

I'm not sure I understand you.

What I am saying (OP) is that I don't think there is a god but there might be. And if there is, I find it hard to believe he wouldnt be loving, generous, forgiving, and not so arbitrary and capricious as to judge people on their belief in him instead of in their good acts.

I don't believe in the afterlife either but I guess you could call it an act of faith in my part that I believe if there is one, and a god, that God would not exclude people based on their faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

9:12 here, and +1 to this comment. THE AFTERLIFE does seem to be the great atheist loophole. But to answer the question, "do I believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth," go ahead and point to my nit-picking again, but I'm going to challenge your choice of words. I would not use the word "punish." If my child touches a hot stove after I have repeatedly told him, over and over again, to stay away from it... and lo and behold he burns his finger... is that a "punishment?" Am I inflicting it?

What do you mean by loophole. I'm sorry I'm not following. You might be referencing a discussion on a thread I'm not reading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

9:12 here, and +1 to this comment. THE AFTERLIFE does seem to be the great atheist loophole. But to answer the question, "do I believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth," go ahead and point to my nit-picking again, but I'm going to challenge your choice of words. I would not use the word "punish." If my child touches a hot stove after I have repeatedly told him, over and over again, to stay away from it... and lo and behold he burns his finger... is that a "punishment?" Am I inflicting it?

OP again, the analogy for me would be not that mom tells you not to touch but that some group of other people over time write documents that purport to give accurate stove advice. Would God really set up the universe to hurt th child if the child was skeptical of the people making claims?

That's part of my point. Given that a rational and loving person who tries to do good can easily not believe in God given what little we have, I just don't see God punishing those people. Is he also going to punish all the people who get the details wrong?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

9:12 here, and +1 to this comment. THE AFTERLIFE does seem to be the great atheist loophole. But to answer the question, "do I believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth," go ahead and point to my nit-picking again, but I'm going to challenge your choice of words. I would not use the word "punish." If my child touches a hot stove after I have repeatedly told him, over and over again, to stay away from it... and lo and behold he burns his finger... is that a "punishment?" Am I inflicting it?

not the bast analogy -- in your case there is an object - hot stove -- that will hurt anyone who touches it. The mother is trying to teach the child and help it avoid pain.

A better analogy would be a mother telling a child "If you touch the stove (hot or otherwise, or anything else the mother chooses) I'm going to beat you up."

This does not protect the child from anything but the mother's wrath and only teaches the child that it better do what Mom says to avoid her cruelty.

Sorry, but I don't think that works at all. Yes, the object (hot stove) will hurt anyone that chooses to touch it. In the case of Christianity, an objective choice (turning away from God, denying God, etc. however you want to term it) will also hurt anyone that chooses to that action.

In other words, you're giving up on the hot stove analogy because it didn't work out as intended, and instead making a special case for Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

9:12 here, and +1 to this comment. THE AFTERLIFE does seem to be the great atheist loophole. But to answer the question, "do I believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth," go ahead and point to my nit-picking again, but I'm going to challenge your choice of words. I would not use the word "punish." If my child touches a hot stove after I have repeatedly told him, over and over again, to stay away from it... and lo and behold he burns his finger... is that a "punishment?" Am I inflicting it?

not the bast analogy -- in your case there is an object - hot stove -- that will hurt anyone who touches it. The mother is trying to teach the child and help it avoid pain.

A better analogy would be a mother telling a child "If you touch the stove (hot or otherwise, or anything else the mother chooses) I'm going to beat you up."

This does not protect the child from anything but the mother's wrath and only teaches the child that it better do what Mom says to avoid her cruelty.

Sorry, but I don't think that works at all. Yes, the object (hot stove) will hurt anyone that chooses to touch it. In the case of Christianity, an objective choice (turning away from God, denying God, etc. however you want to term it) will also hurt anyone that chooses to that action.

In other words, you're giving up on the hot stove analogy because it didn't work out as intended, and instead making a special case for Christianity.

Huh? I am continuing the hot stove analogy!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

I'm not sure I understand you.

What I am saying (OP) is that I don't think there is a god but there might be. And if there is, I find it hard to believe he wouldnt be loving, generous, forgiving, and not so arbitrary and capricious as to judge people on their belief in him instead of in their good acts.

I don't believe in the afterlife either but I guess you could call it an act of faith in my part that I believe if there is one, and a god, that God would not exclude people based on their faith.

This is a very thoughtful post from you, but God forgiving based on your faith really is the most loving thing He could do. You might have some good acts, but what about your bad acts? If you want Him to judge you impartially, you have a lot to answer for. I certainly do. We all do. But God in His mercy merely asks that you believe Him, and accept His Son. It's not like He gave you nothing to go on. He sent Jesus Christ -- God in the flesh -- to live the perfect life that you can't live, and He had his life and ministry minutely detailed in four Gospels, all of which have an extraordinary agreement in them, which document many miracles, a death on the cross because He loves you, and a resurrection unto life. And all you have to do is believe that and trust in Him to save you, and He will. But if you want to go and argue your life before God, you'll be far lacking. No one on this planet could go before a judge for a crime, and argue that he wasn't guilty because he also did some good things. We all will have to answer for our sins, unless we've been forgiven them in Christ. This is an offer open to all. If you are really seeking to know the truth, try praying to God (even if you only might be able to believe in Him) and telling Him you're sorry for your sins and you'll follow where He leads you if He leads you. If you do that honestly with a sincere heart, He will lead you into a knowledge of the truth. This is why Christ said you need only faith as big as a mustard seed. God will take the smallest belief of Him and make it grow, but it is really the most merciful, kind and loving way to do it. Otherwise, you're on your own.

[Anonymous]

13:31, I understand that this is the teaching but it does not make sense to me. It's too arbitrary and not focused on the things that a god should care about. If he has infinite love and mercy, he will want his teachings to guild me on earth but he won't reject me where I fail. There's no necessary element that requires me to believe for that to be the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

I'm not sure I understand you.

What I am saying (OP) is that I don't think there is a god but there might be. And if there is, I find it hard to believe he wouldnt be loving, generous, forgiving, and not so arbitrary and capricious as to judge people on their belief in him instead of in their good acts.

I don't believe in the afterlife either but I guess you could call it an act of faith in my part that I believe if there is one, and a god, that God would not exclude people based on their faith.

This is a very thoughtful post from you, but God forgiving based on your faith really is the most loving thing He could do. You might have some good acts, but what about your bad acts? If you want Him to judge you impartially, you have a lot to answer for. I certainly do. We all do. But God in His mercy merely asks that you believe Him, and accept His Son. It's not like He gave you nothing to go on. He sent Jesus Christ -- God in the flesh -- to live the perfect life that you can't live, and He had his life and ministry minutely detailed in four Gospels, all of which have an extraordinary agreement in them, which document many miracles, a death on the cross because He loves you, and a resurrection unto life. And all you have to do is believe that and trust in Him to save you, and He will. But if you want to go and argue your life before God, you'll be far lacking. No one on this planet could go before a judge for a crime, and argue that he wasn't guilty because he also did some good things. We all will have to answer for our sins, unless we've been forgiven them in Christ. This is an offer open to all. If you are really seeking to know the truth, try praying to God (even if you only might be able to believe in Him) and telling Him you're sorry for your sins and you'll follow where He leads you if He leads you. If you do that honestly with a sincere heart, He will lead you into a knowledge of the truth. This is why Christ said you need only faith as big as a mustard seed. God will take the smallest belief of Him and make it grow, but it is really the most merciful, kind and loving way to do it. Otherwise, you're on your own.

not pp, but the Jesus story is not "minutely detailed" in the gospels, there are differences and discrepancies, and numerous translations have taken their toll, as they would on any very old document. Also, the Authors are unknown, except for Paul and even some of his stuff was written by others. And there is very little historical corroboration for anything in the gospels despite the fact that scholars have been looking hard for centuries. We would never trust such sources today as anything but stories - hardly anything to base a serious belief on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:13:31, I understand that this is the teaching but it does not make sense to me. It's too arbitrary and not focused on the things that a god should care about. If he has infinite love and mercy, he will want his teachings to guild me on earth but he won't reject me where I fail. There's no necessary element that requires me to believe for that to be the case.

Actually, God does guide us here on earth if we believe in Him, but how can He do that if we reject Him? The Bible says that the things of God are spiritually discerned, and how can we know the mind of God if we don't believe in Him. When you trust in Christ, you are guided by the Holy Spirit to be more and more guided in the things of God. I know this to be true because this is exactly what happened to me. I cannot prove this to you scientifically. And it's not really arbitrary at all. It's very clear: Believe God and trust Jesus Christ to forgive you, and He will. It's very simple. I wish you could see that "earning" your way to Heaven is the arbitrary way. How many good things would you have to do? What good things would those be? How many bad things can you do before you're out of luck? None of that has any solidity to it. But build your life on Christ, and God will help you do the good things you want to do, and He will forgive you your failings. It's really so easy, but so many people miss it because they want to do it all on their own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

I'm not sure I understand you.

What I am saying (OP) is that I don't think there is a god but there might be. And if there is, I find it hard to believe he wouldnt be loving, generous, forgiving, and not so arbitrary and capricious as to judge people on their belief in him instead of in their good acts.

I don't believe in the afterlife either but I guess you could call it an act of faith in my part that I believe if there is one, and a god, that God would not exclude people based on their faith.

This is a very thoughtful post from you, but God forgiving based on your faith really is the most loving thing He could do. You might have some good acts, but what about your bad acts? If you want Him to judge you impartially, you have a lot to answer for. I certainly do. We all do. But God in His mercy merely asks that you believe Him, and accept His Son. It's not like He gave you nothing to go on. He sent Jesus Christ -- God in the flesh -- to live the perfect life that you can't live, and He had his life and ministry minutely detailed in four Gospels, all of which have an extraordinary agreement in them, which document many miracles, a death on the cross because He loves you, and a resurrection unto life. And all you have to do is believe that and trust in Him to save you, and He will. But if you want to go and argue your life before God, you'll be far lacking. No one on this planet could go before a judge for a crime, and argue that he wasn't guilty because he also did some good things. We all will have to answer for our sins, unless we've been forgiven them in Christ. This is an offer open to all. If you are really seeking to know the truth, try praying to God (even if you only might be able to believe in Him) and telling Him you're sorry for your sins and you'll follow where He leads you if He leads you. If you do that honestly with a sincere heart, He will lead you into a knowledge of the truth. This is why Christ said you need only faith as big as a mustard seed. God will take the smallest belief of Him and make it grow, but it is really the most merciful, kind and loving way to do it. Otherwise, you're on your own.

not pp, but the Jesus story is not "minutely detailed" in the gospels, there are differences and discrepancies, and numerous translations have taken their toll, as they would on any very old document. Also, the Authors are unknown, except for Paul and even some of his stuff was written by others. And there is very little historical corroboration for anything in the gospels despite the fact that scholars have been looking hard for centuries. We would never trust such sources today as anything but stories - hardly anything to base a serious belief on.

Have you actually read all four Gospels, or just some gnostic refutation of them? Read them yourself. You'll be amazed how much detail and agreement is in them.