American Muslims, why do you support same sex marriage?

[Anonymous]

Great, thanks 16:18. Now I know about Islam's obsession with the Trinity, I still reject Islam for so many other reasons, and so now 16:06 thinks I'm going to hell. Thanks a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, a really long post that repeats your earlier point that Allah forgives people *who believe in him.* The entire passage addresses "what it means to be a believer" and repeats the word *believer* many, many times. How did you miss this? Or did you realize this, but you felt that your argument now called for 1/2 page of obfuscation?

Moreover, this passage really isn't news, and I wonder what you think you're accomplishing here. In every single religion, the Supreme Being(s) rewards those who fall into line with what the Supreme Being(s) wants. There is absolutely nothing special about Islam in this regard.

Moreover, it absolutely begs the question about what happens to non-Muslims ago aren't towing the line by embracing Islam. Your passage in no way addresses this question, because it's directed at and concerns believers exclusively.

So how about addressing Allah's Catch 22 for non-believers:
1. If you've heard of Islam, you must study it, no excuses accepted.
2. If you've studied Islam, then you know the supposed "truth" and if you turn your back on Islam now you face an even worse fate.

You keep waffling between asking about christians and polytheists. Christians, even those who believe in trinity, are believers. Polytheists are not believers. However, Allah does not punish those who have no idea they are committing a sin. The reason I keep repeating this is with the hope that at some point you will understand that. The verses from the Quran were shown. Now to each his own.

Either you are lying or you don't know as much about the Quran as you think you know. The following Quran verse makes it very clear that believing in the trinity means you are not a believer:

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment."

+1. That's pretty clear and unambiguous.

+2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, a really long post that repeats your earlier point that Allah forgives people *who believe in him.* The entire passage addresses "what it means to be a believer" and repeats the word *believer* many, many times. How did you miss this? Or did you realize this, but you felt that your argument now called for 1/2 page of obfuscation?

Moreover, this passage really isn't news, and I wonder what you think you're accomplishing here. In every single religion, the Supreme Being(s) rewards those who fall into line with what the Supreme Being(s) wants. There is absolutely nothing special about Islam in this regard.

Moreover, it absolutely begs the question about what happens to non-Muslims ago aren't towing the line by embracing Islam. Your passage in no way addresses this question, because it's directed at and concerns believers exclusively.

So how about addressing Allah's Catch 22 for non-believers:
1. If you've heard of Islam, you must study it, no excuses accepted.
2. If you've studied Islam, then you know the supposed "truth" and if you turn your back on Islam now you face an even worse fate.

You keep waffling between asking about christians and polytheists. Christians, even those who believe in trinity, are believers. Polytheists are not believers. However, Allah does not punish those who have no idea they are committing a sin. The reason I keep repeating this is with the hope that at some point you will understand that. The verses from the Quran were shown. Now to each his own.

Either you are lying or you don't know as much about the Quran as you think you know. The following Quran verse makes it very clear that believing in the trinity means you are not a believer:

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment."

You are reading the Quran's English translation and without context of what the entire Quran says about disbelievers. Why don't you read it in Quranic Arabic and then tell me the Arabic word used for "disbelievers" in that verse? It is "kafaroo" or "kafarun." Who were the kafarun? What is the definition of a kafir? A kafir isn't someone who doesn't recognize the truth, it's someone who COVERS UP the truth. Regardless of how many people, including Muslims (and there are many wrongly guided Muslims!), who tell you all non-Muslims are kafarun, they are not. A kafir is a person who heard about Islam or the oneness of God and knows it to be the truth, but arrogantly refuses to admit it. An example of a kafir in the Quran is pharaoh during Moses' time. Time after time Moses showed him God's power with various miracles and asked him to release the Israelites. Pharaoh was obstinate, denied God, and refused. He is a perfect example of a kafir. Islam believes the innocent Christian folks today who believe in trinity with no understanding of their wrongdoing, but whose hearts are still filled with love and compassion for mankind, are not the kafarun. The Christians who stood in a circle, safeguarding mosques after 9-11 undoubtedly embraced trinity but they are not kafarun. The Jewish rabbis who even today open up their synagogues to Muslims so that Muslims can pray their Friday prayer (because they don't have a place to pray) are not kafarun.

In Islam the concepts of trinity and the divinity of Jesus are wrong and they were added after Jesus' death. This significantly altered Jesus' message. I apologize if this offends you and if you perceive this as arrogance. This is a historical fact and simply what our holy book says. But those who knew this was wrong yet still persisted in asserting the concepts of trinity and the divinity of Jesus are indeed kafarun or disbelievers. Those who embraced trinity, such as the Christians of today, who don't know this is wrong are not kafarun.

My knowledge is imperfect. If you really want better explanations, you will call an imam or scholar.

[Anonymous]

Your first para seems to say that God, although perfect, delivered a contradictory and internally inconsistent book to his believers. You also need to stop parroting the same points about how people who "unknowingly" reject Islam
will go to Heaven, because several posters have tried to pin down the key word "unknowingly" and why it probably applied to maybe 1% of people, but you seem to have no answers other than to repeat again.

You are correct that Jesus' message is significantly different in the gospels vs the Quran. Jesus in the Gospels explicitly rejects eye-for-eye justice, calls dietary laws silly, and condemns fighting and killing your enemy--all things that are present in the Quran. None of this has anything to do with the trinity, of course. Obsessing over the Trinity is just stupid. People need to decide based on the fundamental values of different religions.

[Anonymous]

^^^ I realize I was unclear.

Jesus' positions are as I described.

The Quran and its Jesus DO call for a return of eye-for-justice, DO reimpose dietary rules, DO call for killing your enemy, DO impose various fami and gender laws, et cetera.

[Anonymous]

^^^ So the Trinity is a pretty insignificant thing to obsess over in the face of these vast differences in the fundamental values of Christianity and Islam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^^ So the Trinity is a pretty insignificant thing to obsess over in the face of these vast differences in the fundamental values of Christianity and Islam.

As a Muslim I am giving you the Islamic perspective. Islam thinks trinity and assigning divinity to a man (albeit a prophet) is a pretty big deal. It isn't "insignificant." It may be to you, however. But you needn't agree with the Muslim perspective.

Whether the "unknowingly" provides a safe haven to only 1% of all Christians is not really relevant in the Quran or in Islam, which is why I don't address it. If it results in only 1% of all Christians being saved, so be it. The Quran simply says those who truly recognize Islam as the truth or know and believe in the oneness of God but still reject it or cover it up are committing a grievous sin.

As for all the other changes made to the Bible, Islam does not believe Jesus made those changes. Islam believes people did.

As for the Quran being "contradictory", it isn't. If it was I would have abandoned it long ago. The more I study it, the more just it shows itself to be.

[Anonymous]

I would add that if you keep relying on the English translation only and refuse to inquire about the Quranic arabic words, you may not fully understand it.

The book was revealed in Arabic. If you truly want to understand it best, ask those who know Quranic Arabic well.

[Anonymous]

One thing I never understood is the djinn and Angels in the Quran, and how these supernatural beings fit in with the idea of the oneness of the divine.

[Anonymous]

What is your question? Are you asking what their purpose is?

[Anonymous]

Djinn and Angels have miraculous powers--on par with divine powers. At least, these are not mortal powers. Same goes gor Satan. So if the Holy Ghost and Jesus' status as God's are problems for you, then help us see the difference.

I guess, when looking to convert Christians, you don't want to lead with arguing over the merits of eye-for-eye justice, separation of church and state, laws re women, divorce, and inheritance, and the treatment of dhimmis (non-believers). Any Christian who is familiar with the gospels may be pretty hard to convince on these points. So you're left with arguing about the Trinity and how your book is infallible, despite internal inconsistencies and records of at least 7 versions, some of which were burned by Othman. Well good luck with that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would add that if you keep relying on the English translation only and refuse to inquire about the Quranic arabic words, you may not fully understand it.

The book was revealed in Arabic. If you truly want to understand it best, ask those who know Quranic Arabic well.

The majority of Muslims don't know Arabic, let alone Quranic Arabic. Arabic speakers are a minority amid Muslims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ So the Trinity is a pretty insignificant thing to obsess over in the face of these vast differences in the fundamental values of Christianity and Islam.

As a Muslim I am giving you the Islamic perspective. Islam thinks trinity and assigning divinity to a man (albeit a prophet) is a pretty big deal. It isn't "insignificant." It may be to you, however. But you needn't agree with the Muslim perspective.

Whether the "unknowingly" provides a safe haven to only 1% of all Christians is not really relevant in the Quran or in Islam, which is why I don't address it. If it results in only 1% of all Christians being saved, so be it. The Quran simply says those who truly recognize Islam as the truth or know and believe in the oneness of God but still reject it or cover it up are committing a grievous sin.

As for all the other changes made to the Bible, Islam does not believe Jesus made those changes. Islam believes people did.

As for the Quran being "contradictory", it isn't. If it was I would have abandoned it long ago. The more I study it, the more just it shows itself to be.

You are dancing around an important truth: that Islam simply doesn't contemplate a possibility that someone may read the Quran and say - nah, doesn't make any sense. Islam presumes that everyone - EVERYONE - who reads the Quran must see its truth. If you read the Quran and reject it, you must be a hypocrite who believes deep inside, but covers up or rejects the "truth" for some unfathomable, highly hypocritical reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ So the Trinity is a pretty insignificant thing to obsess over in the face of these vast differences in the fundamental values of Christianity and Islam.

As a Muslim I am giving you the Islamic perspective. Islam thinks trinity and assigning divinity to a man (albeit a prophet) is a pretty big deal. It isn't "insignificant." It may be to you, however. But you needn't agree with the Muslim perspective.

Whether the "unknowingly" provides a safe haven to only 1% of all Christians is not really relevant in the Quran or in Islam, which is why I don't address it. If it results in only 1% of all Christians being saved, so be it. The Quran simply says those who truly recognize Islam as the truth or know and believe in the oneness of God but still reject it or cover it up are committing a grievous sin.

As for all the other changes made to the Bible, Islam does not believe Jesus made those changes. Islam believes people did.

As for the Quran being "contradictory", it isn't. If it was I would have abandoned it long ago. The more I study it, the more just it shows itself to be.

This says much more about you than about the Quran. I stopped caring after reading "and Jews say Ezra is the son of God." Um no, they don't. I call it a big Quranic whoopsie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You keep waffling between asking about christians and polytheists. Christians, even those who believe in trinity, are believers. Polytheists are not believers. However, Allah does not punish those who have no idea they are committing a sin. The reason I keep repeating this is with the hope that at some point you will understand that. The verses from the Quran were shown. Now to each his own.

Either you are lying or you don't know as much about the Quran as you think you know. The following Quran verse makes it very clear that believing in the trinity means you are not a believer:

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment."

You are reading the Quran's English translation and without context of what the entire Quran says about disbelievers. Why don't you read it in Quranic Arabic and then tell me the Arabic word used for "disbelievers" in that verse? It is "kafaroo" or "kafarun." Who were the kafarun? What is the definition of a kafir? A kafir isn't someone who doesn't recognize the truth, it's someone who COVERS UP the truth. Regardless of how many people, including Muslims (and there are many wrongly guided Muslims!), who tell you all non-Muslims are kafarun, they are not. A kafir is a person who heard about Islam or the oneness of God and knows it to be the truth, but arrogantly refuses to admit it. An example of a kafir in the Quran is pharaoh during Moses' time. Time after time Moses showed him God's power with various miracles and asked him to release the Israelites. Pharaoh was obstinate, denied God, and refused. He is a perfect example of a kafir. Islam believes the innocent Christian folks today who believe in trinity with no understanding of their wrongdoing, but whose hearts are still filled with love and compassion for mankind, are not the kafarun. The Christians who stood in a circle, safeguarding mosques after 9-11 undoubtedly embraced trinity but they are not kafarun. The Jewish rabbis who even today open up their synagogues to Muslims so that Muslims can pray their Friday prayer (because they don't have a place to pray) are not kafarun.

In Islam the concepts of trinity and the divinity of Jesus are wrong and they were added after Jesus' death. This significantly altered Jesus' message. I apologize if this offends you and if you perceive this as arrogance. This is a historical fact and simply what our holy book says. But those who knew this was wrong yet still persisted in asserting the concepts of trinity and the divinity of Jesus are indeed kafarun or disbelievers. Those who embraced trinity, such as the Christians of today, who don't know this is wrong are not kafarun.

My knowledge is imperfect. If you really want better explanations, you will call an imam or scholar.

The concepts of "historical fact" and "what our holy book says" don't even reside in the same universe. Holy books don't deal in historical facts.