Kid five grade levels ahead

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People, the MAP test is adaptive so her child is getting above-grade level content. It's not the same as a child scoring at a "6th grade level" on a fixed 1st grade test.

Now that that's settled what a MAP P score shows is complicated. There are three versions with the MAP-P, the lowest version, only having content going up to a certain grade. The version is used for K-2nd but the content goes slightly higher but not up to 6th.

Teacher here. You are correct that there is a primary version of MAP. Your child is not taking the late elementary or middle grades version. Again, your child scored on the test the same way an 6th grader would, if he were taking the primary version of MAP. I hate when tests give grade level equivalents as this leads to a lot of confusion for parents, and it's not useful information for teachers either. The RIT score itself is much more helpful.

OP is this your child's first time taking MAP? It is important to look at the trend line over time. Often a child will score very high and then receive a lower score the next time, as the questions will start out very difficult due to the prior high score. In my experience the truly gifted children tackle these tough problems and maintain a score in the 99th percentile. These are the children who are in the total replacement math program in my district, and they account for about 5-10% of the class. There are other kids who tend to fluctuate between the 94th and 99th percentile, and those tend to be the classic high achievers or kids who are just doing well in math...bright, not gifted. There are many children like this in my high performing district. There are also kids whose trends are between the 80th and 99th percentiles, and this is pretty rare (maybe 5-10 percent of kids?). From what I have seen kids like this are more likely to hit those high percentiles in the younger grades.

OP, your child is bright. If you want to pursue outside testing, fine. If I were you I would just wait and see what his trend looks like over time. Enrich him at home. Hopefully his teachers are appropriate, engaging math and reading experiences as well.

OP this seems like good information to explain the MAP score- I'm the pp who encouraged you to review the Davidson website and to consider IQ testing of you truly feel your child is unchallenged or are seeing signs of giftedness beyond academic- advanced reasoning, problem solving, and creativity beyond what is expected. The WISC V is what my DS took. It's a good test to measure cognitive abilities and performance- it can provide a lot of valuable information going forward.
These achievement tests are confusing because they can seem to be above grade level tests, or have stifling ceilings for very bright kids (perhaps your DC hit the ceiling?). The only truly above grade level tests are those designed for older kids and taken by younger kids. I mentioned earlier that the ACT is an example- JHU requires the the SCAT for their CTY program. I believe this is an above grade level test.
The Woodcock Johnson and the WIAT is an adaptive test and I don't think there are limits. My son is a bit of a math whiz kid and was tested on some high level material, many years ahead of grade, before he finally topped out in this test. Profoundly gifted programs/schools may use the Woodcock Johnson or WIAT or EXPLORE achievement as one form of admittance eligibility- but they do not use the MAP perhaps because of the ceilings cited by the pp.

Thanks for all the info. I regret confusing things by even referencing the entire grade level ahead issue. Kid did not take the K-2 test. I think it's 2-7? (Teacher decided to use the higher version - I understand there is overlap). I don't think more tests is the answer right now (unless and until she is unhappy or not learning), but there is some useful insight and suggestions on this thread. It's more a concern for the future, middle school in particular, but perhaps things will even out and she will continue to have excellent teachers. Happy to hear that there are so many other kids who can do long multiplication/division of numbers in the millions +, multiply fractions, calculate area, probability, percentages, square root, add, subtract and multiply negative numbers etc. at age 7. Hopefully she'll meet them one day. Thanks.

pp here- I'm sorry the thread turned negative. One thing that we did around 3rd grade for math was engage a private tutor. The tutor helps DS on other aspects of applied math like showing work, explaining thinking, being methodical-- she also works with him on more advanced math and preparing for math competitions. It's been a godsend.
Language arts may be easier to accelerate within the class- more challenging reading material, for example. A lot of people will accuse you of hothousing your child- my opinion (demonstrated by my son again and again) - children do not learn what they are not ready to learn. It's immaterial whether your child was explicitly taught. People believe what makes them most comfortable- an talented athlete who practices is still a talented athlete- a gifted student who does extra is tiger parented and not "really" gifted.

Op is saying that she hasn't done anything extra for her child. If that is true and the child is self teaching herself why does she need a tutor?

[Anonymous]

Is Op's daughter learning this material via osmosis? Or does Op's daughter have an intuitive ability to understand math problems without having to be shown how to do them. Or is someone else teaching Op's child advanced math?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is Op's daughter learning this material via osmosis? Or does Op's daughter have an intuitive ability to understand math problems without having to be shown how to do them. Or is someone else teaching Op's child advanced math?

She said at school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Thanks for all the info. I regret confusing things by even referencing the entire grade level ahead issue. Kid did not take the K-2 test. I think it's 2-7? (Teacher decided to use the higher version - I understand there is overlap). I don't think more tests is the answer right now (unless and until she is unhappy or not learning), but there is some useful insight and suggestions on this thread. It's more a concern for the future, middle school in particular, but perhaps things will even out and she will continue to have excellent teachers. Happy to hear that there are so many other kids who can do long multiplication/division of numbers in the millions +, multiply fractions, calculate area, probability, percentages, square root, add, subtract and multiply negative numbers etc. at age 7. Hopefully she'll meet them one day. Thanks.

OP, I think you need to own your Tiger Mom parenting style. You keep being very defensive saying you're a laid back person but you really aren't if you actually know your child can do this and you've clearly taught your child these things. You claim not to know how she was tested when you clearly do know not only the name of the test but the version. How you are is not a bad thing. A lot of parents must be envious of you and your child. But it really makes me cringe when you come on here and pretend you are this clueless very chill parent. You definitely aren't. You belong at my DC's school where the parents are all very competitive and there are a number of little DCs just like yours.

1. I didn't teach any of these things. Kid taught herself or learned at school. To be honest, I don't even remember most of the math I learned at school, and my brain glazes over when kid shows me some of this stuff. I've supported the reading (also taught herself to read though) by keeping up with books, going to the library etc but done very little (nothing I can recall) to support math.
2. I said I didn't keep track of all the tests (ever). I do however have the details of the results I received recently and recall the conversation with kid's teacher about it.
3. I don't think any parents should be envious. I certainly wouldn't be. It's challenging.
4. I literally couldn't be less of a Tiger Mom. Anyone who knows me would laugh at that suggestion!

Your child taught herself square roots and fractions at age 7? Okay, I think we should be having a different discussion. Your child sounds a bit odd. That can be a good thing but it can also be alienating socially. Where is she even getting access to books about this at her age and how does she know exactly where to go in the book at her level?
I cannot fathom a public school teacher having time to do this with a child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is Op's daughter learning this material via osmosis? Or does Op's daughter have an intuitive ability to understand math problems without having to be shown how to do them. Or is someone else teaching Op's child advanced math?

She said at school.

I find that hard to believe. From her initial posts it sounded like her child's teacher wasn't really doing much with OP's talk about wanting to challenge her child and see how she progressed, etc. If her teacher were doing that much enrichment with her child I would think the teacher would have a lot of answers for her and she wouldn't be on an anonymous message board asking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People, the MAP test is adaptive so her child is getting above-grade level content. It's not the same as a child scoring at a "6th grade level" on a fixed 1st grade test.

Now that that's settled what a MAP P score shows is complicated. There are three versions with the MAP-P, the lowest version, only having content going up to a certain grade. The version is used for K-2nd but the content goes slightly higher but not up to 6th.

Teacher here. You are correct that there is a primary version of MAP. Your child is not taking the late elementary or middle grades version. Again, your child scored on the test the same way an 6th grader would, if he were taking the primary version of MAP. I hate when tests give grade level equivalents as this leads to a lot of confusion for parents, and it's not useful information for teachers either. The RIT score itself is much more helpful.

OP is this your child's first time taking MAP? It is important to look at the trend line over time. Often a child will score very high and then receive a lower score the next time, as the questions will start out very difficult due to the prior high score. In my experience the truly gifted children tackle these tough problems and maintain a score in the 99th percentile. These are the children who are in the total replacement math program in my district, and they account for about 5-10% of the class. There are other kids who tend to fluctuate between the 94th and 99th percentile, and those tend to be the classic high achievers or kids who are just doing well in math...bright, not gifted. There are many children like this in my high performing district. There are also kids whose trends are between the 80th and 99th percentiles, and this is pretty rare (maybe 5-10 percent of kids?). From what I have seen kids like this are more likely to hit those high percentiles in the younger grades.

OP, your child is bright. If you want to pursue outside testing, fine. If I were you I would just wait and see what his trend looks like over time. Enrich him at home. Hopefully his teachers are appropriate, engaging math and reading experiences as well.

OP this seems like good information to explain the MAP score- I'm the pp who encouraged you to review the Davidson website and to consider IQ testing of you truly feel your child is unchallenged or are seeing signs of giftedness beyond academic- advanced reasoning, problem solving, and creativity beyond what is expected. The WISC V is what my DS took. It's a good test to measure cognitive abilities and performance- it can provide a lot of valuable information going forward.
These achievement tests are confusing because they can seem to be above grade level tests, or have stifling ceilings for very bright kids (perhaps your DC hit the ceiling?). The only truly above grade level tests are those designed for older kids and taken by younger kids. I mentioned earlier that the ACT is an example- JHU requires the the SCAT for their CTY program. I believe this is an above grade level test.
The Woodcock Johnson and the WIAT is an adaptive test and I don't think there are limits. My son is a bit of a math whiz kid and was tested on some high level material, many years ahead of grade, before he finally topped out in this test. Profoundly gifted programs/schools may use the Woodcock Johnson or WIAT or EXPLORE achievement as one form of admittance eligibility- but they do not use the MAP perhaps because of the ceilings cited by the pp.

Thanks for all the info. I regret confusing things by even referencing the entire grade level ahead issue. Kid did not take the K-2 test. I think it's 2-7? (Teacher decided to use the higher version - I understand there is overlap). I don't think more tests is the answer right now (unless and until she is unhappy or not learning), but there is some useful insight and suggestions on this thread. It's more a concern for the future, middle school in particular, but perhaps things will even out and she will continue to have excellent teachers. Happy to hear that there are so many other kids who can do long multiplication/division of numbers in the millions +, multiply fractions, calculate area, probability, percentages, square root, add, subtract and multiply negative numbers etc. at age 7. Hopefully she'll meet them one day. Thanks.

pp here- I'm sorry the thread turned negative. One thing that we did around 3rd grade for math was engage a private tutor. The tutor helps DS on other aspects of applied math like showing work, explaining thinking, being methodical-- she also works with him on more advanced math and preparing for math competitions. It's been a godsend.
Language arts may be easier to accelerate within the class- more challenging reading material, for example. A lot of people will accuse you of hothousing your child- my opinion (demonstrated by my son again and again) - children do not learn what they are not ready to learn. It's immaterial whether your child was explicitly taught. People believe what makes them most comfortable- an talented athlete who practices is still a talented athlete- a gifted student who does extra is tiger parented and not "really" gifted.

I don't think that's what many people on this thread believe. Many PPs have talked about supplementing and enriching their bright or gifted child's education. I think the disagreement on this thread comes from the fact that OP hasn't provided a lot of evidence to support whether her child is gifted or not.
My child scored much higher than yours on MAP at that age and, guess what, she's totally fine and happy doing grade-level work. We feel lucky she doesn't have a lot of stress bout school work and can spend more time playing in the yard or going over to friends' houses.

[Anonymous]

Op - you should ask your daughter who showed her how to do the math. If she says "no one showed me" then ask her how she figured out how to do the problems. Is she playing on the computer? Or does she just look at the problem and know how to solve it.

[Anonymous]

Wait... are you saying your daughter knows square roots (like the square root of 9 equals 3), or is she calculating irrational numbers by hand (like figuring out the square root of 15)? If it is the former, I don't think you need to do anything. She is pretty normal. If it is the latter, then you might need to be exploring some of these profoundly gifted sites.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wait... are you saying your daughter knows square roots (like the square root of 9 equals 3), or is she calculating irrational numbers by hand (like figuring out the square root of 15)? If it is the former, I don't think you need to do anything. She is pretty normal. If it is the latter, then you might need to be exploring some of these profoundly gifted sites.

She's saying the one that makes her kid really, really smart. Yeah, that one.

[Anonymous]

If you really think your kid is gifted and not just bright and high achieving, do the WISC V. At least that way, you'll have a better perspective as to whether she's doing fine where she is, or whether she needs additional supplementation. Also, from the school's perspective, every parent thinks his/her kid is gifted, so it helps to have some actual proof.

Even if the school doesn't have a formal gifted program, they might have opportunities for your child to receive extensions or do online classes, if the situation warrants it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid took the same test in 2nd, scored higher than yours by quite a bit and is now a 14 yr old rising freshman.

My advice to you is to focus on the other aspects in her life that aren't academic. Find something she doesn't naturally excel in and let her learn to fail and work hard. For my dd that was swim team. So many life lessons learned by doing something that wasn't easy.

I love this. You really get it! I have a gifted friend who never learned to ride a bike. It was hard and she was so used to things coming easily that she gave up when things got difficult.

Stop worrying! You have a bright kid who is also self-directed. Awesome. Now make sure he learns what it is like to struggle and work hard. This will help him stay grounded and humble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid took the same test in 2nd, scored higher than yours by quite a bit and is now a 14 yr old rising freshman.

My advice to you is to focus on the other aspects in her life that aren't academic. Find something she doesn't naturally excel in and let her learn to fail and work hard. For my dd that was swim team. So many life lessons learned by doing something that wasn't easy.

I love this. You really get it! I have a gifted friend who never learned to ride a bike. It was hard and she was so used to things coming easily that she gave up when things got difficult.

Stop worrying! You have a bright kid who is also self-directed. Awesome. Now make sure he learns what it is like to struggle and work hard. This will help him stay grounded and humble.

Sorry to the above poster, but I don't think think you do get it...this kids is far, far more thank just bright and self directed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is this really true for MAP which is an adaptive, above-grade level test?

NP, but I don't think so. However, one should be cautious with the MAP-P results, since the database of adaptive questions in MAP-P covers K-2 curriculum, so even though a student can get a score corresponding to a higher grade, it doesn't necessarily show mastery of the higher grade curriculum. A lot of people report drops for students that score highly on the MAP-P when they switch to MAP-R. Which is not to say that high MAp-P scores are meaningless, just that they should be interpreted with some awareness.

Also, keep in mind that although MAP-P, MAP-R and MAP-M are adaptive, they each have a set number of questions. So, only a limited number of questions is asked in each category, definitely not enough questions to show mastery of the full mathematics or reading curriculum at a specific grade level. The test also changes between 2nd and 3rd grade (MAP-P and MAP-R/M, and again between 5th and 6th grade).

Students start at the level they are "assigned" the first time they take the test, and then on subsequent administrations they start at a level determined based on their previous score. Many students see a leveling off of scores or even a decrease after taking the test a few times because they start at a higher level and are not able to move through as many questions w/o errors.

It is important to note a 240 for a first grader is not completely comparable to a 240 as a 4th grader. The grade level of the student matters as well. Finally, remember that these are national percentiles, for a clearer picture of how your child is performing compared to peers, ask to see the report that shows the national percentile graph along with the school and district graph.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is Op's daughter learning this material via osmosis? Or does Op's daughter have an intuitive ability to understand math problems without having to be shown how to do them. Or is someone else teaching Op's child advanced math?

She said at school.

I find that hard to believe. From her initial posts it sounded like her child's teacher wasn't really doing much with OP's talk about wanting to challenge her child and see how she progressed, etc. If her teacher were doing that much enrichment with her child I would think the teacher would have a lot of answers for her and she wouldn't be on an anonymous message board asking.

Exactly & OP said that her daughter was NOT bored in her every day classes.

How is a child that advanced not bored to tears learning things with children 5 grades behind her?

Unless every child in her class is also a genius & the teacher is teaching them honors middle school classes instead of her the grade appropriate curriculum, how could she NOT bored in her regular, every day classes?

[Anonymous]

My kid is 8 year old and privately tested WISC. V. FSIQ of 146, I think it equates to 99.8 percentile. I applied to Davidson Gifted and they assign you a family councellor to help with some of these questions.
I would recommend get a formal IQ test done, you would know for sure how gifted your kid truly is. There are plenty of great resources mentioned taking classes at CTY, Duke TIP, northwestern university has a similar program. Athena Academy, Online G3, private tutor etc. We supplement, kid doesn't want to skip grade because of social reasons. But I would highly encourage you to consider the possibility.
You would also get access to a community with profoundly gifted kids who have been this path before