The golden age of American Jews is ending

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

Why do you think Hamas rose to power in the first place? Perhaps it's because Israel has a long history of treating Palestinians so well? Please.

They first rose to power in part by opposing the Oslo peace accords through a very successful suicide bombing campaign. Being Jewish, I want to hold right-wing Israeli governments more to account than I do Hamas -- to me, right-wing Israeli governments represent a personal betrayal of ideals they claim they share with me, while I don't believe I share any values with Hamas. But it's equally as ahistorical to absolve Hamas of any wrongdoing as it is to pretend Israel has not brutalized generations of Palestinians.

And of course, no one is absolving Hamas of wrongdoing. They've committed plenty of atrocities and are terrorists. But some Jews simply can't admit to any wrongdoing by the Israeli government and that's just dishonest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:for those who don't see anti-semitism on the right, you might take a look at gab social, an incredibly anti-semitic social media site. it is terrifying.

Not mainstream, though. Conservative Christians are pro-Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

But did Canada ethnically cleanse a land, displace millions, and expel indigenous peoples thereby causing those rockets to be fired? You always skip that part in these comparisons. As if Israel was just an innocent bystander in all of this.

When you try to kill people and steal their land, they usually fight back. Israel is and has always been an oppressor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Current events have me wondering, does the Jewish community in the U.S. consider it antisemitic to not support Israel?

If a gentile disagrees with Israeli foreign policy are they by definition antisemitic?

Something that really struck me about the Atlantic article is that the writer characterizes the belief that Israel should be a bi-national state as anti-Semitic, because of the “naive” belief that Jewish people could survive in such a state. But historically, Jewish communities thrived in the Middle East, as did Christian communities. There’s an argument to be made that colonial meddling in the region was the source of the decline of these communities. I don’t say that as a “naive” person, I say that as a Middle Eastern Christian from one of those shrinking communities.

So the writer is coming from this lens of being a white, Western man. The “golden age” in the American Jewish community the author writes about was not really a golden age except for white people, and Jewish people were reaping some secondary benefits. I grew up in this era as a brown person and there was nothing golden about it. This is an era where a bunch of white guys arrogantly decided to invade a Middle Eastern country without even knowing wtf was going on there. The Atlantic author considers this a turning point in anti-semitism in the US, but I think it was also a turning point in this assumption that elite white men from the US know how to run the entire world. Americans lost their taste for nation building after Iraq and Afghanistan for good reason, and we are losing our taste for interfering in the Israel-Palestine problem for many of the same reasons.

Thank you for reminding everyone that Jews, Christians, Muslims and other sects coexisted quite peacefully in the Middle East until Zionism/Jewish supremacists came along and with the help of the British Empire and now the American empire destroyed that coexistence.

The Muslim "paradise" of religious freedom is pretty idealized. I don't think you can blame all of problems on European colonialism. Despite all of the protests, Islam is a religion of conquest, and those living in those areas are subject to all kinds of pressure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

But did Canada ethnically cleanse a land, displace millions, and expel indigenous peoples thereby causing those rockets to be fired? You always skip that part in these comparisons. As if Israel was just an innocent bystander in all of this.

When you try to kill people and steal their land, they usually fight back. Israel is and has always been an oppressor.

Oh yeah, that’s an accurate, fair and balanced description of how Israel was formed. 🙄 did you just learn everything you know about this conflict from TikTok?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

Why do you think Hamas rose to power in the first place? Perhaps it's because Israel has a long history of treating Palestinians so well? Please.

They first rose to power in part by opposing the Oslo peace accords through a very successful suicide bombing campaign. Being Jewish, I want to hold right-wing Israeli governments more to account than I do Hamas -- to me, right-wing Israeli governments represent a personal betrayal of ideals they claim they share with me, while I don't believe I share any values with Hamas. But it's equally as ahistorical to absolve Hamas of any wrongdoing as it is to pretend Israel has not brutalized generations of Palestinians.

And of course, no one is absolving Hamas of wrongdoing. They've committed plenty of atrocities and are terrorists. But some Jews simply can't admit to any wrongdoing by the Israeli government and that's just dishonest.

I don’t think this is true. Many Jews are critical of the Israeli government, particularly of this government. That does not mean however that we don’t support Israel overall. Just because people might dislike a particular US administration does not necessarily mean that they are anti-American, after all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

Why do you think Hamas rose to power in the first place? Perhaps it's because Israel has a long history of treating Palestinians so well? Please.

They first rose to power in part by opposing the Oslo peace accords through a very successful suicide bombing campaign. Being Jewish, I want to hold right-wing Israeli governments more to account than I do Hamas -- to me, right-wing Israeli governments represent a personal betrayal of ideals they claim they share with me, while I don't believe I share any values with Hamas. But it's equally as ahistorical to absolve Hamas of any wrongdoing as it is to pretend Israel has not brutalized generations of Palestinians.

And of course, no one is absolving Hamas of wrongdoing. They've committed plenty of atrocities and are terrorists. But some Jews simply can't admit to any wrongdoing by the Israeli government and that's just dishonest.

Except that plenty of people ARE absolving Hamas of wrongdoing, or celebrating them as freedom fighters. Or ignoring them because people think the IDF is worse. Which, in turn, contributes to why even Jews who oppose Israeli goverment policies and actions can feel hurt by some of the response to the war.

Much like Netanyahu and Hamas have thrived politically among their own constituencies off of the strength of the other, the refusal of partisans on both sides to acknowledge wrongdoing by their own is making it harder for people to come to the reasonable position that both Israeli Jews and Palestinians live on the same land and neither of them is going anywhere, and no one should be killing civilians no matter what their ethnic or religious backgrounds are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

Why do you think Hamas rose to power in the first place? Perhaps it's because Israel has a long history of treating Palestinians so well? Please.

They first rose to power in part by opposing the Oslo peace accords through a very successful suicide bombing campaign. Being Jewish, I want to hold right-wing Israeli governments more to account than I do Hamas -- to me, right-wing Israeli governments represent a personal betrayal of ideals they claim they share with me, while I don't believe I share any values with Hamas. But it's equally as ahistorical to absolve Hamas of any wrongdoing as it is to pretend Israel has not brutalized generations of Palestinians.

And of course, no one is absolving Hamas of wrongdoing. They've committed plenty of atrocities and are terrorists. But some Jews simply can't admit to any wrongdoing by the Israeli government and that's just dishonest.

I don’t think this is true. Many Jews are critical of the Israeli government, particularly of this government. That does not mean however that we don’t support Israel overall. Just because people might dislike a particular US administration does not necessarily mean that they are anti-American, after all.

I agree with that. I was making a statement more about people on this site/thread who view any criticism of the Israeli government as anti-Semitism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

Why do you think Hamas rose to power in the first place? Perhaps it's because Israel has a long history of treating Palestinians so well? Please.

They first rose to power in part by opposing the Oslo peace accords through a very successful suicide bombing campaign. Being Jewish, I want to hold right-wing Israeli governments more to account than I do Hamas -- to me, right-wing Israeli governments represent a personal betrayal of ideals they claim they share with me, while I don't believe I share any values with Hamas. But it's equally as ahistorical to absolve Hamas of any wrongdoing as it is to pretend Israel has not brutalized generations of Palestinians.

And of course, no one is absolving Hamas of wrongdoing. They've committed plenty of atrocities and are terrorists. But some Jews simply can't admit to any wrongdoing by the Israeli government and that's just dishonest.

I don’t think this is true. Many Jews are critical of the Israeli government, particularly of this government. That does not mean however that we don’t support Israel overall. Just because people might dislike a particular US administration does not necessarily mean that they are anti-American, after all.

I agree with that. I was making a statement more about people on this site/thread who view any criticism of the Israeli government as anti-Semitism.

Do you want to build a strawman?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

Why do you think Hamas rose to power in the first place? Perhaps it's because Israel has a long history of treating Palestinians so well? Please.

They first rose to power in part by opposing the Oslo peace accords through a very successful suicide bombing campaign. Being Jewish, I want to hold right-wing Israeli governments more to account than I do Hamas -- to me, right-wing Israeli governments represent a personal betrayal of ideals they claim they share with me, while I don't believe I share any values with Hamas. But it's equally as ahistorical to absolve Hamas of any wrongdoing as it is to pretend Israel has not brutalized generations of Palestinians.

And of course, no one is absolving Hamas of wrongdoing. They've committed plenty of atrocities and are terrorists. But some Jews simply can't admit to any wrongdoing by the Israeli government and that's just dishonest.

Except that plenty of people ARE absolving Hamas of wrongdoing, or celebrating them as freedom fighters. Or ignoring them because people think the IDF is worse. Which, in turn, contributes to why even Jews who oppose Israeli goverment policies and actions can feel hurt by some of the response to the war.

Much like Netanyahu and Hamas have thrived politically among their own constituencies off of the strength of the other, the refusal of partisans on both sides to acknowledge wrongdoing by their own is making it harder for people to come to the reasonable position that both Israeli Jews and Palestinians live on the same land and neither of them is going anywhere, and no one should be killing civilians no matter what their ethnic or religious backgrounds are.

So then, you support the cease-fire and a two-state solution?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

Why do you think Hamas rose to power in the first place? Perhaps it's because Israel has a long history of treating Palestinians so well? Please.

They first rose to power in part by opposing the Oslo peace accords through a very successful suicide bombing campaign. Being Jewish, I want to hold right-wing Israeli governments more to account than I do Hamas -- to me, right-wing Israeli governments represent a personal betrayal of ideals they claim they share with me, while I don't believe I share any values with Hamas. But it's equally as ahistorical to absolve Hamas of any wrongdoing as it is to pretend Israel has not brutalized generations of Palestinians.

And of course, no one is absolving Hamas of wrongdoing. They've committed plenty of atrocities and are terrorists. But some Jews simply can't admit to any wrongdoing by the Israeli government and that's just dishonest.

I don’t think this is true. Many Jews are critical of the Israeli government, particularly of this government. That does not mean however that we don’t support Israel overall. Just because people might dislike a particular US administration does not necessarily mean that they are anti-American, after all.

I agree with that. I was making a statement more about people on this site/thread who view any criticism of the Israeli government as anti-Semitism.

Do you want to build a strawman?

You just proved my point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

But did Canada ethnically cleanse a land, displace millions, and expel indigenous peoples thereby causing those rockets to be fired? You always skip that part in these comparisons. As if Israel was just an innocent bystander in all of this.

When you try to kill people and steal their land, they usually fight back. Israel is and has always been an oppressor.

Oh yeah, that’s an accurate, fair and balanced description of how Israel was formed. 🙄 did you just learn everything you know about this conflict from TikTok?

It is a pretty apt description. The problem is that most Israel boosters have blinders on and refuse to acknowledge the country's original sin. As if Israel is somehow permitted to conquest an already inhabited land because they are a superior race. It's all BS. So stop with the cries of victimization while conveniently leaving out the part where Israel usurped the land, razed local villages, and continues to create a living hell for Palestinians. All backed, of course, by the UK and US.

[Anonymous]

[youtube]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm no expert in Middle eastern matters or politics in general, but from the outside (am not American, not white and not Middle eastern if that's important) the reason that it may seem like many are supporting Palestine over Israel may be just that one side has SO much more resources, power and $$$$ compared to the other. It's like, imagine if passersby see a 6yo and a 16yo fight at home, both starting skirmishes with the same frequency. Even if they are both to blame for the fights, people are going to be more sympathetic to the 6yo as opposed to the 16yo.

Except that other terrorist organizations aren’t treated with the same kid gloves that Hamas is. I’d love to see the American reaction if Canada rained missiles on us the way Hamas has continually been bombing Israel for years. People would lose their minds. There’s something deeply hypocritical about Americans judging Israel for striking back against behavior that they would never in 1000 years put up with.

Why do you think Hamas rose to power in the first place? Perhaps it's because Israel has a long history of treating Palestinians so well? Please.

They first rose to power in part by opposing the Oslo peace accords through a very successful suicide bombing campaign. Being Jewish, I want to hold right-wing Israeli governments more to account than I do Hamas -- to me, right-wing Israeli governments represent a personal betrayal of ideals they claim they share with me, while I don't believe I share any values with Hamas. But it's equally as ahistorical to absolve Hamas of any wrongdoing as it is to pretend Israel has not brutalized generations of Palestinians.

And of course, no one is absolving Hamas of wrongdoing. They've committed plenty of atrocities and are terrorists. But some Jews simply can't admit to any wrongdoing by the Israeli government and that's just dishonest.

Except that plenty of people ARE absolving Hamas of wrongdoing, or celebrating them as freedom fighters. Or ignoring them because people think the IDF is worse. Which, in turn, contributes to why even Jews who oppose Israeli goverment policies and actions can feel hurt by some of the response to the war.

Much like Netanyahu and Hamas have thrived politically among their own constituencies off of the strength of the other, the refusal of partisans on both sides to acknowledge wrongdoing by their own is making it harder for people to come to the reasonable position that both Israeli Jews and Palestinians live on the same land and neither of them is going anywhere, and no one should be killing civilians no matter what their ethnic or religious backgrounds are.

This might be the only actual good post on this wretched thread.

[jsteele]

Please feel free to join the Gaza war thread in the Political Forum.