Here's the thing I don't understand about husbands who don't help out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with these threads is that really there are a few different types of couples out there in the wild.

1) The genuinely mutual respectful couple where the guy was raised right and proactively seeks an egalitarian relationship without prompting and the woman communicates well and pulls her weight as well

2) The mutually respectful couple where the guy didn't grow up knowing this stuff but does love and respect his wife and so works with her to figure out how to be a good husband when she gets upset

3) The crappy husband and wife who tries a million times to get her husband to understand he needs to pull his own weight and he just doesn't really care and will never really exert effort to try to lighten her load

4) The mediocre husband and the wife who responds by nagging and is passive aggressive and hostile

5) The mediocre/crappy husband and wife who just accepts his crappiness and does everything on her own and is miserable but never does anything about it.

All of those couples need different advise and depending on which one you're in you give different advise.

My parents had #1 and my husband was raised by a single mother and had to do his own chores/laundry/cook since she had to work 2 jobs.

We have a #1. I saw mutual respect and effort and love from both parents and my husband respects women because of watching what his mother sacrificed and did for him...and learned household chores to fend for himself and younger brother.

I cannot fathom a 'traditional' household: women jobs to look pretty and serve the men because my dad was such a great dad to girls and let us know we could do anything and we didn't get out of 'boy' chores like mowing the lawn and my brother didn't get out of 'setting the table', etc. I became a scientist and a competitive athlete. I only later found out I was considered 'beautiful' because such little emphasis was placed on looks---it was placed on DOING and accomplishments within one's control. All of us were also raised to always have a means to support ourselves in life---don't rely on somebody else for that. You never know what will happen in life---or even what somebody else may be capable of doing.

Nice humblebrag 👍

I thought it was necessary given this forum is filled with posters that glorify the 1950s model.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with these threads is that really there are a few different types of couples out there in the wild.

1) The genuinely mutual respectful couple where the guy was raised right and proactively seeks an egalitarian relationship without prompting and the woman communicates well and pulls her weight as well

2) The mutually respectful couple where the guy didn't grow up knowing this stuff but does love and respect his wife and so works with her to figure out how to be a good husband when she gets upset

3) The crappy husband and wife who tries a million times to get her husband to understand he needs to pull his own weight and he just doesn't really care and will never really exert effort to try to lighten her load

4) The mediocre husband and the wife who responds by nagging and is passive aggressive and hostile

5) The mediocre/crappy husband and wife who just accepts his crappiness and does everything on her own and is miserable but never does anything about it.

All of those couples need different advise and depending on which one you're in you give different advise.

+1

Very astute. And there are probably a million shades of variation within each of these categories, and there are probably marriages that start in one category and evolve into another over time (especially with the addition of children, which I think can move a lot of previously egalitarian marriages into very unchartered territory no matter the best intentions of both parties).

I'm the PP. I'm in a number 2 and grateful to be there but sometimes I think it makes me give advise that frames every relationship as salvageable and I try to remind myself that my marriage succeeds not just because I am a good communicator, but because my husband is a good receiver. Some women really should walk away, its just really hard to tell where a person is based on their own subjective narrative about their relationship. My dad is a psychiatrist and says there are always three truths in a marriage, each person's side and the marriage's side, and that is something I have found to be very true.

[Anonymous]

I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^Problem is that you assume they care. Plenty of men don't care AT ALL if they live in filth and squalor or whether their meals are nutritious that they feed their families. They just don't care and are never going to do it themselves.

I knew plenty of guys in college that never cleaned the bathroom once and just moved to a new apartment every year. They'd scrub the one fork they were going to use, but leave the rest dirty or eat out every night. Basically living like pigs.

Sure, there are men who live in squalor. However, most men also find this unacceptable. If someone is willing to live with dirty diapers on the floor and unable to get a child ready properly, then they need to see a mental health professional.

The majority of men who don’t pitch in are simply taking advantage of unpaid labor of their DW. Guarantee you diaper guy has A relatively clean office at work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

Yeah see I would have given my husband three options:

1. Do your share
2. Hire someone to do it (In your case a housekeeper multiple times a week)
3. I move out with 50/50 custody

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I think the bolded is a key key key point and something everyone should really try to think about before having kids. Having childcare fall all on the mom IS a choice. I know it doesn't feel like one but it is. It is hard to force equality into that first year, but IMO it is one of the best things you can do for a marriage. Leave the baby with dad for hours and don't check in 15 times. Pump and if pumping doesn't work then supplement. I know this will set people off but I do not understand people that sacrifice their marriage for EBF. Early motherhood is uncomfortable, you learn to do all those things because you're in the moment and have to figure it out. Force your husband to go through that as well, even if it is uncomfortable for you (not you specifically pp just generally women) and it will pay dividends in the years to come.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Ok for all the women defending this bad behavior from men. What would you say to the attorney OP was referencing? She’s the only one working, with 2 kids at home, no help and an unemployed husband. If he refused to take the two kids to the grocery store because he “can’t” juggle them and the task of selecting groceries, what would you say?

Ok honey?

Kid should not be going to the grocery store during Covid. Only one person per household should go.

Absent the pandemic, I would think it means he is totally pathetic. I agree that woman is in a very bad situation.

It’s not related to the pandemic. He’s just “bad at chores” as she says.

He’s got her totally snowed thinking he is incapable of doing basic adult tasks. He’s just lazy and can’t be bothered to get off his ass to help his own wife. It’s really sad. And the amount of women in here defending men like him! I really don’t get that.

I agree.

I date a lot of divorced dads. Most of them cite (as do my female friends who are divorced) one of the reasons they divorced as being tension over work life balance and household chores. The irony is, then the wives divorce the men and then the men have to run their households all on their own. And you know what? Almost all of the men I’ve dated rise to the occasion and run their households and take care of their kids perfectly fine once they are divorced and they no longer can rely on their wife. They’re capable of doing these things. A few men I’ve encountered are clearly looking for wife replacements to step in and take care of things but I avoid those men like the plague.

[Anonymous]

If my husband went grocery shopping and picked out the wrong things - oh well, we'd make it work.
If he cleaned the bathroom and did a bad job - my opinion only. No reason MY opinion determines everything.
If he said he was going to the grocery store and leaving the children at home - I'd say, "no, that doesn't work for me. You're taking them."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I think the bolded is a key key key point and something everyone should really try to think about before having kids. Having childcare fall all on the mom IS a choice. I know it doesn't feel like one but it is. It is hard to force equality into that first year, but IMO it is one of the best things you can do for a marriage. Leave the baby with dad for hours and don't check in 15 times. Pump and if pumping doesn't work then supplement. I know this will set people off but I do not understand people that sacrifice their marriage for EBF. Early motherhood is uncomfortable, you learn to do all those things because you're in the moment and have to figure it out. Force your husband to go through that as well, even if it is uncomfortable for you (not you specifically pp just generally women) and it will pay dividends in the years to come.

What if when you leave DH alone with the baby, bad things happen? And no, not CPS level things, but bad things nonetheless, like:

-2 yo on the verge of being potty trained never gets reminded to go to the bathroom and has accidents in her pants, which are not addressed immediately so she sits in wet underwear

-1.5 yo who has been weaned off of bottles is given mutiple bottles full of milk Because that’s easier than preparing and making food or coming up with other ways to soothe baby

-baby and 2 yo literally spend 3-4 hours straight in front of the TV

-2 yo ends up, every single time, getting hurt. DH not hurting the kid, and not bad enough to go to ER, but I’m talking major wipe outs with multiple scrapes/bumps/bruises.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

Yeah see I would have given my husband three options:

1. Do your share
2. Hire someone to do it (In your case a housekeeper multiple times a week)
3. I move out with 50/50 custody

I did hire it out for a few years after my third was born. I couldn’t do it anymore, and he started expecting that it would be done. We had a housekeeper 25 hours/week. I don’t really recall giving DH an option, but maybe I did.

My point was just that this was gradual. It wasn’t like we moved in together and he didn’t know how to take care of himself, so I taught him how.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Great post! And great synopsis too. I think I'm going to save that list just to I can cut-and-paste it at the beginning of these types of threads (sarcastically), thereby hopefully preempting all the anti-feminists from swooping in to blame and one-up the beleaguered OP... and perhaps then we can actually proceed to a more supportive and constructive discussion.

So what do you think a constructive discussion would entail that doesn't hit at least one of these points?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I think the bolded is a key key key point and something everyone should really try to think about before having kids. Having childcare fall all on the mom IS a choice. I know it doesn't feel like one but it is. It is hard to force equality into that first year, but IMO it is one of the best things you can do for a marriage. Leave the baby with dad for hours and don't check in 15 times. Pump and if pumping doesn't work then supplement. I know this will set people off but I do not understand people that sacrifice their marriage for EBF. Early motherhood is uncomfortable, you learn to do all those things because you're in the moment and have to figure it out. Force your husband to go through that as well, even if it is uncomfortable for you (not you specifically pp just generally women) and it will pay dividends in the years to come.

You have no idea what women with different kinds of husbands go through. My husband was very involved with our first baby. With the second one, he just refused. He would not give the baby a bottle. He fell asleep when he was left alone with them. Everything I did made him angry. I didn't have the energy to fight this battle, while also having two small children and working full-time. This was not my unwillingness to be uncomfortable, it was his decision to check out of parenting. I made extremely clear to him this was not ok, but I was not prepared to leave him at that point. And when he did improve (with counseling playing a big role), that was ultimately his choice, not something I could have forced him into.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Problem is that you assume they care. Plenty of men don't care AT ALL if they live in filth and squalor or whether their meals are nutritious that they feed their families. They just don't care and are never going to do it themselves.

I knew plenty of guys in college that never cleaned the bathroom once and just moved to a new apartment every year. They'd scrub the one fork they were going to use, but leave the rest dirty or eat out every night. Basically living like pigs.

Sure, there are men who live in squalor. However, most men also find this unacceptable. If someone is willing to live with dirty diapers on the floor and unable to get a child ready properly, then they need to see a mental health professional.

The majority of men who don’t pitch in are simply taking advantage of unpaid labor of their DW. Guarantee you diaper guy has A relatively clean office at work.

Likely not. Women get stuck cleaning up men's messes at work too. I remember when I (a young lawyer) got stuck on a rotating duty to clean the fridge and also do records filing. I didn't mind doing that, but the guys who were just as new as me didn't get tasked it. Only women got tasked with items like that and we had higher degrees than the men too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, OP, you sound like his Mother. Your way of teaching your DH to clean the bathroom is how I teach my sons. My DH knows how to clean a bathroom better than I do by learning from his Mother. If your DH is not cleaning the bathroom to your standards, then you should be the one with that chore, or you should learn to accept the way he does it. I mean, you can tell him you don't think it's clean enough, and if he wants you to teach him, then go for it, but don't think it helps any relationship to treat your partner like a child.

I don't get mad at my DH when he forgets stuff from the grocery store because he can't find the stuff he wanted just as often as what I wanted. I don't have to teach him how to clean (he's better at most cleaning than I am), but when we were dating and I told him he was loading the dishwasher wrong it led to something like a 4 week standoff because he can't handle criticism at all. He had to break the dishwasher and have a technician come out and tell him exactly what I said he was doing wrong before he changed his ways. I don't think you can teach or train a grown man to be better at basic tasks, you have to choose to marry one that's not a screw-up to begin with (which, dishwasher incident notwithstanding, is what I did). This is why I have more sympathy for women who realize their DH's suck at childcare than cleaning - that one is at least partially unknowable before the fact.

Man, I feel bad for you. He can’t find the things he wanted. You know what I’d say to a teenager? Well, did you ASK someone for help?? Plus now they have apps for that.

I don't think you should feel bad for me. Coming home with 18/20 things on the grocery list is simply not a big deal to me, and if I'm not bothered you shouldn't waste your pity.

It’s just so pathetic. I’m not being snarky, I’m being absolutely serious.

My wife and I split the grocery shopping pretty evenly. If one of us forgot to get something, here's the progression once we get home:

- Do we need it this week for a planned meal, or because it's an essential (someone is out of dedorant, for example). If yes, then you go back. If not immediately, then soon. If no, then we may not go back, immediately, or at all. Or we might, if we had the time and were so inclined. It's really not that difficult.

The amount of disrespect shown in this thread, flowing both ways, is truly stunning.

And I presume that if you couldn’t find something necessary for this week, you’d ask an employee for help? That’s the point. You wouldn’t just shrug your shoulders, think of we’ll I tried, then leave it to your wife to fix.

Of course.

If there are people who have a list of groceries, can't find something on it, and just shrug their shoulders and leave without asking someone, that's beyond pathetic. Man or woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Uh, isn’t that what the OP is advocating? She’s saying women should call their useless husbands out on their lazy, half asssed behavior and say they know it’s an act that isn’t fooling anyone.

She is saying that she doesn't understand why women EVER complain about feeling burdened by unfair dynamics in their marriages. And then proceeds to explain that she has figured out the one correct way to fix the problem, which any intelligent woman would have figured out by now. It's condescending and assumes women are to blame for their husband's behavior.

There are women who do this constantly. They claim to be feminists, but then explain that the reason other women are unhappy in their relationships with men is their own fault for being "bad feminists." It's like "Rah Rah Women!" but then "Girls, You're Doing It Wrong! Here is My 24-Part Approach For Being a Better Wife, Mother, Girlboss, Sexual Partner, and Friend. Hint: You Suck!"

+1 The reason we can't get it straightened out in my family has a big part to do with my husband's OCD and chronic disease, which make all of her suggestions pretty untenable. But don't worry, I'm sure I'd be a failure either way.