Faith

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:13:31, I understand that this is the teaching but it does not make sense to me. It's too arbitrary and not focused on the things that a god should care about. If he has infinite love and mercy, he will want his teachings to guild me on earth but he won't reject me where I fail. There's no necessary element that requires me to believe for that to be the case.

Actually, God does guide us here on earth if we believe in Him, but how can He do that if we reject Him? The Bible says that the things of God are spiritually discerned, and how can we know the mind of God if we don't believe in Him. When you trust in Christ, you are guided by the Holy Spirit to be more and more guided in the things of God. I know this to be true because this is exactly what happened to me. I cannot prove this to you scientifically. And it's not really arbitrary at all. It's very clear: Believe God and trust Jesus Christ to forgive you, and He will. It's very simple. I wish you could see that "earning" your way to Heaven is the arbitrary way. How many good things would you have to do? What good things would those be? How many bad things can you do before you're out of luck? None of that has any solidity to it. But build your life on Christ, and God will help you do the good things you want to do, and He will forgive you your failings. It's really so easy, but so many people miss it because they want to do it all on their own.

I should be more clear. I don't think you would earn you way in. If god exists, I do not believe he would reject anyone after life. The threat of punishment is an attempt to get people to behave well but there's no moral honor in behaving in order to avoid pain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

What about if you also knew that eternal punishment awaited you if you refused to worship him? Would you still refuse, or would you try to worship him and hope that his magical powers didn't extend to being able to read your mind and know you weren't sincere and were just trying to get into heaven?

I can't believe you can fake your way in, if belief is in fact required. Pascal's wager is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:13:31, I understand that this is the teaching but it does not make sense to me. It's too arbitrary and not focused on the things that a god should care about. If he has infinite love and mercy, he will want his teachings to guild me on earth but he won't reject me where I fail. There's no necessary element that requires me to believe for that to be the case.

Actually, God does guide us here on earth if we believe in Him, but how can He do that if we reject Him? The Bible says that the things of God are spiritually discerned, and how can we know the mind of God if we don't believe in Him. When you trust in Christ, you are guided by the Holy Spirit to be more and more guided in the things of God. I know this to be true because this is exactly what happened to me. I cannot prove this to you scientifically. And it's not really arbitrary at all. It's very clear: Believe God and trust Jesus Christ to forgive you, and He will. It's very simple. I wish you could see that "earning" your way to Heaven is the arbitrary way. How many good things would you have to do? What good things would those be? How many bad things can you do before you're out of luck? None of that has any solidity to it. But build your life on Christ, and God will help you do the good things you want to do, and He will forgive you your failings. It's really so easy, but so many people miss it because they want to do it all on their own.

I should be more clear. I don't think you would earn you way in. If god exists, I do not believe he would reject anyone after life. The threat of punishment is an attempt to get people to behave well but there's no moral honor in behaving in order to avoid pain.

Sin and God cannot co-exist. Sin originally came about because, in our free will, we choose the sinful way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:12, do you believe he would punish in the afterlife those who don't achieve fellowship with him on earth?

Muslima, if I could know there was a god and that his purpose in creating us was to have someone to worship him, I couldnt worship such a god.

not 9:12. There is a lot of obsession with what happens in the after life, punishment, damnation, etc. from the atheist crowd. Are you really trying to understand?

I'm not sure I understand you.

What I am saying (OP) is that I don't think there is a god but there might be. And if there is, I find it hard to believe he wouldnt be loving, generous, forgiving, and not so arbitrary and capricious as to judge people on their belief in him instead of in their good acts.

I don't believe in the afterlife either but I guess you could call it an act of faith in my part that I believe if there is one, and a god, that God would not exclude people based on their faith.

This is a very thoughtful post from you, but God forgiving based on your faith really is the most loving thing He could do. You might have some good acts, but what about your bad acts? If you want Him to judge you impartially, you have a lot to answer for. I certainly do. We all do. But God in His mercy merely asks that you believe Him, and accept His Son. It's not like He gave you nothing to go on. He sent Jesus Christ -- God in the flesh -- to live the perfect life that you can't live, and He had his life and ministry minutely detailed in four Gospels, all of which have an extraordinary agreement in them, which document many miracles, a death on the cross because He loves you, and a resurrection unto life. And all you have to do is believe that and trust in Him to save you, and He will. But if you want to go and argue your life before God, you'll be far lacking. No one on this planet could go before a judge for a crime, and argue that he wasn't guilty because he also did some good things. We all will have to answer for our sins, unless we've been forgiven them in Christ. This is an offer open to all. If you are really seeking to know the truth, try praying to God (even if you only might be able to believe in Him) and telling Him you're sorry for your sins and you'll follow where He leads you if He leads you. If you do that honestly with a sincere heart, He will lead you into a knowledge of the truth. This is why Christ said you need only faith as big as a mustard seed. God will take the smallest belief of Him and make it grow, but it is really the most merciful, kind and loving way to do it. Otherwise, you're on your own.

not pp, but the Jesus story is not "minutely detailed" in the gospels, there are differences and discrepancies, and numerous translations have taken their toll, as they would on any very old document. Also, the Authors are unknown, except for Paul and even some of his stuff was written by others. And there is very little historical corroboration for anything in the gospels despite the fact that scholars have been looking hard for centuries. We would never trust such sources today as anything but stories - hardly anything to base a serious belief on.

Have you actually read all four Gospels, or just some gnostic refutation of them? Read them yourself. You'll be amazed how much detail and agreement is in them.

I have read them and am not amazed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:13:31, I understand that this is the teaching but it does not make sense to me. It's too arbitrary and not focused on the things that a god should care about. If he has infinite love and mercy, he will want his teachings to guild me on earth but he won't reject me where I fail. There's no necessary element that requires me to believe for that to be the case.

Actually, God does guide us here on earth if we believe in Him, but how can He do that if we reject Him? The Bible says that the things of God are spiritually discerned, and how can we know the mind of God if we don't believe in Him. When you trust in Christ, you are guided by the Holy Spirit to be more and more guided in the things of God. I know this to be true because this is exactly what happened to me. I cannot prove this to you scientifically. And it's not really arbitrary at all. It's very clear: Believe God and trust Jesus Christ to forgive you, and He will. It's very simple. I wish you could see that "earning" your way to Heaven is the arbitrary way. How many good things would you have to do? What good things would those be? How many bad things can you do before you're out of luck? None of that has any solidity to it. But build your life on Christ, and God will help you do the good things you want to do, and He will forgive you your failings. It's really so easy, but so many people miss it because they want to do it all on their own.

I should be more clear. I don't think you would earn you way in. If god exists, I do not believe he would reject anyone after life. The threat of punishment is an attempt to get people to behave well but there's no moral honor in behaving in order to avoid pain.

Sin and God cannot co-exist. Sin originally came about because, in our free will, we choose the sinful way.

I'm afraid I'm missing how this related to the bolded sentence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:13:31, I understand that this is the teaching but it does not make sense to me. It's too arbitrary and not focused on the things that a god should care about. If he has infinite love and mercy, he will want his teachings to guild me on earth but he won't reject me where I fail. There's no necessary element that requires me to believe for that to be the case.

Actually, God does guide us here on earth if we believe in Him, but how can He do that if we reject Him? The Bible says that the things of God are spiritually discerned, and how can we know the mind of God if we don't believe in Him. When you trust in Christ, you are guided by the Holy Spirit to be more and more guided in the things of God. I know this to be true because this is exactly what happened to me. I cannot prove this to you scientifically. And it's not really arbitrary at all. It's very clear: Believe God and trust Jesus Christ to forgive you, and He will. It's very simple. I wish you could see that "earning" your way to Heaven is the arbitrary way. How many good things would you have to do? What good things would those be? How many bad things can you do before you're out of luck? None of that has any solidity to it. But build your life on Christ, and God will help you do the good things you want to do, and He will forgive you your failings. It's really so easy, but so many people miss it because they want to do it all on their own.

I should be more clear. I don't think you would earn you way in. If god exists, I do not believe he would reject anyone after life. The threat of punishment is an attempt to get people to behave well but there's no moral honor in behaving in order to avoid pain.

Sin and God cannot co-exist. Sin originally came about because, in our free will, we choose the sinful way.

I'm afraid I'm missing how this related to the bolded sentence.

This PP does not believe that God would reject anyone (in the) after life. But "anyone" and "everyone" is a sinner, and therefore cannot co-exist with God.

[Anonymous]

Yes, we all sin, and thus on this logic no one would enter Heaven. But I'm sure that's not what the person means by God and co-existing with sin.

My view would be that whatever it is you think has to happen after death to cleanse the person of sin would be offered to all people. I suppose you could reject it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we all sin, and thus on this logic no one would enter Heaven. But I'm sure that's not what the person means by God and co-existing with sin.

My view would be that whatever it is you think has to happen after death to cleanse the person of sin would be offered to all people. I suppose you could reject it.

Ah, but we as Christians do. Because we are cleansed, renewed and washed by the blood of Christ. He has paid for our sin for us, in a way that we simply cannot. Of course this is offered to all people. It is a shame that so many do choose to reject it, by not choosing Him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we all sin, and thus on this logic no one would enter Heaven. But I'm sure that's not what the person means by God and co-existing with sin.

My view would be that whatever it is you think has to happen after death to cleanse the person of sin would be offered to all people. I suppose you could reject it.

Ah, but we as Christians do. Because we are cleansed, renewed and washed by the blood of Christ. He has paid for our sin for us, in a way that we simply cannot. Of course this is offered to all people. It is a shame that so many do choose to reject it, by not choosing Him.

But I take it you think it is offered and must be accepted before death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we all sin, and thus on this logic no one would enter Heaven. But I'm sure that's not what the person means by God and co-existing with sin.

My view would be that whatever it is you think has to happen after death to cleanse the person of sin would be offered to all people. I suppose you could reject it.

Ah, but we as Christians do. Because we are cleansed, renewed and washed by the blood of Christ. He has paid for our sin for us, in a way that we simply cannot. Of course this is offered to all people. It is a shame that so many do choose to reject it, by not choosing Him.

But I take it you think it is offered and must be accepted before death.

That is correct, yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we all sin, and thus on this logic no one would enter Heaven. But I'm sure that's not what the person means by God and co-existing with sin.

My view would be that whatever it is you think has to happen after death to cleanse the person of sin would be offered to all people. I suppose you could reject it.

Ah, but we as Christians do. Because we are cleansed, renewed and washed by the blood of Christ. He has paid for our sin for us, in a way that we simply cannot. Of course this is offered to all people. It is a shame that so many do choose to reject it, by not choosing Him.

But I take it you think it is offered and must be accepted before death.

That is correct, yes.

That is precisely what I find ridiculous and cannot believe a loving god would require.
God rejects those who were born into another religion and followed that with their family and culture their whole lives? What kind of god would do that?

[Anonymous]

I'm still dying to know what a PP meant by the afterlife being the atheists' loophole. I don't know any who believe in an afterlife.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we all sin, and thus on this logic no one would enter Heaven. But I'm sure that's not what the person means by God and co-existing with sin.

My view would be that whatever it is you think has to happen after death to cleanse the person of sin would be offered to all people. I suppose you could reject it.

Ah, but we as Christians do. Because we are cleansed, renewed and washed by the blood of Christ. He has paid for our sin for us, in a way that we simply cannot. Of course this is offered to all people. It is a shame that so many do choose to reject it, by not choosing Him.

But I take it you think it is offered and must be accepted before death.

That is correct, yes.

That is precisely what I find ridiculous and cannot believe a loving god would require.
God rejects those who were born into another religion and followed that with their family and culture their whole lives? What kind of god would do that?

Fortunately, I am not in charge that, and neither are you. All I can do is tell you what Jesus says: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No One gets to the Father, except through me.

[Anonymous]

It is unfortunate that 'fire and brimstone' Christianity has developed such a strong hold on people's imagination. "Salvation" in early Christianity was not primarily intended as 'a ticket out of hell'.

Anyhow, I prefer to translate what's usually translated as faith in English with the word Trust (in my native language the word "faith" is the same as what spouses promise to each other, to trust and be trusteorthy).

So basically to trust in God is to love him and wanting to be with him. Heaven is to be with him, hell away from him. But hell only looks like hell from heaven's point of view. It is freely chosen, and no one on hell really wants to go to heaven. Why would they!? Be there with a God you never knew is not that appealing.

From here:http://www.redeemer.com/redeemer-report/article/the_importance_of_hell

"What is hell, then? It is God actively giving us up to what we have freely chosen-to go our own way, be our own "the master of our fate, the captain of our soul," to get away from him and his control. It is God banishing us to regions we have desperately tried to get into all our lives. J.I.Packer writes: "Scripture sees hell as self-chosen . . . [H]ell appears as God's gesture of respect for human choice. All receive what they actually chose, either to be with God forever, worshipping him, or without God forever, worshipping themselves." (J.I.Packer, Concise Theology p.262-263.) If the thing you most want is to worship God in the beauty of his holiness, then that is what you will get (Ps 96:9-13.) If the thing you most want is to be your own master, then the holiness of God will become an agony, and the presence of God a terror you will flee forever (Rev 6:16; cf. Is 6:1-6.)"

[Anonymous]

In response to OP, why would God reward faith/trust in him as opposed to good behavior?

Assuming you are asking this in reference to Christian docrine, then the answer is that no one is good enough for God, and only those who see that and rely (aka trust/have faith) in his mercy can be 'transformed' by him.

The short of it is that if you think you can "make it on your own" by your own moral muscles, you won't, because even assuming you behave perfectly, you will commit the sin of smugness (pride) by thinking you are good enough.

If you think you are NOT good enough, and that you can "make it" only because of God forgiveness and mercy, then you will, because Jesus has done for you what you could not do by yourself.