Therapist Won't Condemn my Partner's Affair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let's be honest here. Your husband is a douchebag and needs to apologize IMMEDIATELY.

I would start with individual therapy. And then decide if you give your two-timing, double-dealing, lying, sneaking, pathetic husband another chance. I'd make him work for it. I'd make him work HARD for it. Honestly, you're better than this. And you don't need this jerk. But time will tell. And you don't need some snowflake therapist normalizing his dangerous and deceitful activity.

What if the Husband wrote this? Lots of people here assuming the cheater was a guy. Why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. I’m gonna let you in on a secret learned from the hard experience of my now ex’s infidelity —-

Apologies are words. When (if) you get an apology, you will not know if it is sincere or not. Your DH is a liar and has told you many lies to carry out the affair. An apology may be just one more of the many lies. Or, it’s possible that it may be the last lie - possible but not probable.

You would be much better off watching your DH’s behavior; that is the real tell. Is he remorseful? Does he treat you with kindness? Has he come clean and told you everything without prompting? Does he acknowledge that the affair is stems from his own weakness or does he blame you or the marriage? Is he engaging in DARVO - (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender)? Is making an effort to spend timely pleasantly with you? Is he tolerant when you are triggered? Has he opened all the books, i.e. is he voluntarily giving you full access to all phone, text, email, finances, etc. ?

What he does on his own without prompting from you will really tell you far more than any words of apology.

THIS! Everyone should read these wise words. Excellent post.

Except use "she" not "he"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What the hell is the point of seeing a therapist if they wont identify the problem?

Are you supposed to see a therapist so they can convince you that your cheating spouse didnt really that bad of a person?

Am I to spend $150 an hour to let them off the hook?

F that.

FYI $150 / hr ? Easily 2 to 3 x that in DC area

[Anonymous]

You need an apology.
You need an apology from your spouse.
Your therapist is not your spouse.
Your therapist is there to mediate conversations between you and your spouse.

If you need an apology from your spouse, say that to your spouse in front of the therapist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What the hell is the point of seeing a therapist if they wont identify the problem?

Are you supposed to see a therapist so they can convince you that your cheating spouse didnt really that bad of a person?

Am I to spend $150 an hour to let them off the hook?

F that.

They help you talk to each other, understand each other and see what is possible moving forward. THEIR opinion if the partner does not matter. They are not a parent or a judge. They facilitate communication and understanding (as in insights, not condoning )

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a therapist.

I know of zero couples therapists who will work with a couple where one partner is actively physically or sexually abusing the other. Emotional abuse is treated differently because while it is a terrible way to treat another person and very damaging in many ways, as a PP said, there are fewer actual safety risks and it is not actually a crime. Most of the people I know who work with couples see a lot of infidelity. Couples therapy demands that both partners be committed to the process of reconciling/improving the relationship/however it is defined. If one person is still actively cheating, they are demonstrably not committed in that way and it is difficult to counsel _the couple_ on how to move forward. The one time this has happened in my practice, I terminated the relationship with both partners, explaining very clearly that active infidelity, to me, is as counter to the couples therapy process as active physical abuse. I then referred them both for individual therapy with people I knew who had openings and let them know that had openings and also let them know that if partner 1 ended the affair and wanted to recommit to therapy with partner 2, I would be happy to see them again. They came back about 6 months later but ended up divorcing anyway.

So the question to you is what would you do where one spouse isn’t actually apologizing or feeling regretful of cheating? Would you do what OP’s therapist did?

I am also a therapist but not the one who answered originally. I concur with her/his statement.

I would not give an opinion on whether cheating is wrong, we truly are not there to pass judgement. Also it would alienate the other party, you can't feel alienated and be open to therapy. But I would be direct and tell the couple that the chances counseling will be successful is pretty much zero if the cheater isn't remorseful and willing to do anything and everything to save the marriage. The first move has to come from the person who strayed. I would be reluctantant to work with them for this reason.

I’m the original therapist.

I think for me, the most important thing about OP’s post is that this occurred in the first session. So yes, I would feel like I was not in a position to pass judgment. I only just met you guys! I need to get to know the couple a little better (I’d say it takes me more like 2-3 sessions to have a good grip on the dynamic but it depends on the couple). However, it should be that during the initial sessions, the therapist is building rapport with both partners. That didn’t happen effectively at OP’s therapy session. I’d like to think that I don’t step in it the way it sounds like happened for OP, but it’s also hard because if OP is wanting the therapist to join with her in indignation and betrayal, that’s just not the therapist’s role.

This is why people find therapy as a major waste of time for infidelity. If someone is cheating then they need to stop. The person in the fog needs to come to terms about where they are and what they are about to lose. That would be so refreshing. That's what people expect and you are giving them the run around. Just give the people what they want. Just ask them.

I remember being told that I couldn't insult the OM because that hurts my wife and I just need to deal with my ego issues in individual therapy.

So, be forewarned, if your spouse is cheating on you, don't go to therapy! It will not likely help. Just get yourself a lawyer and a postnup.

OG therapist again.

I don't know that I agree that therapy is contraindicated if your spouse has cheated on you. I agree that if you are coming to therapy, the cheating needs to stop. In theory, you come to therapy in order to stay married, address the cheating, and figure out a way to move forward. I don't think most people need a therapist to tell them "stop cheating on your spouse if you want to stay married to your spouse." Seems like common sense to me.

Where I take issue with people like OP is that they seem to expect that the therapist's role is to yell at the cheating spouse and condemn the affair. I understand that that might feel extremely validating for the OP and other people who have been in that position, to have someone take their side and yell at their spouse. But it doesn't do much to further the idea of "moving forward." As for what you said about your wife's affair partner, I think it really depends on what you said. Everyone has ground rules for the way that people are allowed to speak in session. What does insulting the OM do to further the goal of moving forward in the relationship?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What the hell is the point of seeing a therapist if they wont identify the problem?

Are you supposed to see a therapist so they can convince you that your cheating spouse didnt really that bad of a person?

Am I to spend $150 an hour to let them off the hook?

F that.

They help you talk to each other, understand each other and see what is possible moving forward. THEIR opinion if the partner does not matter. They are not a parent or a judge. They facilitate communication and understanding (as in insights, not condoning )

I walked in and the first thing she said to my wife is that "you have feelings for him, right? You probably want to see him again."

I cannot repeat this enough, do not go to therapy. A postnup is 1000x better than the best marriage counselor. Often, infidelity does not lead to a favorable judgement in a divorce. There's no consequence for cheating. A postnup, that's heavily in favor of the victimized spouse, will make people reconsider their behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a therapist.

I know of zero couples therapists who will work with a couple where one partner is actively physically or sexually abusing the other. Emotional abuse is treated differently because while it is a terrible way to treat another person and very damaging in many ways, as a PP said, there are fewer actual safety risks and it is not actually a crime. Most of the people I know who work with couples see a lot of infidelity. Couples therapy demands that both partners be committed to the process of reconciling/improving the relationship/however it is defined. If one person is still actively cheating, they are demonstrably not committed in that way and it is difficult to counsel _the couple_ on how to move forward. The one time this has happened in my practice, I terminated the relationship with both partners, explaining very clearly that active infidelity, to me, is as counter to the couples therapy process as active physical abuse. I then referred them both for individual therapy with people I knew who had openings and let them know that had openings and also let them know that if partner 1 ended the affair and wanted to recommit to therapy with partner 2, I would be happy to see them again. They came back about 6 months later but ended up divorcing anyway.

So the question to you is what would you do where one spouse isn’t actually apologizing or feeling regretful of cheating? Would you do what OP’s therapist did?

I am also a therapist but not the one who answered originally. I concur with her/his statement.

I would not give an opinion on whether cheating is wrong, we truly are not there to pass judgement. Also it would alienate the other party, you can't feel alienated and be open to therapy. But I would be direct and tell the couple that the chances counseling will be successful is pretty much zero if the cheater isn't remorseful and willing to do anything and everything to save the marriage. The first move has to come from the person who strayed. I would be reluctantant to work with them for this reason.

I’m the original therapist.

I think for me, the most important thing about OP’s post is that this occurred in the first session. So yes, I would feel like I was not in a position to pass judgment. I only just met you guys! I need to get to know the couple a little better (I’d say it takes me more like 2-3 sessions to have a good grip on the dynamic but it depends on the couple). However, it should be that during the initial sessions, the therapist is building rapport with both partners. That didn’t happen effectively at OP’s therapy session. I’d like to think that I don’t step in it the way it sounds like happened for OP, but it’s also hard because if OP is wanting the therapist to join with her in indignation and betrayal, that’s just not the therapist’s role.

“My father’s words hurt even worse than the hitting, because words lasted long after the marks faded. They lasted forever.” (from Estranged, by Jessica Berger Gross)

This quote - from a physical and emotional abuse survivor - illustrates how emotional abuse cannot be subordinated to physical abuse. They are both devastating and both carry lifelong negative impacts.

You two therapists need to deeply reconsider your working methodology. There are many abuses that once were either not a crime, a crime but not prosecuted or even legally sanctioned by society - date rape, marital rape, domestic violence, etc. Your job as a therapist is to recognize abuse wherever it occurs and help victims of abuse protect themselves and become empowered. If you are not doing this because the abuse is “not a crime” then you are at best a bystander, who by virtue of diminishing the emotional abuse is allaying with and serving the perpetrator and your “therapy” creates additional trauma by presenting to the victim what should be a place of healing and safety but instead is a way for the perpetrator to continue to abuse under your eye.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a therapist.

I know of zero couples therapists who will work with a couple where one partner is actively physically or sexually abusing the other. Emotional abuse is treated differently because while it is a terrible way to treat another person and very damaging in many ways, as a PP said, there are fewer actual safety risks and it is not actually a crime. Most of the people I know who work with couples see a lot of infidelity. Couples therapy demands that both partners be committed to the process of reconciling/improving the relationship/however it is defined. If one person is still actively cheating, they are demonstrably not committed in that way and it is difficult to counsel _the couple_ on how to move forward. The one time this has happened in my practice, I terminated the relationship with both partners, explaining very clearly that active infidelity, to me, is as counter to the couples therapy process as active physical abuse. I then referred them both for individual therapy with people I knew who had openings and let them know that had openings and also let them know that if partner 1 ended the affair and wanted to recommit to therapy with partner 2, I would be happy to see them again. They came back about 6 months later but ended up divorcing anyway.

So the question to you is what would you do where one spouse isn’t actually apologizing or feeling regretful of cheating? Would you do what OP’s therapist did?

I am also a therapist but not the one who answered originally. I concur with her/his statement.

I would not give an opinion on whether cheating is wrong, we truly are not there to pass judgement. Also it would alienate the other party, you can't feel alienated and be open to therapy. But I would be direct and tell the couple that the chances counseling will be successful is pretty much zero if the cheater isn't remorseful and willing to do anything and everything to save the marriage. The first move has to come from the person who strayed. I would be reluctantant to work with them for this reason.

I’m the original therapist.

I think for me, the most important thing about OP’s post is that this occurred in the first session. So yes, I would feel like I was not in a position to pass judgment. I only just met you guys! I need to get to know the couple a little better (I’d say it takes me more like 2-3 sessions to have a good grip on the dynamic but it depends on the couple). However, it should be that during the initial sessions, the therapist is building rapport with both partners. That didn’t happen effectively at OP’s therapy session. I’d like to think that I don’t step in it the way it sounds like happened for OP, but it’s also hard because if OP is wanting the therapist to join with her in indignation and betrayal, that’s just not the therapist’s role.

This is why people find therapy as a major waste of time for infidelity. If someone is cheating then they need to stop. The person in the fog needs to come to terms about where they are and what they are about to lose. That would be so refreshing. That's what people expect and you are giving them the run around. Just give the people what they want. Just ask them.

I remember being told that I couldn't insult the OM because that hurts my wife and I just need to deal with my ego issues in individual therapy.

So, be forewarned, if your spouse is cheating on you, don't go to therapy! It will not likely help. Just get yourself a lawyer and a postnup.

OG therapist again.

I don't know that I agree that therapy is contraindicated if your spouse has cheated on you. I agree that if you are coming to therapy, the cheating needs to stop. In theory, you come to therapy in order to stay married, address the cheating, and figure out a way to move forward. I don't think most people need a therapist to tell them "stop cheating on your spouse if you want to stay married to your spouse." Seems like common sense to me.

Where I take issue with people like OP is that they seem to expect that the therapist's role is to yell at the cheating spouse and condemn the affair. I understand that that might feel extremely validating for the OP and other people who have been in that position, to have someone take their side and yell at their spouse. But it doesn't do much to further the idea of "moving forward." As for what you said about your wife's affair partner, I think it really depends on what you said. Everyone has ground rules for the way that people are allowed to speak in session. What does insulting the OM do to further the goal of moving forward in the relationship?

Clearly you haven't been in the seat of the victim. Yes, in most cases, a cheater will need to be told that they need to stop cheating. People here are telling you that's the case, but you refuse to take that in. Don't just assume that people get that. And stop with the hyperbole, you do not need to yell. Just tell the person "this isn't going to work if you're still cheating." That's all we want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a therapist.

I know of zero couples therapists who will work with a couple where one partner is actively physically or sexually abusing the other. Emotional abuse is treated differently because while it is a terrible way to treat another person and very damaging in many ways, as a PP said, there are fewer actual safety risks and it is not actually a crime. Most of the people I know who work with couples see a lot of infidelity. Couples therapy demands that both partners be committed to the process of reconciling/improving the relationship/however it is defined. If one person is still actively cheating, they are demonstrably not committed in that way and it is difficult to counsel _the couple_ on how to move forward. The one time this has happened in my practice, I terminated the relationship with both partners, explaining very clearly that active infidelity, to me, is as counter to the couples therapy process as active physical abuse. I then referred them both for individual therapy with people I knew who had openings and let them know that had openings and also let them know that if partner 1 ended the affair and wanted to recommit to therapy with partner 2, I would be happy to see them again. They came back about 6 months later but ended up divorcing anyway.

So the question to you is what would you do where one spouse isn’t actually apologizing or feeling regretful of cheating? Would you do what OP’s therapist did?

I am also a therapist but not the one who answered originally. I concur with her/his statement.

I would not give an opinion on whether cheating is wrong, we truly are not there to pass judgement. Also it would alienate the other party, you can't feel alienated and be open to therapy. But I would be direct and tell the couple that the chances counseling will be successful is pretty much zero if the cheater isn't remorseful and willing to do anything and everything to save the marriage. The first move has to come from the person who strayed. I would be reluctantant to work with them for this reason.

I’m the original therapist.

I think for me, the most important thing about OP’s post is that this occurred in the first session. So yes, I would feel like I was not in a position to pass judgment. I only just met you guys! I need to get to know the couple a little better (I’d say it takes me more like 2-3 sessions to have a good grip on the dynamic but it depends on the couple). However, it should be that during the initial sessions, the therapist is building rapport with both partners. That didn’t happen effectively at OP’s therapy session. I’d like to think that I don’t step in it the way it sounds like happened for OP, but it’s also hard because if OP is wanting the therapist to join with her in indignation and betrayal, that’s just not the therapist’s role.

“My father’s words hurt even worse than the hitting, because words lasted long after the marks faded. They lasted forever.” (from Estranged, by Jessica Berger Gross)

This quote - from a physical and emotional abuse survivor - illustrates how emotional abuse cannot be subordinated to physical abuse. They are both devastating and both carry lifelong negative impacts.

You two therapists need to deeply reconsider your working methodology. There are many abuses that once were either not a crime, a crime but not prosecuted or even legally sanctioned by society - date rape, marital rape, domestic violence, etc. Your job as a therapist is to recognize abuse wherever it occurs and help victims of abuse protect themselves and become empowered. If you are not doing this because the abuse is “not a crime” then you are at best a bystander, who by virtue of diminishing the emotional abuse is allaying with and serving the perpetrator and your “therapy” creates additional trauma by presenting to the victim what should be a place of healing and safety but instead is a way for the perpetrator to continue to abuse under your eye.

NP, but I disagree with almost the entirety of what you wrote here. That sounds like a role for OP's individual therapist, not a couples' therapist. If OP needs an apology (as would I!), it should come from the spouse not the therapist. Personally I wouldn't begin any couples' therapy with someone who didn't apologize and hadn't cut off all contact with the other woman. I don't know what the point of couples' therapy in that situation would be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a therapist.

I know of zero couples therapists who will work with a couple where one partner is actively physically or sexually abusing the other. Emotional abuse is treated differently because while it is a terrible way to treat another person and very damaging in many ways, as a PP said, there are fewer actual safety risks and it is not actually a crime. Most of the people I know who work with couples see a lot of infidelity. Couples therapy demands that both partners be committed to the process of reconciling/improving the relationship/however it is defined. If one person is still actively cheating, they are demonstrably not committed in that way and it is difficult to counsel _the couple_ on how to move forward. The one time this has happened in my practice, I terminated the relationship with both partners, explaining very clearly that active infidelity, to me, is as counter to the couples therapy process as active physical abuse. I then referred them both for individual therapy with people I knew who had openings and let them know that had openings and also let them know that if partner 1 ended the affair and wanted to recommit to therapy with partner 2, I would be happy to see them again. They came back about 6 months later but ended up divorcing anyway.

So the question to you is what would you do where one spouse isn’t actually apologizing or feeling regretful of cheating? Would you do what OP’s therapist did?

I am also a therapist but not the one who answered originally. I concur with her/his statement.

I would not give an opinion on whether cheating is wrong, we truly are not there to pass judgement. Also it would alienate the other party, you can't feel alienated and be open to therapy. But I would be direct and tell the couple that the chances counseling will be successful is pretty much zero if the cheater isn't remorseful and willing to do anything and everything to save the marriage. The first move has to come from the person who strayed. I would be reluctantant to work with them for this reason.

I’m the original therapist.

I think for me, the most important thing about OP’s post is that this occurred in the first session. So yes, I would feel like I was not in a position to pass judgment. I only just met you guys! I need to get to know the couple a little better (I’d say it takes me more like 2-3 sessions to have a good grip on the dynamic but it depends on the couple). However, it should be that during the initial sessions, the therapist is building rapport with both partners. That didn’t happen effectively at OP’s therapy session. I’d like to think that I don’t step in it the way it sounds like happened for OP, but it’s also hard because if OP is wanting the therapist to join with her in indignation and betrayal, that’s just not the therapist’s role.

“My father’s words hurt even worse than the hitting, because words lasted long after the marks faded. They lasted forever.” (from Estranged, by Jessica Berger Gross)

This quote - from a physical and emotional abuse survivor - illustrates how emotional abuse cannot be subordinated to physical abuse. They are both devastating and both carry lifelong negative impacts.

You two therapists need to deeply reconsider your working methodology. There are many abuses that once were either not a crime, a crime but not prosecuted or even legally sanctioned by society - date rape, marital rape, domestic violence, etc. Your job as a therapist is to recognize abuse wherever it occurs and help victims of abuse protect themselves and become empowered. If you are not doing this because the abuse is “not a crime” then you are at best a bystander, who by virtue of diminishing the emotional abuse is allaying with and serving the perpetrator and your “therapy” creates additional trauma by presenting to the victim what should be a place of healing and safety but instead is a way for the perpetrator to continue to abuse under your eye.

I'm confused. We're talking about couples therapy here. The therapists have said that they won't treat a *couple* when there is active physical abuse of infidelity, but refer the parties out to individual therapists, and will see them as a couple if the situation changes. That seems to make sense to me.

You are advocating that emotional abuse be treated the same way a physical abuse - which would mean that the couples therapist declines to threat the couple. Is that the outcome you want?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You need an apology.
You need an apology from your spouse.
Your therapist is not your spouse.
Your therapist is there to mediate conversations between you and your spouse.

If you need an apology from your spouse, say that to your spouse in front of the therapist.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a therapist.

I know of zero couples therapists who will work with a couple where one partner is actively physically or sexually abusing the other. Emotional abuse is treated differently because while it is a terrible way to treat another person and very damaging in many ways, as a PP said, there are fewer actual safety risks and it is not actually a crime. Most of the people I know who work with couples see a lot of infidelity. Couples therapy demands that both partners be committed to the process of reconciling/improving the relationship/however it is defined. If one person is still actively cheating, they are demonstrably not committed in that way and it is difficult to counsel _the couple_ on how to move forward. The one time this has happened in my practice, I terminated the relationship with both partners, explaining very clearly that active infidelity, to me, is as counter to the couples therapy process as active physical abuse. I then referred them both for individual therapy with people I knew who had openings and let them know that had openings and also let them know that if partner 1 ended the affair and wanted to recommit to therapy with partner 2, I would be happy to see them again. They came back about 6 months later but ended up divorcing anyway.

So the question to you is what would you do where one spouse isn’t actually apologizing or feeling regretful of cheating? Would you do what OP’s therapist did?

I am also a therapist but not the one who answered originally. I concur with her/his statement.

I would not give an opinion on whether cheating is wrong, we truly are not there to pass judgement. Also it would alienate the other party, you can't feel alienated and be open to therapy. But I would be direct and tell the couple that the chances counseling will be successful is pretty much zero if the cheater isn't remorseful and willing to do anything and everything to save the marriage. The first move has to come from the person who strayed. I would be reluctantant to work with them for this reason.

I’m the original therapist.

I think for me, the most important thing about OP’s post is that this occurred in the first session. So yes, I would feel like I was not in a position to pass judgment. I only just met you guys! I need to get to know the couple a little better (I’d say it takes me more like 2-3 sessions to have a good grip on the dynamic but it depends on the couple). However, it should be that during the initial sessions, the therapist is building rapport with both partners. That didn’t happen effectively at OP’s therapy session. I’d like to think that I don’t step in it the way it sounds like happened for OP, but it’s also hard because if OP is wanting the therapist to join with her in indignation and betrayal, that’s just not the therapist’s role.

“My father’s words hurt even worse than the hitting, because words lasted long after the marks faded. They lasted forever.” (from Estranged, by Jessica Berger Gross)

This quote - from a physical and emotional abuse survivor - illustrates how emotional abuse cannot be subordinated to physical abuse. They are both devastating and both carry lifelong negative impacts.

You two therapists need to deeply reconsider your working methodology. There are many abuses that once were either not a crime, a crime but not prosecuted or even legally sanctioned by society - date rape, marital rape, domestic violence, etc. Your job as a therapist is to recognize abuse wherever it occurs and help victims of abuse protect themselves and become empowered. If you are not doing this because the abuse is “not a crime” then you are at best a bystander, who by virtue of diminishing the emotional abuse is allaying with and serving the perpetrator and your “therapy” creates additional trauma by presenting to the victim what should be a place of healing and safety but instead is a way for the perpetrator to continue to abuse under your eye.

I'm confused. We're talking about couples therapy here. The therapists have said that they won't treat a *couple* when there is active physical abuse of infidelity, but refer the parties out to individual therapists, and will see them as a couple if the situation changes. That seems to make sense to me.

You are advocating that emotional abuse be treated the same way a physical abuse - which would mean that the couples therapist declines to threat the couple. Is that the outcome you want?

I'm the therapist above.

I want to be very clear that emotional abuse is extremely serious and damaging and should be treated accordingly.

I am not sure what the PP saying therapists should change their framework for emotional abuse is suggesting. Should therapists refuse to work with any couple in which one partner reports emotional abuse? The situation described in the OP - a spouse cheats and then refuses to admit any wrongdoing - sounds emotionally abusive to me, yet clearly the OP and their partner sought counseling to work on those issues. In the first session, the therapist was apparently not as validating of OP's feelings as OP hoped. Maybe the therapist is terrible. Maybe OP's expectations are unreasonable. Maybe it was unreasonable to go to therapy at all given that OP's spouse expresses no remorse for their actions. Any or all of those things should be true.

Marital and family therapy is really different from individual therapy. An individual therapist should absolutely be helping their client to become more empowered in their relationships, including recognizing when a relationship is unhealthy. But it's supporting the individual. A couple's therapist is addressing the relationship and supporting the relationship. If the answer is that the relationship is unhealthy and needs to be terminated, that is fine and CAN be addressed in therapy with the couple (a conscious uncoupling, though I hate that term personally), but I think most people would say that when a couple comes to therapy, their goal is usually to figure out how to stay married. That goal is not furthered if the therapist sides with one spouse against the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a therapist.

I know of zero couples therapists who will work with a couple where one partner is actively physically or sexually abusing the other. Emotional abuse is treated differently because while it is a terrible way to treat another person and very damaging in many ways, as a PP said, there are fewer actual safety risks and it is not actually a crime. Most of the people I know who work with couples see a lot of infidelity. Couples therapy demands that both partners be committed to the process of reconciling/improving the relationship/however it is defined. If one person is still actively cheating, they are demonstrably not committed in that way and it is difficult to counsel _the couple_ on how to move forward. The one time this has happened in my practice, I terminated the relationship with both partners, explaining very clearly that active infidelity, to me, is as counter to the couples therapy process as active physical abuse. I then referred them both for individual therapy with people I knew who had openings and let them know that had openings and also let them know that if partner 1 ended the affair and wanted to recommit to therapy with partner 2, I would be happy to see them again. They came back about 6 months later but ended up divorcing anyway.

So the question to you is what would you do where one spouse isn’t actually apologizing or feeling regretful of cheating? Would you do what OP’s therapist did?

I am also a therapist but not the one who answered originally. I concur with her/his statement.

I would not give an opinion on whether cheating is wrong, we truly are not there to pass judgement. Also it would alienate the other party, you can't feel alienated and be open to therapy. But I would be direct and tell the couple that the chances counseling will be successful is pretty much zero if the cheater isn't remorseful and willing to do anything and everything to save the marriage. The first move has to come from the person who strayed. I would be reluctantant to work with them for this reason.

I’m the original therapist.

I think for me, the most important thing about OP’s post is that this occurred in the first session. So yes, I would feel like I was not in a position to pass judgment. I only just met you guys! I need to get to know the couple a little better (I’d say it takes me more like 2-3 sessions to have a good grip on the dynamic but it depends on the couple). However, it should be that during the initial sessions, the therapist is building rapport with both partners. That didn’t happen effectively at OP’s therapy session. I’d like to think that I don’t step in it the way it sounds like happened for OP, but it’s also hard because if OP is wanting the therapist to join with her in indignation and betrayal, that’s just not the therapist’s role.

“My father’s words hurt even worse than the hitting, because words lasted long after the marks faded. They lasted forever.” (from Estranged, by Jessica Berger Gross)

This quote - from a physical and emotional abuse survivor - illustrates how emotional abuse cannot be subordinated to physical abuse. They are both devastating and both carry lifelong negative impacts.

You two therapists need to deeply reconsider your working methodology. There are many abuses that once were either not a crime, a crime but not prosecuted or even legally sanctioned by society - date rape, marital rape, domestic violence, etc. Your job as a therapist is to recognize abuse wherever it occurs and help victims of abuse protect themselves and become empowered. If you are not doing this because the abuse is “not a crime” then you are at best a bystander, who by virtue of diminishing the emotional abuse is allaying with and serving the perpetrator and your “therapy” creates additional trauma by presenting to the victim what should be a place of healing and safety but instead is a way for the perpetrator to continue to abuse under your eye.

I'm confused. We're talking about couples therapy here. The therapists have said that they won't treat a *couple* when there is active physical abuse of infidelity, but refer the parties out to individual therapists, and will see them as a couple if the situation changes. That seems to make sense to me.

You are advocating that emotional abuse be treated the same way a physical abuse - which would mean that the couples therapist declines to threat the couple. Is that the outcome you want?

I'm the therapist above.

I want to be very clear that emotional abuse is extremely serious and damaging and should be treated accordingly.

I am not sure what the PP saying therapists should change their framework for emotional abuse is suggesting. Should therapists refuse to work with any couple in which one partner reports emotional abuse? The situation described in the OP - a spouse cheats and then refuses to admit any wrongdoing - sounds emotionally abusive to me, yet clearly the OP and their partner sought counseling to work on those issues. In the first session, the therapist was apparently not as validating of OP's feelings as OP hoped. Maybe the therapist is terrible. Maybe OP's expectations are unreasonable. Maybe it was unreasonable to go to therapy at all given that OP's spouse expresses no remorse for their actions. Any or all of those things should be true.

Marital and family therapy is really different from individual therapy. An individual therapist should absolutely be helping their client to become more empowered in their relationships, including recognizing when a relationship is unhealthy. But it's supporting the individual. A couple's therapist is addressing the relationship and supporting the relationship. If the answer is that the relationship is unhealthy and needs to be terminated, that is fine and CAN be addressed in therapy with the couple (a conscious uncoupling, though I hate that term personally), but I think most people would say that when a couple comes to therapy, their goal is usually to figure out how to stay married. That goal is not furthered if the therapist sides with one spouse against the other.

Yes, if abuse is ongoing (emotional or physical) then the best practice is to work with the couples separately. If you are engaging in couples therapy only then you are perpetuating the abuse because, as you acknowledge, your "responsibility" is to the relationship not to the individual persons in the relationship. So, you are elevating the survival of the relationship over the individual health of the partners. You are subordinating the interests and health of the victim to the interests of the relationship, and the relationship is the way that the perpetrator maintains control over the victim. It is in this way that emotional abuse is OFTEN perpetuated in couples therapy which places pressure on the abused partner in the couple to "forgive" or change (their communication methods, their boundaries, their consequences, etc.) in the interest of maintaining the relationship.

You seem to think this is OK because the couple comes in saying they want to stay married. This really under-estimates the power dynamic. Women often want to stay in a relationship because of economic, parenting and cultural pressures, even if they are being abused. Ask yourself if a man was physically hitting a woman, and they came into your office saying they wanted to stay married -- would you continue to treat them together as a couple with no individual therapy? I hope not -- that would definitely be against best practices.

OP's initial post indicates that her DH isn't willing to say the affair was wrong. That's a non-starter for couples therapy. Perhaps the couples therapist could say it appears that the couple is not at the point yet of working together, and offer to work with them individually. But, that presents ethical problems about whose interests she really serves in the client/patient relationship. Better to refer them to individual therapists if one member of the couple refuses to acknowledge that the affair was wrong. You can't counsel couples if they don't both agree that the abuse (the infidelity) is a problem. This would be like counseling a couple where one partner was hitting the other and didn't see it as a wrong.

[Anonymous]

OP here. I wanted to sit back and watch this unfold. I'm a man. My wife was screwing her colleague. She would never have stopped. I found out by accident (several actually)

I had considered trying fixing things but I couldn't move past the fact that she actually didn't care that she was caught and destroyed our family. The only way this ended o its own was through fizzling out or moving. And that's the part that grossed me out the most. She was fine to play wife and family while the rest of us werent playing at all. We thought we were living real lives.