Anonymous wrote:I want to see Russian bled dry and right now, our policy and treasure is doing that. I think we're committed at this point and pulling back would only emboldened Putin. How much have we spent? $10+ billion? It's a small price to pay to see one of our biggest adversaries reduced to a third-rate power.
I mean… they’ve always been third rate. But it’s delightful to have it displayed for all the world to see.
A third rate army is sitting on 20% of Ukraine. It's hard to imagine what a second rate army would have been able to do, or, god forbid, a first-rate one!
Well I guess we’ll never know, since Russia really sucks at this.
And that is Ukraine's good luck. Actually, it's Ukraine's super good luck that it was Russia that attacked it. If it was attacked by, say, some obscure Eastern European state like Moldova or Montenegro, all it would get would be some phd types on PBS digging up twelfth century battles and historical details of things no one cares about. Also, this program would have the viewership of maybe twelve people, including family members of these phd types. And if it was, like Niger attacking Chad, well not a single white person would care. But since it is Russia, the country the West decided it will hate because it simply refuses to be led, Ukraine is getting pummeled, yes, but it's also getting tons of sympathy points, and once the war is over, it will get tons of aid. So, there is the silver lining. Just like it was Palestinians' good luck to be oppressed by Israel, and not, say, Yemen. Because Arabs oppressed by other Arabs get bubkes by way of Western attention or sympathy.
WTH. People hate Russia because they've got nukes and they threaten to use them.
And they bomb the daylight out of other countries (Syria, anyone?) Nice white washing.
If you're American, you have no grounds to blame other countries for bombing the daylight out of anything, since America does this with abandon.
Russia still beats us at that by a mile. One doesn't have to think of the US as without fault to realize that Russia is top of the class in that regard.
LOL no it doesn't.
Count American and American-led military invasions in the last 20 years. Now count Russia-led ones. Compare two numbers.
Count the casualties in #1. Now count the casualties in #2. Compare two numbers.
Now, count the number of American military bases around the world. Now, count the Russian ones. Compare two numbers.
This year alone theyve threatened to invade the UK, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria as well.
But why limit it to 20 years. How many years out of the past 200 has Moscovy been peaceful towards their neighbors?
If we’re going back years then England takes the cake.
Colonizer devils that terrorized worldwide.
Maybe but they've at least learned from their past and reformed. Muscovy and its successor states, the USSR and Russia, just double down on the oppression and aggression each time they change.
The list of countries that have started a war of territorial expansion since WW2 is very small. China with Tibet, Iraq with Kuwait, Indonesia with East Timor, and Russia with Ukraine on multiple occassions as well as Moldova, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.
Why are some countries allowed to split into multiple parts and some aren't?
It's up to them, not a third party that wants it for themselves. Russia trying to take over Ukraine and make it Russia is not the same as Ethiopia and Eritrea deciding to go their separate ways.
The only country in the entire world that has engaged in a war of territorial conquest this century is Russia. And they've done it three times.
When Ukraine lashed out at Yanukovich for betraying them regarding joining the EU, they threw him out of office. Yanukovich was of course Putin's guy and that meant Putin was losing his grip on Ukraine. In retaliation, Putin sent thousands of mercenaries and provocateurs into Donbas to stage their fake rebellion and independence referendum.
Well they didn't just throw him out, did they. They had quite a bit of help on that. It was also quite violent, and not at all universally embraced. Specifically, eastern Ukraine hated the idea and didn't want to go along with the changes. They felt the coup was forced down their throat. You're lying if you say this resistance was fake. Eastern Ukraine never had much in common with the Polish-oriented Ukraine.
The new Ukraine could have courted their eastern citizens a bit more instead of taking them for granted.
And that would have prevented Russia from invading? Twice! Lol
Gosh, I hope the 25,000 Russian troops about to be stranded across the Dniper are ok. Lucky for them Ukrainians aren't as into mutilation, murder and gang rape as the Russians.
LOL you poor innocent sweet child. Maybe you should talk to the descendants of Ukraine's Jews, or the victims of Ukraine's national hero Stepan Bandera, or the family members of those burned alive in Odesa during anti-Maidan protests, the tragedy the government refused to investigate or prosecute.
There are no cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians, none. Both are prone to violence, corruption and oppression.
So Bandera's group did pledge allegiance to Hitler's Nazi Germany. Bandera said he wanted ideological and ethnic purity for Ukraine. The Germans ultimately turned against Bandera and arrested him.
Bandera's Order of Ukrainian Nationalists also did some violent things in pursuit of sovereignty. Jews and Polish people were massacred.
"The fight was violent. It was killing, gruesome killings, against all the perceived enemies," says political scientist Gulnaz Sharafutdinova of King's College London. "There were strong powers around that little part of Ukraine, western Ukraine, so it was a really hard fight."
Many of these details have only come out recently, since the KGB, the CIA and others have declassified records. The question is whether a person who's involved in the death of tens of thousands of people can also be a political hero.
"Heroes are written in the aftermath and retrospectively, and a lot of the inconvenient facts are usually written off," says Sharafutdinova. "History is written by the winners, right?"
In 2010, Ukraine's government officially recognized Bandera as a national hero, a move that was condemned by the European Parliament among others. The next year, a new government annulled that award after a domestic and international outcry.
Hahaha, still trying to push the nazi thing. You're hilarious. Three words: Pale of Settlement
Before it became verboten to criticize the Azov group and Ukraine, its neonazi problem was covered widely in mainstream, totally establishment American sources.
The first link I clicked on, the BBC article, says this is a false premise. And it didn't even take me 5 minutes to see it.
It says:
"Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.
This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold."
Well let's continue reading, shall we:
But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.
As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.
...Nevertheless, the fact is, neo-Nazis are indeed a fixture in Ukraine's new political landscape, albeit in small numbers.
Azov Battalion
As Mr Korotkykh's case demonstrates, the ultra-nationalists have proven to be effective and dedicated fighters in the brutal war in the east against Russian-backed separatists and Russian forces, whose numbers also include a large contingent from Russia's far right.
As a result, they have achieved a level of acceptance, even though most Ukrainians are unfamiliar with their actual beliefs.
The volunteer Azov Battalion is a case in point.
Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia: a modified Wolf's Hook, a black sun (or "Hakensonne") and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.
Azov is just one of more than 50 volunteer groups fighting in the east, the vast majority of which are not extremist, yet it seems to enjoy special backing from some top officials:
Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and his deputy Anton Gerashchenko actively supported the parliament candidacy of Andriy Biletsky, the Azov and Patriot of Ukraine commander
Vadim Troyan, another top Azov official and Patriot of Ukraine member, was recently named police chief for the Kiev region
Mr Korotkykh is also an Azov member
Ukraine's media have been noticeably silent on this subject.
Recently, prominent newspaper and online publication Left Bank published an extensive interview with Mr Troyan, in which the journalists asked no questions at all about his neo-Nazi past or political views.
___
Let's address an oft-repeated nonsense I see that "the far right and nazi groups in Ukraine are a tiny minority with 0.00000001% parliamentary votes".
Stop this stupidity. It's not about who has how many seats in the parliament. It's who has guns on the streets and is willing to use them. And prior to the war, the far right/neonazi groups have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they are well armed and perfectly willing to use these weapons. They use your parliamentary seats for toilet paper so stop bringing this up.
Well, shoot, I guess Russia should invade America, cuz we have more neo azis than Ukraine. Which you'd probably embrace.
And they are working together, aren't they? I don't suppose you saw a DHS memo that expressed concerns about American far right groups traveling to fight in Ukraine and then returning home with nasty tricks they learned there?
That's an American problem that has nothing to do with Ukraine. That you posit it as such makes you look like Putin's lap dog.
Anonymous wrote:I want to see Russian bled dry and right now, our policy and treasure is doing that. I think we're committed at this point and pulling back would only emboldened Putin. How much have we spent? $10+ billion? It's a small price to pay to see one of our biggest adversaries reduced to a third-rate power.
I mean… they’ve always been third rate. But it’s delightful to have it displayed for all the world to see.
A third rate army is sitting on 20% of Ukraine. It's hard to imagine what a second rate army would have been able to do, or, god forbid, a first-rate one!
Well I guess we’ll never know, since Russia really sucks at this.
And that is Ukraine's good luck. Actually, it's Ukraine's super good luck that it was Russia that attacked it. If it was attacked by, say, some obscure Eastern European state like Moldova or Montenegro, all it would get would be some phd types on PBS digging up twelfth century battles and historical details of things no one cares about. Also, this program would have the viewership of maybe twelve people, including family members of these phd types. And if it was, like Niger attacking Chad, well not a single white person would care. But since it is Russia, the country the West decided it will hate because it simply refuses to be led, Ukraine is getting pummeled, yes, but it's also getting tons of sympathy points, and once the war is over, it will get tons of aid. So, there is the silver lining. Just like it was Palestinians' good luck to be oppressed by Israel, and not, say, Yemen. Because Arabs oppressed by other Arabs get bubkes by way of Western attention or sympathy.
WTH. People hate Russia because they've got nukes and they threaten to use them.
And they bomb the daylight out of other countries (Syria, anyone?) Nice white washing.
If you're American, you have no grounds to blame other countries for bombing the daylight out of anything, since America does this with abandon.
Russia still beats us at that by a mile. One doesn't have to think of the US as without fault to realize that Russia is top of the class in that regard.
LOL no it doesn't.
Count American and American-led military invasions in the last 20 years. Now count Russia-led ones. Compare two numbers.
Count the casualties in #1. Now count the casualties in #2. Compare two numbers.
Now, count the number of American military bases around the world. Now, count the Russian ones. Compare two numbers.
This year alone theyve threatened to invade the UK, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria as well.
But why limit it to 20 years. How many years out of the past 200 has Moscovy been peaceful towards their neighbors?
If we’re going back years then England takes the cake.
Colonizer devils that terrorized worldwide.
Maybe but they've at least learned from their past and reformed. Muscovy and its successor states, the USSR and Russia, just double down on the oppression and aggression each time they change.
The list of countries that have started a war of territorial expansion since WW2 is very small. China with Tibet, Iraq with Kuwait, Indonesia with East Timor, and Russia with Ukraine on multiple occassions as well as Moldova, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.
Why are some countries allowed to split into multiple parts and some aren't?
It's up to them, not a third party that wants it for themselves. Russia trying to take over Ukraine and make it Russia is not the same as Ethiopia and Eritrea deciding to go their separate ways.
The only country in the entire world that has engaged in a war of territorial conquest this century is Russia. And they've done it three times.
When Ukraine lashed out at Yanukovich for betraying them regarding joining the EU, they threw him out of office. Yanukovich was of course Putin's guy and that meant Putin was losing his grip on Ukraine. In retaliation, Putin sent thousands of mercenaries and provocateurs into Donbas to stage their fake rebellion and independence referendum.
Well they didn't just throw him out, did they. They had quite a bit of help on that. It was also quite violent, and not at all universally embraced. Specifically, eastern Ukraine hated the idea and didn't want to go along with the changes. They felt the coup was forced down their throat. You're lying if you say this resistance was fake. Eastern Ukraine never had much in common with the Polish-oriented Ukraine.
The new Ukraine could have courted their eastern citizens a bit more instead of taking them for granted.
And that would have prevented Russia from invading? Twice! Lol
Gosh, I hope the 25,000 Russian troops about to be stranded across the Dniper are ok. Lucky for them Ukrainians aren't as into mutilation, murder and gang rape as the Russians.
LOL you poor innocent sweet child. Maybe you should talk to the descendants of Ukraine's Jews, or the victims of Ukraine's national hero Stepan Bandera, or the family members of those burned alive in Odesa during anti-Maidan protests, the tragedy the government refused to investigate or prosecute.
There are no cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians, none. Both are prone to violence, corruption and oppression.
So Bandera's group did pledge allegiance to Hitler's Nazi Germany. Bandera said he wanted ideological and ethnic purity for Ukraine. The Germans ultimately turned against Bandera and arrested him.
Bandera's Order of Ukrainian Nationalists also did some violent things in pursuit of sovereignty. Jews and Polish people were massacred.
"The fight was violent. It was killing, gruesome killings, against all the perceived enemies," says political scientist Gulnaz Sharafutdinova of King's College London. "There were strong powers around that little part of Ukraine, western Ukraine, so it was a really hard fight."
Many of these details have only come out recently, since the KGB, the CIA and others have declassified records. The question is whether a person who's involved in the death of tens of thousands of people can also be a political hero.
"Heroes are written in the aftermath and retrospectively, and a lot of the inconvenient facts are usually written off," says Sharafutdinova. "History is written by the winners, right?"
In 2010, Ukraine's government officially recognized Bandera as a national hero, a move that was condemned by the European Parliament among others. The next year, a new government annulled that award after a domestic and international outcry.
Hahaha, still trying to push the nazi thing. You're hilarious. Three words: Pale of Settlement
Before it became verboten to criticize the Azov group and Ukraine, its neonazi problem was covered widely in mainstream, totally establishment American sources.
The first link I clicked on, the BBC article, says this is a false premise. And it didn't even take me 5 minutes to see it.
It says:
"Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.
This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold."
Well let's continue reading, shall we:
But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.
As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.
...Nevertheless, the fact is, neo-Nazis are indeed a fixture in Ukraine's new political landscape, albeit in small numbers.
Azov Battalion
As Mr Korotkykh's case demonstrates, the ultra-nationalists have proven to be effective and dedicated fighters in the brutal war in the east against Russian-backed separatists and Russian forces, whose numbers also include a large contingent from Russia's far right.
As a result, they have achieved a level of acceptance, even though most Ukrainians are unfamiliar with their actual beliefs.
The volunteer Azov Battalion is a case in point.
Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia: a modified Wolf's Hook, a black sun (or "Hakensonne") and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.
Azov is just one of more than 50 volunteer groups fighting in the east, the vast majority of which are not extremist, yet it seems to enjoy special backing from some top officials:
Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and his deputy Anton Gerashchenko actively supported the parliament candidacy of Andriy Biletsky, the Azov and Patriot of Ukraine commander
Vadim Troyan, another top Azov official and Patriot of Ukraine member, was recently named police chief for the Kiev region
Mr Korotkykh is also an Azov member
Ukraine's media have been noticeably silent on this subject.
Recently, prominent newspaper and online publication Left Bank published an extensive interview with Mr Troyan, in which the journalists asked no questions at all about his neo-Nazi past or political views.
___
Let's address an oft-repeated nonsense I see that "the far right and nazi groups in Ukraine are a tiny minority with 0.00000001% parliamentary votes".
Stop this stupidity. It's not about who has how many seats in the parliament. It's who has guns on the streets and is willing to use them. And prior to the war, the far right/neonazi groups have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they are well armed and perfectly willing to use these weapons. They use your parliamentary seats for toilet paper so stop bringing this up.
Well, shoot, I guess Russia should invade America, cuz we have more neo azis than Ukraine. Which you'd probably embrace.
And they are working together, aren't they? I don't suppose you saw a DHS memo that expressed concerns about American far right groups traveling to fight in Ukraine and then returning home with nasty tricks they learned there?
That's an American problem that has nothing to do with Ukraine. That you posit it as such makes you look like Putin's lap dog.
LOL tell DHS don't tell me. It's not like they went off to the Maldives did they.
Anonymous wrote:I want to see Russian bled dry and right now, our policy and treasure is doing that. I think we're committed at this point and pulling back would only emboldened Putin. How much have we spent? $10+ billion? It's a small price to pay to see one of our biggest adversaries reduced to a third-rate power.
I mean… they’ve always been third rate. But it’s delightful to have it displayed for all the world to see.
A third rate army is sitting on 20% of Ukraine. It's hard to imagine what a second rate army would have been able to do, or, god forbid, a first-rate one!
Well I guess we’ll never know, since Russia really sucks at this.
And that is Ukraine's good luck. Actually, it's Ukraine's super good luck that it was Russia that attacked it. If it was attacked by, say, some obscure Eastern European state like Moldova or Montenegro, all it would get would be some phd types on PBS digging up twelfth century battles and historical details of things no one cares about. Also, this program would have the viewership of maybe twelve people, including family members of these phd types. And if it was, like Niger attacking Chad, well not a single white person would care. But since it is Russia, the country the West decided it will hate because it simply refuses to be led, Ukraine is getting pummeled, yes, but it's also getting tons of sympathy points, and once the war is over, it will get tons of aid. So, there is the silver lining. Just like it was Palestinians' good luck to be oppressed by Israel, and not, say, Yemen. Because Arabs oppressed by other Arabs get bubkes by way of Western attention or sympathy.
WTH. People hate Russia because they've got nukes and they threaten to use them.
And they bomb the daylight out of other countries (Syria, anyone?) Nice white washing.
If you're American, you have no grounds to blame other countries for bombing the daylight out of anything, since America does this with abandon.
Russia still beats us at that by a mile. One doesn't have to think of the US as without fault to realize that Russia is top of the class in that regard.
LOL no it doesn't.
Count American and American-led military invasions in the last 20 years. Now count Russia-led ones. Compare two numbers.
Count the casualties in #1. Now count the casualties in #2. Compare two numbers.
Now, count the number of American military bases around the world. Now, count the Russian ones. Compare two numbers.
This year alone theyve threatened to invade the UK, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria as well.
But why limit it to 20 years. How many years out of the past 200 has Moscovy been peaceful towards their neighbors?
If we’re going back years then England takes the cake.
Colonizer devils that terrorized worldwide.
Maybe but they've at least learned from their past and reformed. Muscovy and its successor states, the USSR and Russia, just double down on the oppression and aggression each time they change.
The list of countries that have started a war of territorial expansion since WW2 is very small. China with Tibet, Iraq with Kuwait, Indonesia with East Timor, and Russia with Ukraine on multiple occassions as well as Moldova, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.
Why are some countries allowed to split into multiple parts and some aren't?
It's up to them, not a third party that wants it for themselves. Russia trying to take over Ukraine and make it Russia is not the same as Ethiopia and Eritrea deciding to go their separate ways.
The only country in the entire world that has engaged in a war of territorial conquest this century is Russia. And they've done it three times.
When Ukraine lashed out at Yanukovich for betraying them regarding joining the EU, they threw him out of office. Yanukovich was of course Putin's guy and that meant Putin was losing his grip on Ukraine. In retaliation, Putin sent thousands of mercenaries and provocateurs into Donbas to stage their fake rebellion and independence referendum.
Well they didn't just throw him out, did they. They had quite a bit of help on that. It was also quite violent, and not at all universally embraced. Specifically, eastern Ukraine hated the idea and didn't want to go along with the changes. They felt the coup was forced down their throat. You're lying if you say this resistance was fake. Eastern Ukraine never had much in common with the Polish-oriented Ukraine.
The new Ukraine could have courted their eastern citizens a bit more instead of taking them for granted.
And that would have prevented Russia from invading? Twice! Lol
Gosh, I hope the 25,000 Russian troops about to be stranded across the Dniper are ok. Lucky for them Ukrainians aren't as into mutilation, murder and gang rape as the Russians.
LOL you poor innocent sweet child. Maybe you should talk to the descendants of Ukraine's Jews, or the victims of Ukraine's national hero Stepan Bandera, or the family members of those burned alive in Odesa during anti-Maidan protests, the tragedy the government refused to investigate or prosecute.
There are no cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians, none. Both are prone to violence, corruption and oppression.
So Bandera's group did pledge allegiance to Hitler's Nazi Germany. Bandera said he wanted ideological and ethnic purity for Ukraine. The Germans ultimately turned against Bandera and arrested him.
Bandera's Order of Ukrainian Nationalists also did some violent things in pursuit of sovereignty. Jews and Polish people were massacred.
"The fight was violent. It was killing, gruesome killings, against all the perceived enemies," says political scientist Gulnaz Sharafutdinova of King's College London. "There were strong powers around that little part of Ukraine, western Ukraine, so it was a really hard fight."
Many of these details have only come out recently, since the KGB, the CIA and others have declassified records. The question is whether a person who's involved in the death of tens of thousands of people can also be a political hero.
"Heroes are written in the aftermath and retrospectively, and a lot of the inconvenient facts are usually written off," says Sharafutdinova. "History is written by the winners, right?"
In 2010, Ukraine's government officially recognized Bandera as a national hero, a move that was condemned by the European Parliament among others. The next year, a new government annulled that award after a domestic and international outcry.
Hahaha, still trying to push the nazi thing. You're hilarious. Three words: Pale of Settlement
Before it became verboten to criticize the Azov group and Ukraine, its neonazi problem was covered widely in mainstream, totally establishment American sources.
The first link I clicked on, the BBC article, says this is a false premise. And it didn't even take me 5 minutes to see it.
It says:
"Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.
This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold."
Well let's continue reading, shall we:
But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.
As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.
...Nevertheless, the fact is, neo-Nazis are indeed a fixture in Ukraine's new political landscape, albeit in small numbers.
Azov Battalion
As Mr Korotkykh's case demonstrates, the ultra-nationalists have proven to be effective and dedicated fighters in the brutal war in the east against Russian-backed separatists and Russian forces, whose numbers also include a large contingent from Russia's far right.
As a result, they have achieved a level of acceptance, even though most Ukrainians are unfamiliar with their actual beliefs.
The volunteer Azov Battalion is a case in point.
Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia: a modified Wolf's Hook, a black sun (or "Hakensonne") and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.
Azov is just one of more than 50 volunteer groups fighting in the east, the vast majority of which are not extremist, yet it seems to enjoy special backing from some top officials:
Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and his deputy Anton Gerashchenko actively supported the parliament candidacy of Andriy Biletsky, the Azov and Patriot of Ukraine commander
Vadim Troyan, another top Azov official and Patriot of Ukraine member, was recently named police chief for the Kiev region
Mr Korotkykh is also an Azov member
Ukraine's media have been noticeably silent on this subject.
Recently, prominent newspaper and online publication Left Bank published an extensive interview with Mr Troyan, in which the journalists asked no questions at all about his neo-Nazi past or political views.
___
Let's address an oft-repeated nonsense I see that "the far right and nazi groups in Ukraine are a tiny minority with 0.00000001% parliamentary votes".
Stop this stupidity. It's not about who has how many seats in the parliament. It's who has guns on the streets and is willing to use them. And prior to the war, the far right/neonazi groups have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they are well armed and perfectly willing to use these weapons. They use your parliamentary seats for toilet paper so stop bringing this up.
Well, shoot, I guess Russia should invade America, cuz we have more neo azis than Ukraine. Which you'd probably embrace.
And they are working together, aren't they? I don't suppose you saw a DHS memo that expressed concerns about American far right groups traveling to fight in Ukraine and then returning home with nasty tricks they learned there?
That's an American problem that has nothing to do with Ukraine. That you posit it as such makes you look like Putin's lap dog.
LOL tell DHS don't tell me. It's not like they went off to the Maldives did they.
Why would I tell DHS? They'd just agree. It doesn't mean Ukraine has a neonazi problem any worse than the U.S. does, or Russia does.
Anonymous wrote:I want to see Russian bled dry and right now, our policy and treasure is doing that. I think we're committed at this point and pulling back would only emboldened Putin. How much have we spent? $10+ billion? It's a small price to pay to see one of our biggest adversaries reduced to a third-rate power.
I mean… they’ve always been third rate. But it’s delightful to have it displayed for all the world to see.
A third rate army is sitting on 20% of Ukraine. It's hard to imagine what a second rate army would have been able to do, or, god forbid, a first-rate one!
Well I guess we’ll never know, since Russia really sucks at this.
And that is Ukraine's good luck. Actually, it's Ukraine's super good luck that it was Russia that attacked it. If it was attacked by, say, some obscure Eastern European state like Moldova or Montenegro, all it would get would be some phd types on PBS digging up twelfth century battles and historical details of things no one cares about. Also, this program would have the viewership of maybe twelve people, including family members of these phd types. And if it was, like Niger attacking Chad, well not a single white person would care. But since it is Russia, the country the West decided it will hate because it simply refuses to be led, Ukraine is getting pummeled, yes, but it's also getting tons of sympathy points, and once the war is over, it will get tons of aid. So, there is the silver lining. Just like it was Palestinians' good luck to be oppressed by Israel, and not, say, Yemen. Because Arabs oppressed by other Arabs get bubkes by way of Western attention or sympathy.
WTH. People hate Russia because they've got nukes and they threaten to use them.
And they bomb the daylight out of other countries (Syria, anyone?) Nice white washing.
If you're American, you have no grounds to blame other countries for bombing the daylight out of anything, since America does this with abandon.
Russia still beats us at that by a mile. One doesn't have to think of the US as without fault to realize that Russia is top of the class in that regard.
LOL no it doesn't.
Count American and American-led military invasions in the last 20 years. Now count Russia-led ones. Compare two numbers.
Count the casualties in #1. Now count the casualties in #2. Compare two numbers.
Now, count the number of American military bases around the world. Now, count the Russian ones. Compare two numbers.
This year alone theyve threatened to invade the UK, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria as well.
But why limit it to 20 years. How many years out of the past 200 has Moscovy been peaceful towards their neighbors?
If we’re going back years then England takes the cake.
Colonizer devils that terrorized worldwide.
Maybe but they've at least learned from their past and reformed. Muscovy and its successor states, the USSR and Russia, just double down on the oppression and aggression each time they change.
The list of countries that have started a war of territorial expansion since WW2 is very small. China with Tibet, Iraq with Kuwait, Indonesia with East Timor, and Russia with Ukraine on multiple occassions as well as Moldova, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.
Why are some countries allowed to split into multiple parts and some aren't?
It's up to them, not a third party that wants it for themselves. Russia trying to take over Ukraine and make it Russia is not the same as Ethiopia and Eritrea deciding to go their separate ways.
The only country in the entire world that has engaged in a war of territorial conquest this century is Russia. And they've done it three times.
When Ukraine lashed out at Yanukovich for betraying them regarding joining the EU, they threw him out of office. Yanukovich was of course Putin's guy and that meant Putin was losing his grip on Ukraine. In retaliation, Putin sent thousands of mercenaries and provocateurs into Donbas to stage their fake rebellion and independence referendum.
Well they didn't just throw him out, did they. They had quite a bit of help on that. It was also quite violent, and not at all universally embraced. Specifically, eastern Ukraine hated the idea and didn't want to go along with the changes. They felt the coup was forced down their throat. You're lying if you say this resistance was fake. Eastern Ukraine never had much in common with the Polish-oriented Ukraine.
The new Ukraine could have courted their eastern citizens a bit more instead of taking them for granted.
And that would have prevented Russia from invading? Twice! Lol
Gosh, I hope the 25,000 Russian troops about to be stranded across the Dniper are ok. Lucky for them Ukrainians aren't as into mutilation, murder and gang rape as the Russians.
LOL you poor innocent sweet child. Maybe you should talk to the descendants of Ukraine's Jews, or the victims of Ukraine's national hero Stepan Bandera, or the family members of those burned alive in Odesa during anti-Maidan protests, the tragedy the government refused to investigate or prosecute.
There are no cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians, none. Both are prone to violence, corruption and oppression.
So Bandera's group did pledge allegiance to Hitler's Nazi Germany. Bandera said he wanted ideological and ethnic purity for Ukraine. The Germans ultimately turned against Bandera and arrested him.
Bandera's Order of Ukrainian Nationalists also did some violent things in pursuit of sovereignty. Jews and Polish people were massacred.
"The fight was violent. It was killing, gruesome killings, against all the perceived enemies," says political scientist Gulnaz Sharafutdinova of King's College London. "There were strong powers around that little part of Ukraine, western Ukraine, so it was a really hard fight."
Many of these details have only come out recently, since the KGB, the CIA and others have declassified records. The question is whether a person who's involved in the death of tens of thousands of people can also be a political hero.
"Heroes are written in the aftermath and retrospectively, and a lot of the inconvenient facts are usually written off," says Sharafutdinova. "History is written by the winners, right?"
In 2010, Ukraine's government officially recognized Bandera as a national hero, a move that was condemned by the European Parliament among others. The next year, a new government annulled that award after a domestic and international outcry.
Hahaha, still trying to push the nazi thing. You're hilarious. Three words: Pale of Settlement
Before it became verboten to criticize the Azov group and Ukraine, its neonazi problem was covered widely in mainstream, totally establishment American sources.
The first link I clicked on, the BBC article, says this is a false premise. And it didn't even take me 5 minutes to see it.
It says:
"Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.
This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold."
Well let's continue reading, shall we:
But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.
As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.
...Nevertheless, the fact is, neo-Nazis are indeed a fixture in Ukraine's new political landscape, albeit in small numbers.
Azov Battalion
As Mr Korotkykh's case demonstrates, the ultra-nationalists have proven to be effective and dedicated fighters in the brutal war in the east against Russian-backed separatists and Russian forces, whose numbers also include a large contingent from Russia's far right.
As a result, they have achieved a level of acceptance, even though most Ukrainians are unfamiliar with their actual beliefs.
The volunteer Azov Battalion is a case in point.
Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia: a modified Wolf's Hook, a black sun (or "Hakensonne") and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.
Azov is just one of more than 50 volunteer groups fighting in the east, the vast majority of which are not extremist, yet it seems to enjoy special backing from some top officials:
Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and his deputy Anton Gerashchenko actively supported the parliament candidacy of Andriy Biletsky, the Azov and Patriot of Ukraine commander
Vadim Troyan, another top Azov official and Patriot of Ukraine member, was recently named police chief for the Kiev region
Mr Korotkykh is also an Azov member
Ukraine's media have been noticeably silent on this subject.
Recently, prominent newspaper and online publication Left Bank published an extensive interview with Mr Troyan, in which the journalists asked no questions at all about his neo-Nazi past or political views.
___
Let's address an oft-repeated nonsense I see that "the far right and nazi groups in Ukraine are a tiny minority with 0.00000001% parliamentary votes".
Stop this stupidity. It's not about who has how many seats in the parliament. It's who has guns on the streets and is willing to use them. And prior to the war, the far right/neonazi groups have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they are well armed and perfectly willing to use these weapons. They use your parliamentary seats for toilet paper so stop bringing this up.
Well, shoot, I guess Russia should invade America, cuz we have more neo azis than Ukraine. Which you'd probably embrace.
And they are working together, aren't they? I don't suppose you saw a DHS memo that expressed concerns about American far right groups traveling to fight in Ukraine and then returning home with nasty tricks they learned there?
That's an American problem that has nothing to do with Ukraine. That you posit it as such makes you look like Putin's lap dog.
LOL tell DHS don't tell me. It's not like they went off to the Maldives did they.
Why would I tell DHS? They'd just agree. It doesn't mean Ukraine has a neonazi problem any worse than the U.S. does, or Russia does.
Does the US have neonazi military units absorbed into its regular armed forces?
Does the US glorify nazi collaborators as national heroes?
Anonymous wrote:I want to see Russian bled dry and right now, our policy and treasure is doing that. I think we're committed at this point and pulling back would only emboldened Putin. How much have we spent? $10+ billion? It's a small price to pay to see one of our biggest adversaries reduced to a third-rate power.
I mean… they’ve always been third rate. But it’s delightful to have it displayed for all the world to see.
A third rate army is sitting on 20% of Ukraine. It's hard to imagine what a second rate army would have been able to do, or, god forbid, a first-rate one!
Well I guess we’ll never know, since Russia really sucks at this.
And that is Ukraine's good luck. Actually, it's Ukraine's super good luck that it was Russia that attacked it. If it was attacked by, say, some obscure Eastern European state like Moldova or Montenegro, all it would get would be some phd types on PBS digging up twelfth century battles and historical details of things no one cares about. Also, this program would have the viewership of maybe twelve people, including family members of these phd types. And if it was, like Niger attacking Chad, well not a single white person would care. But since it is Russia, the country the West decided it will hate because it simply refuses to be led, Ukraine is getting pummeled, yes, but it's also getting tons of sympathy points, and once the war is over, it will get tons of aid. So, there is the silver lining. Just like it was Palestinians' good luck to be oppressed by Israel, and not, say, Yemen. Because Arabs oppressed by other Arabs get bubkes by way of Western attention or sympathy.
WTH. People hate Russia because they've got nukes and they threaten to use them.
And they bomb the daylight out of other countries (Syria, anyone?) Nice white washing.
If you're American, you have no grounds to blame other countries for bombing the daylight out of anything, since America does this with abandon.
Russia still beats us at that by a mile. One doesn't have to think of the US as without fault to realize that Russia is top of the class in that regard.
LOL no it doesn't.
Count American and American-led military invasions in the last 20 years. Now count Russia-led ones. Compare two numbers.
Count the casualties in #1. Now count the casualties in #2. Compare two numbers.
Now, count the number of American military bases around the world. Now, count the Russian ones. Compare two numbers.
This year alone theyve threatened to invade the UK, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria as well.
But why limit it to 20 years. How many years out of the past 200 has Moscovy been peaceful towards their neighbors?
If we’re going back years then England takes the cake.
Colonizer devils that terrorized worldwide.
Maybe but they've at least learned from their past and reformed. Muscovy and its successor states, the USSR and Russia, just double down on the oppression and aggression each time they change.
The list of countries that have started a war of territorial expansion since WW2 is very small. China with Tibet, Iraq with Kuwait, Indonesia with East Timor, and Russia with Ukraine on multiple occassions as well as Moldova, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.
Why are some countries allowed to split into multiple parts and some aren't?
It's up to them, not a third party that wants it for themselves. Russia trying to take over Ukraine and make it Russia is not the same as Ethiopia and Eritrea deciding to go their separate ways.
The only country in the entire world that has engaged in a war of territorial conquest this century is Russia. And they've done it three times.
When Ukraine lashed out at Yanukovich for betraying them regarding joining the EU, they threw him out of office. Yanukovich was of course Putin's guy and that meant Putin was losing his grip on Ukraine. In retaliation, Putin sent thousands of mercenaries and provocateurs into Donbas to stage their fake rebellion and independence referendum.
Well they didn't just throw him out, did they. They had quite a bit of help on that. It was also quite violent, and not at all universally embraced. Specifically, eastern Ukraine hated the idea and didn't want to go along with the changes. They felt the coup was forced down their throat. You're lying if you say this resistance was fake. Eastern Ukraine never had much in common with the Polish-oriented Ukraine.
The new Ukraine could have courted their eastern citizens a bit more instead of taking them for granted.
And that would have prevented Russia from invading? Twice! Lol
Gosh, I hope the 25,000 Russian troops about to be stranded across the Dniper are ok. Lucky for them Ukrainians aren't as into mutilation, murder and gang rape as the Russians.
LOL you poor innocent sweet child. Maybe you should talk to the descendants of Ukraine's Jews, or the victims of Ukraine's national hero Stepan Bandera, or the family members of those burned alive in Odesa during anti-Maidan protests, the tragedy the government refused to investigate or prosecute.
There are no cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians, none. Both are prone to violence, corruption and oppression.
So Bandera's group did pledge allegiance to Hitler's Nazi Germany. Bandera said he wanted ideological and ethnic purity for Ukraine. The Germans ultimately turned against Bandera and arrested him.
Bandera's Order of Ukrainian Nationalists also did some violent things in pursuit of sovereignty. Jews and Polish people were massacred.
"The fight was violent. It was killing, gruesome killings, against all the perceived enemies," says political scientist Gulnaz Sharafutdinova of King's College London. "There were strong powers around that little part of Ukraine, western Ukraine, so it was a really hard fight."
Many of these details have only come out recently, since the KGB, the CIA and others have declassified records. The question is whether a person who's involved in the death of tens of thousands of people can also be a political hero.
"Heroes are written in the aftermath and retrospectively, and a lot of the inconvenient facts are usually written off," says Sharafutdinova. "History is written by the winners, right?"
In 2010, Ukraine's government officially recognized Bandera as a national hero, a move that was condemned by the European Parliament among others. The next year, a new government annulled that award after a domestic and international outcry.
Hahaha, still trying to push the nazi thing. You're hilarious. Three words: Pale of Settlement
Before it became verboten to criticize the Azov group and Ukraine, its neonazi problem was covered widely in mainstream, totally establishment American sources.
The first link I clicked on, the BBC article, says this is a false premise. And it didn't even take me 5 minutes to see it.
It says:
"Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.
This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold."
Well let's continue reading, shall we:
But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.
As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.
...Nevertheless, the fact is, neo-Nazis are indeed a fixture in Ukraine's new political landscape, albeit in small numbers.
Azov Battalion
As Mr Korotkykh's case demonstrates, the ultra-nationalists have proven to be effective and dedicated fighters in the brutal war in the east against Russian-backed separatists and Russian forces, whose numbers also include a large contingent from Russia's far right.
As a result, they have achieved a level of acceptance, even though most Ukrainians are unfamiliar with their actual beliefs.
The volunteer Azov Battalion is a case in point.
Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia: a modified Wolf's Hook, a black sun (or "Hakensonne") and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.
Azov is just one of more than 50 volunteer groups fighting in the east, the vast majority of which are not extremist, yet it seems to enjoy special backing from some top officials:
Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and his deputy Anton Gerashchenko actively supported the parliament candidacy of Andriy Biletsky, the Azov and Patriot of Ukraine commander
Vadim Troyan, another top Azov official and Patriot of Ukraine member, was recently named police chief for the Kiev region
Mr Korotkykh is also an Azov member
Ukraine's media have been noticeably silent on this subject.
Recently, prominent newspaper and online publication Left Bank published an extensive interview with Mr Troyan, in which the journalists asked no questions at all about his neo-Nazi past or political views.
___
Let's address an oft-repeated nonsense I see that "the far right and nazi groups in Ukraine are a tiny minority with 0.00000001% parliamentary votes".
Stop this stupidity. It's not about who has how many seats in the parliament. It's who has guns on the streets and is willing to use them. And prior to the war, the far right/neonazi groups have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they are well armed and perfectly willing to use these weapons. They use your parliamentary seats for toilet paper so stop bringing this up.
Well, shoot, I guess Russia should invade America, cuz we have more neo azis than Ukraine. Which you'd probably embrace.
And they are working together, aren't they? I don't suppose you saw a DHS memo that expressed concerns about American far right groups traveling to fight in Ukraine and then returning home with nasty tricks they learned there?
That's an American problem that has nothing to do with Ukraine. That you posit it as such makes you look like Putin's lap dog.
LOL tell DHS don't tell me. It's not like they went off to the Maldives did they.
Why would I tell DHS? They'd just agree. It doesn't mean Ukraine has a neonazi problem any worse than the U.S. does, or Russia does.
Does the US have neonazi military units absorbed into its regular armed forces?
Does the US glorify nazi collaborators as national heroes?
Anonymous wrote:I want to see Russian bled dry and right now, our policy and treasure is doing that. I think we're committed at this point and pulling back would only emboldened Putin. How much have we spent? $10+ billion? It's a small price to pay to see one of our biggest adversaries reduced to a third-rate power.
I mean… they’ve always been third rate. But it’s delightful to have it displayed for all the world to see.
A third rate army is sitting on 20% of Ukraine. It's hard to imagine what a second rate army would have been able to do, or, god forbid, a first-rate one!
Well I guess we’ll never know, since Russia really sucks at this.
And that is Ukraine's good luck. Actually, it's Ukraine's super good luck that it was Russia that attacked it. If it was attacked by, say, some obscure Eastern European state like Moldova or Montenegro, all it would get would be some phd types on PBS digging up twelfth century battles and historical details of things no one cares about. Also, this program would have the viewership of maybe twelve people, including family members of these phd types. And if it was, like Niger attacking Chad, well not a single white person would care. But since it is Russia, the country the West decided it will hate because it simply refuses to be led, Ukraine is getting pummeled, yes, but it's also getting tons of sympathy points, and once the war is over, it will get tons of aid. So, there is the silver lining. Just like it was Palestinians' good luck to be oppressed by Israel, and not, say, Yemen. Because Arabs oppressed by other Arabs get bubkes by way of Western attention or sympathy.
WTH. People hate Russia because they've got nukes and they threaten to use them.
And they bomb the daylight out of other countries (Syria, anyone?) Nice white washing.
If you're American, you have no grounds to blame other countries for bombing the daylight out of anything, since America does this with abandon.
Russia still beats us at that by a mile. One doesn't have to think of the US as without fault to realize that Russia is top of the class in that regard.
LOL no it doesn't.
Count American and American-led military invasions in the last 20 years. Now count Russia-led ones. Compare two numbers.
Count the casualties in #1. Now count the casualties in #2. Compare two numbers.
Now, count the number of American military bases around the world. Now, count the Russian ones. Compare two numbers.
This year alone theyve threatened to invade the UK, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria as well.
But why limit it to 20 years. How many years out of the past 200 has Moscovy been peaceful towards their neighbors?
If we’re going back years then England takes the cake.
Colonizer devils that terrorized worldwide.
Maybe but they've at least learned from their past and reformed. Muscovy and its successor states, the USSR and Russia, just double down on the oppression and aggression each time they change.
The list of countries that have started a war of territorial expansion since WW2 is very small. China with Tibet, Iraq with Kuwait, Indonesia with East Timor, and Russia with Ukraine on multiple occassions as well as Moldova, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.
Why are some countries allowed to split into multiple parts and some aren't?
It's up to them, not a third party that wants it for themselves. Russia trying to take over Ukraine and make it Russia is not the same as Ethiopia and Eritrea deciding to go their separate ways.
The only country in the entire world that has engaged in a war of territorial conquest this century is Russia. And they've done it three times.
When Ukraine lashed out at Yanukovich for betraying them regarding joining the EU, they threw him out of office. Yanukovich was of course Putin's guy and that meant Putin was losing his grip on Ukraine. In retaliation, Putin sent thousands of mercenaries and provocateurs into Donbas to stage their fake rebellion and independence referendum.
Well they didn't just throw him out, did they. They had quite a bit of help on that. It was also quite violent, and not at all universally embraced. Specifically, eastern Ukraine hated the idea and didn't want to go along with the changes. They felt the coup was forced down their throat. You're lying if you say this resistance was fake. Eastern Ukraine never had much in common with the Polish-oriented Ukraine.
The new Ukraine could have courted their eastern citizens a bit more instead of taking them for granted.
And that would have prevented Russia from invading? Twice! Lol
Gosh, I hope the 25,000 Russian troops about to be stranded across the Dniper are ok. Lucky for them Ukrainians aren't as into mutilation, murder and gang rape as the Russians.
LOL you poor innocent sweet child. Maybe you should talk to the descendants of Ukraine's Jews, or the victims of Ukraine's national hero Stepan Bandera, or the family members of those burned alive in Odesa during anti-Maidan protests, the tragedy the government refused to investigate or prosecute.
There are no cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians, none. Both are prone to violence, corruption and oppression.
So Bandera's group did pledge allegiance to Hitler's Nazi Germany. Bandera said he wanted ideological and ethnic purity for Ukraine. The Germans ultimately turned against Bandera and arrested him.
Bandera's Order of Ukrainian Nationalists also did some violent things in pursuit of sovereignty. Jews and Polish people were massacred.
"The fight was violent. It was killing, gruesome killings, against all the perceived enemies," says political scientist Gulnaz Sharafutdinova of King's College London. "There were strong powers around that little part of Ukraine, western Ukraine, so it was a really hard fight."
Many of these details have only come out recently, since the KGB, the CIA and others have declassified records. The question is whether a person who's involved in the death of tens of thousands of people can also be a political hero.
"Heroes are written in the aftermath and retrospectively, and a lot of the inconvenient facts are usually written off," says Sharafutdinova. "History is written by the winners, right?"
In 2010, Ukraine's government officially recognized Bandera as a national hero, a move that was condemned by the European Parliament among others. The next year, a new government annulled that award after a domestic and international outcry.
Hahaha, still trying to push the nazi thing. You're hilarious. Three words: Pale of Settlement
Before it became verboten to criticize the Azov group and Ukraine, its neonazi problem was covered widely in mainstream, totally establishment American sources.
The first link I clicked on, the BBC article, says this is a false premise. And it didn't even take me 5 minutes to see it.
It says:
"Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.
This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold."
Well let's continue reading, shall we:
But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.
As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.
...Nevertheless, the fact is, neo-Nazis are indeed a fixture in Ukraine's new political landscape, albeit in small numbers.
Azov Battalion
As Mr Korotkykh's case demonstrates, the ultra-nationalists have proven to be effective and dedicated fighters in the brutal war in the east against Russian-backed separatists and Russian forces, whose numbers also include a large contingent from Russia's far right.
As a result, they have achieved a level of acceptance, even though most Ukrainians are unfamiliar with their actual beliefs.
The volunteer Azov Battalion is a case in point.
Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia: a modified Wolf's Hook, a black sun (or "Hakensonne") and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.
Azov is just one of more than 50 volunteer groups fighting in the east, the vast majority of which are not extremist, yet it seems to enjoy special backing from some top officials:
Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and his deputy Anton Gerashchenko actively supported the parliament candidacy of Andriy Biletsky, the Azov and Patriot of Ukraine commander
Vadim Troyan, another top Azov official and Patriot of Ukraine member, was recently named police chief for the Kiev region
Mr Korotkykh is also an Azov member
Ukraine's media have been noticeably silent on this subject.
Recently, prominent newspaper and online publication Left Bank published an extensive interview with Mr Troyan, in which the journalists asked no questions at all about his neo-Nazi past or political views.
___
Let's address an oft-repeated nonsense I see that "the far right and nazi groups in Ukraine are a tiny minority with 0.00000001% parliamentary votes".
Stop this stupidity. It's not about who has how many seats in the parliament. It's who has guns on the streets and is willing to use them. And prior to the war, the far right/neonazi groups have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they are well armed and perfectly willing to use these weapons. They use your parliamentary seats for toilet paper so stop bringing this up.
Well, shoot, I guess Russia should invade America, cuz we have more neo azis than Ukraine. Which you'd probably embrace.
And they are working together, aren't they? I don't suppose you saw a DHS memo that expressed concerns about American far right groups traveling to fight in Ukraine and then returning home with nasty tricks they learned there?
That's an American problem that has nothing to do with Ukraine. That you posit it as such makes you look like Putin's lap dog.
LOL tell DHS don't tell me. It's not like they went off to the Maldives did they.
Why would I tell DHS? They'd just agree. It doesn't mean Ukraine has a neonazi problem any worse than the U.S. does, or Russia does.
Does the US have neonazi military units absorbed into its regular armed forces?
Does the US glorify nazi collaborators as national heroes?
Why the f? The world can see what the Russians are doing. Stop with your Putin trumpist propaganda.
Anonymous wrote:I want to see Russian bled dry and right now, our policy and treasure is doing that. I think we're committed at this point and pulling back would only emboldened Putin. How much have we spent? $10+ billion? It's a small price to pay to see one of our biggest adversaries reduced to a third-rate power.
I mean… they’ve always been third rate. But it’s delightful to have it displayed for all the world to see.
A third rate army is sitting on 20% of Ukraine. It's hard to imagine what a second rate army would have been able to do, or, god forbid, a first-rate one!
Well I guess we’ll never know, since Russia really sucks at this.
And that is Ukraine's good luck. Actually, it's Ukraine's super good luck that it was Russia that attacked it. If it was attacked by, say, some obscure Eastern European state like Moldova or Montenegro, all it would get would be some phd types on PBS digging up twelfth century battles and historical details of things no one cares about. Also, this program would have the viewership of maybe twelve people, including family members of these phd types. And if it was, like Niger attacking Chad, well not a single white person would care. But since it is Russia, the country the West decided it will hate because it simply refuses to be led, Ukraine is getting pummeled, yes, but it's also getting tons of sympathy points, and once the war is over, it will get tons of aid. So, there is the silver lining. Just like it was Palestinians' good luck to be oppressed by Israel, and not, say, Yemen. Because Arabs oppressed by other Arabs get bubkes by way of Western attention or sympathy.
WTH. People hate Russia because they've got nukes and they threaten to use them.
And they bomb the daylight out of other countries (Syria, anyone?) Nice white washing.
If you're American, you have no grounds to blame other countries for bombing the daylight out of anything, since America does this with abandon.
Russia still beats us at that by a mile. One doesn't have to think of the US as without fault to realize that Russia is top of the class in that regard.
LOL no it doesn't.
Count American and American-led military invasions in the last 20 years. Now count Russia-led ones. Compare two numbers.
Count the casualties in #1. Now count the casualties in #2. Compare two numbers.
Now, count the number of American military bases around the world. Now, count the Russian ones. Compare two numbers.
This year alone theyve threatened to invade the UK, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria as well.
But why limit it to 20 years. How many years out of the past 200 has Moscovy been peaceful towards their neighbors?
If we’re going back years then England takes the cake.
Colonizer devils that terrorized worldwide.
Maybe but they've at least learned from their past and reformed. Muscovy and its successor states, the USSR and Russia, just double down on the oppression and aggression each time they change.
The list of countries that have started a war of territorial expansion since WW2 is very small. China with Tibet, Iraq with Kuwait, Indonesia with East Timor, and Russia with Ukraine on multiple occassions as well as Moldova, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.
Why are some countries allowed to split into multiple parts and some aren't?
It's up to them, not a third party that wants it for themselves. Russia trying to take over Ukraine and make it Russia is not the same as Ethiopia and Eritrea deciding to go their separate ways.
The only country in the entire world that has engaged in a war of territorial conquest this century is Russia. And they've done it three times.
When Ukraine lashed out at Yanukovich for betraying them regarding joining the EU, they threw him out of office. Yanukovich was of course Putin's guy and that meant Putin was losing his grip on Ukraine. In retaliation, Putin sent thousands of mercenaries and provocateurs into Donbas to stage their fake rebellion and independence referendum.
Well they didn't just throw him out, did they. They had quite a bit of help on that. It was also quite violent, and not at all universally embraced. Specifically, eastern Ukraine hated the idea and didn't want to go along with the changes. They felt the coup was forced down their throat. You're lying if you say this resistance was fake. Eastern Ukraine never had much in common with the Polish-oriented Ukraine.
The new Ukraine could have courted their eastern citizens a bit more instead of taking them for granted.
And that would have prevented Russia from invading? Twice! Lol
Gosh, I hope the 25,000 Russian troops about to be stranded across the Dniper are ok. Lucky for them Ukrainians aren't as into mutilation, murder and gang rape as the Russians.
LOL you poor innocent sweet child. Maybe you should talk to the descendants of Ukraine's Jews, or the victims of Ukraine's national hero Stepan Bandera, or the family members of those burned alive in Odesa during anti-Maidan protests, the tragedy the government refused to investigate or prosecute.
There are no cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians, none. Both are prone to violence, corruption and oppression.
So Bandera's group did pledge allegiance to Hitler's Nazi Germany. Bandera said he wanted ideological and ethnic purity for Ukraine. The Germans ultimately turned against Bandera and arrested him.
Bandera's Order of Ukrainian Nationalists also did some violent things in pursuit of sovereignty. Jews and Polish people were massacred.
"The fight was violent. It was killing, gruesome killings, against all the perceived enemies," says political scientist Gulnaz Sharafutdinova of King's College London. "There were strong powers around that little part of Ukraine, western Ukraine, so it was a really hard fight."
Many of these details have only come out recently, since the KGB, the CIA and others have declassified records. The question is whether a person who's involved in the death of tens of thousands of people can also be a political hero.
"Heroes are written in the aftermath and retrospectively, and a lot of the inconvenient facts are usually written off," says Sharafutdinova. "History is written by the winners, right?"
In 2010, Ukraine's government officially recognized Bandera as a national hero, a move that was condemned by the European Parliament among others. The next year, a new government annulled that award after a domestic and international outcry.
Hahaha, still trying to push the nazi thing. You're hilarious. Three words: Pale of Settlement
Before it became verboten to criticize the Azov group and Ukraine, its neonazi problem was covered widely in mainstream, totally establishment American sources.
The first link I clicked on, the BBC article, says this is a false premise. And it didn't even take me 5 minutes to see it.
It says:
"Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.
This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold."
Well let's continue reading, shall we:
But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.
As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.
...Nevertheless, the fact is, neo-Nazis are indeed a fixture in Ukraine's new political landscape, albeit in small numbers.
Azov Battalion
As Mr Korotkykh's case demonstrates, the ultra-nationalists have proven to be effective and dedicated fighters in the brutal war in the east against Russian-backed separatists and Russian forces, whose numbers also include a large contingent from Russia's far right.
As a result, they have achieved a level of acceptance, even though most Ukrainians are unfamiliar with their actual beliefs.
The volunteer Azov Battalion is a case in point.
Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia: a modified Wolf's Hook, a black sun (or "Hakensonne") and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.
Azov is just one of more than 50 volunteer groups fighting in the east, the vast majority of which are not extremist, yet it seems to enjoy special backing from some top officials:
Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and his deputy Anton Gerashchenko actively supported the parliament candidacy of Andriy Biletsky, the Azov and Patriot of Ukraine commander
Vadim Troyan, another top Azov official and Patriot of Ukraine member, was recently named police chief for the Kiev region
Mr Korotkykh is also an Azov member
Ukraine's media have been noticeably silent on this subject.
Recently, prominent newspaper and online publication Left Bank published an extensive interview with Mr Troyan, in which the journalists asked no questions at all about his neo-Nazi past or political views.
___
Let's address an oft-repeated nonsense I see that "the far right and nazi groups in Ukraine are a tiny minority with 0.00000001% parliamentary votes".
Stop this stupidity. It's not about who has how many seats in the parliament. It's who has guns on the streets and is willing to use them. And prior to the war, the far right/neonazi groups have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they are well armed and perfectly willing to use these weapons. They use your parliamentary seats for toilet paper so stop bringing this up.
Well, shoot, I guess Russia should invade America, cuz we have more neo azis than Ukraine. Which you'd probably embrace.
And they are working together, aren't they? I don't suppose you saw a DHS memo that expressed concerns about American far right groups traveling to fight in Ukraine and then returning home with nasty tricks they learned there?
That's an American problem that has nothing to do with Ukraine. That you posit it as such makes you look like Putin's lap dog.
LOL tell DHS don't tell me. It's not like they went off to the Maldives did they.
Why would I tell DHS? They'd just agree. It doesn't mean Ukraine has a neonazi problem any worse than the U.S. does, or Russia does.
Does the US have neonazi military units absorbed into its regular armed forces?
Does the US glorify nazi collaborators as national heroes?
Why the f? The world can see what the Russians are doing. Stop with your Putin trumpist propaganda.
You're saying you'd rather not know this?
Or you can't digest the picture of the world where a country can be invaded AND flawed?
Anonymous wrote:I want to see Russian bled dry and right now, our policy and treasure is doing that. I think we're committed at this point and pulling back would only emboldened Putin. How much have we spent? $10+ billion? It's a small price to pay to see one of our biggest adversaries reduced to a third-rate power.
I mean… they’ve always been third rate. But it’s delightful to have it displayed for all the world to see.
A third rate army is sitting on 20% of Ukraine. It's hard to imagine what a second rate army would have been able to do, or, god forbid, a first-rate one!
Well I guess we’ll never know, since Russia really sucks at this.
And that is Ukraine's good luck. Actually, it's Ukraine's super good luck that it was Russia that attacked it. If it was attacked by, say, some obscure Eastern European state like Moldova or Montenegro, all it would get would be some phd types on PBS digging up twelfth century battles and historical details of things no one cares about. Also, this program would have the viewership of maybe twelve people, including family members of these phd types. And if it was, like Niger attacking Chad, well not a single white person would care. But since it is Russia, the country the West decided it will hate because it simply refuses to be led, Ukraine is getting pummeled, yes, but it's also getting tons of sympathy points, and once the war is over, it will get tons of aid. So, there is the silver lining. Just like it was Palestinians' good luck to be oppressed by Israel, and not, say, Yemen. Because Arabs oppressed by other Arabs get bubkes by way of Western attention or sympathy.
WTH. People hate Russia because they've got nukes and they threaten to use them.
And they bomb the daylight out of other countries (Syria, anyone?) Nice white washing.
If you're American, you have no grounds to blame other countries for bombing the daylight out of anything, since America does this with abandon.
Russia still beats us at that by a mile. One doesn't have to think of the US as without fault to realize that Russia is top of the class in that regard.
LOL no it doesn't.
Count American and American-led military invasions in the last 20 years. Now count Russia-led ones. Compare two numbers.
Count the casualties in #1. Now count the casualties in #2. Compare two numbers.
Now, count the number of American military bases around the world. Now, count the Russian ones. Compare two numbers.
This year alone theyve threatened to invade the UK, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria as well.
But why limit it to 20 years. How many years out of the past 200 has Moscovy been peaceful towards their neighbors?
If we’re going back years then England takes the cake.
Colonizer devils that terrorized worldwide.
Maybe but they've at least learned from their past and reformed. Muscovy and its successor states, the USSR and Russia, just double down on the oppression and aggression each time they change.
The list of countries that have started a war of territorial expansion since WW2 is very small. China with Tibet, Iraq with Kuwait, Indonesia with East Timor, and Russia with Ukraine on multiple occassions as well as Moldova, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.
Why are some countries allowed to split into multiple parts and some aren't?
It's up to them, not a third party that wants it for themselves. Russia trying to take over Ukraine and make it Russia is not the same as Ethiopia and Eritrea deciding to go their separate ways.
The only country in the entire world that has engaged in a war of territorial conquest this century is Russia. And they've done it three times.
When Ukraine lashed out at Yanukovich for betraying them regarding joining the EU, they threw him out of office. Yanukovich was of course Putin's guy and that meant Putin was losing his grip on Ukraine. In retaliation, Putin sent thousands of mercenaries and provocateurs into Donbas to stage their fake rebellion and independence referendum.
Well they didn't just throw him out, did they. They had quite a bit of help on that. It was also quite violent, and not at all universally embraced. Specifically, eastern Ukraine hated the idea and didn't want to go along with the changes. They felt the coup was forced down their throat. You're lying if you say this resistance was fake. Eastern Ukraine never had much in common with the Polish-oriented Ukraine.
The new Ukraine could have courted their eastern citizens a bit more instead of taking them for granted.
And that would have prevented Russia from invading? Twice! Lol
Gosh, I hope the 25,000 Russian troops about to be stranded across the Dniper are ok. Lucky for them Ukrainians aren't as into mutilation, murder and gang rape as the Russians.
LOL you poor innocent sweet child. Maybe you should talk to the descendants of Ukraine's Jews, or the victims of Ukraine's national hero Stepan Bandera, or the family members of those burned alive in Odesa during anti-Maidan protests, the tragedy the government refused to investigate or prosecute.
There are no cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians, none. Both are prone to violence, corruption and oppression.
So Bandera's group did pledge allegiance to Hitler's Nazi Germany. Bandera said he wanted ideological and ethnic purity for Ukraine. The Germans ultimately turned against Bandera and arrested him.
Bandera's Order of Ukrainian Nationalists also did some violent things in pursuit of sovereignty. Jews and Polish people were massacred.
"The fight was violent. It was killing, gruesome killings, against all the perceived enemies," says political scientist Gulnaz Sharafutdinova of King's College London. "There were strong powers around that little part of Ukraine, western Ukraine, so it was a really hard fight."
Many of these details have only come out recently, since the KGB, the CIA and others have declassified records. The question is whether a person who's involved in the death of tens of thousands of people can also be a political hero.
"Heroes are written in the aftermath and retrospectively, and a lot of the inconvenient facts are usually written off," says Sharafutdinova. "History is written by the winners, right?"
In 2010, Ukraine's government officially recognized Bandera as a national hero, a move that was condemned by the European Parliament among others. The next year, a new government annulled that award after a domestic and international outcry.
Hahaha, still trying to push the nazi thing. You're hilarious. Three words: Pale of Settlement
Before it became verboten to criticize the Azov group and Ukraine, its neonazi problem was covered widely in mainstream, totally establishment American sources.
The first link I clicked on, the BBC article, says this is a false premise. And it didn't even take me 5 minutes to see it.
It says:
"Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.
This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold."
Well let's continue reading, shall we:
But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.
As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.
...Nevertheless, the fact is, neo-Nazis are indeed a fixture in Ukraine's new political landscape, albeit in small numbers.
Azov Battalion
As Mr Korotkykh's case demonstrates, the ultra-nationalists have proven to be effective and dedicated fighters in the brutal war in the east against Russian-backed separatists and Russian forces, whose numbers also include a large contingent from Russia's far right.
As a result, they have achieved a level of acceptance, even though most Ukrainians are unfamiliar with their actual beliefs.
The volunteer Azov Battalion is a case in point.
Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia: a modified Wolf's Hook, a black sun (or "Hakensonne") and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.
Azov is just one of more than 50 volunteer groups fighting in the east, the vast majority of which are not extremist, yet it seems to enjoy special backing from some top officials:
Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and his deputy Anton Gerashchenko actively supported the parliament candidacy of Andriy Biletsky, the Azov and Patriot of Ukraine commander
Vadim Troyan, another top Azov official and Patriot of Ukraine member, was recently named police chief for the Kiev region
Mr Korotkykh is also an Azov member
Ukraine's media have been noticeably silent on this subject.
Recently, prominent newspaper and online publication Left Bank published an extensive interview with Mr Troyan, in which the journalists asked no questions at all about his neo-Nazi past or political views.
___
Let's address an oft-repeated nonsense I see that "the far right and nazi groups in Ukraine are a tiny minority with 0.00000001% parliamentary votes".
Stop this stupidity. It's not about who has how many seats in the parliament. It's who has guns on the streets and is willing to use them. And prior to the war, the far right/neonazi groups have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they are well armed and perfectly willing to use these weapons. They use your parliamentary seats for toilet paper so stop bringing this up.
Well, shoot, I guess Russia should invade America, cuz we have more neo azis than Ukraine. Which you'd probably embrace.
And they are working together, aren't they? I don't suppose you saw a DHS memo that expressed concerns about American far right groups traveling to fight in Ukraine and then returning home with nasty tricks they learned there?
That's an American problem that has nothing to do with Ukraine. That you posit it as such makes you look like Putin's lap dog.
LOL tell DHS don't tell me. It's not like they went off to the Maldives did they.
Why would I tell DHS? They'd just agree. It doesn't mean Ukraine has a neonazi problem any worse than the U.S. does, or Russia does.
Russia actually has a pretty serious neo-nazi problem. The Wagner Group. That's why their rhetorical games are so ironic and stupid
IDK honestly, but it seems like this war is definitely putting a strain on European Union when it comes to access to oil and affordable heating/cooling for its citizens. Sounds like Europe at this moment is the one that's going to suffer harder toll on its populations' standard of living.
Anonymous wrote:I should preface this by saying that I'm not a pro-Russian troll. The invasion of Ukraine is both unprovoked and has led to an unending stream of Russian atrocities. I would love to see Russia pushed out of both Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.
But I'm getting confused about Ukraine's prognosis and our own objectives. Ukraine has failed to reclaim any significant territory since Kharkiv in the Spring. They lack the manpower to conduct the urban warfare required to push Russia from its defensive positions. From everything I've read the HIMARS long-range missiles donated by the US, while allowing spectacular strikes behind Russian lines, are not likely to substantially affect Russia's long-term defensive capabilities. So we have a long-term (maybe permanent) stalemate. Except it's only a stalemate because of constant infusions of weapons from NATO countries.
So are you supportive of a permanent lien on the US military budget to keep the war as a stalemate? Is that even a moral choice, given the civilian destruction that will result? Should we be pressing instead for some negotiated swap of territory for peace? Or is it better to keep on present course, checkmating Russia by proxy even at a cost to Ukraine's civilian population and military?
unfortunately at this point all Ukrainians hate the Russians with the kind of passion that will take generations to die away. This war will probably smolder for 100 years. You cannot awake such passions and expect peace again in your lifetime.
You say this yet a similar emotion rose in Chechnya after the war, and remember Chechnya suffered more than Ukraine did as of now. You would have thought the hatred would smolder but it did not. Chechens may dislike both regimes but they have no particular problem with ethnic Russians. So, I think that under the right circumstances, the hatred would be contained to those who inherited it through their DNA and that involves mostly Western and Poland-oriented Ukrainians, who are a minority.
The fact of the matter is that both countries are neighbors and share a border. This will not change. They will have to find some way to coexist and they will.
but the difference is the Chechens knew they actually deserved it. It seems like it was a lawless country that lived off kidnapping.
The Ukranians did nothing to deserve it. That is why their hate will never go away. They are more like the palestians and less like the Japanese/Germans after WWII.
Anonymous wrote:I should preface this by saying that I'm not a pro-Russian troll. The invasion of Ukraine is both unprovoked and has led to an unending stream of Russian atrocities. I would love to see Russia pushed out of both Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.
But I'm getting confused about Ukraine's prognosis and our own objectives. Ukraine has failed to reclaim any significant territory since Kharkiv in the Spring. They lack the manpower to conduct the urban warfare required to push Russia from its defensive positions. From everything I've read the HIMARS long-range missiles donated by the US, while allowing spectacular strikes behind Russian lines, are not likely to substantially affect Russia's long-term defensive capabilities. So we have a long-term (maybe permanent) stalemate. Except it's only a stalemate because of constant infusions of weapons from NATO countries.
So are you supportive of a permanent lien on the US military budget to keep the war as a stalemate? Is that even a moral choice, given the civilian destruction that will result? Should we be pressing instead for some negotiated swap of territory for peace? Or is it better to keep on present course, checkmating Russia by proxy even at a cost to Ukraine's civilian population and military?
unfortunately at this point all Ukrainians hate the Russians with the kind of passion that will take generations to die away. This war will probably smolder for 100 years. You cannot awake such passions and expect peace again in your lifetime.
You say this yet a similar emotion rose in Chechnya after the war, and remember Chechnya suffered more than Ukraine did as of now. You would have thought the hatred would smolder but it did not. Chechens may dislike both regimes but they have no particular problem with ethnic Russians. So, I think that under the right circumstances, the hatred would be contained to those who inherited it through their DNA and that involves mostly Western and Poland-oriented Ukrainians, who are a minority.
The fact of the matter is that both countries are neighbors and share a border. This will not change. They will have to find some way to coexist and they will.
but the difference is the Chechens knew they actually deserved it. It seems like it was a lawless country that lived off kidnapping.
The Ukranians did nothing to deserve it. That is why their hate will never go away. They are more like the palestians and less like the Japanese/Germans after WWII.
another more useful analogy might be Afganistan.
No country would see Afghanistan as a useful role model.
Anonymous wrote:I should preface this by saying that I'm not a pro-Russian troll. The invasion of Ukraine is both unprovoked and has led to an unending stream of Russian atrocities. I would love to see Russia pushed out of both Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.
But I'm getting confused about Ukraine's prognosis and our own objectives. Ukraine has failed to reclaim any significant territory since Kharkiv in the Spring. They lack the manpower to conduct the urban warfare required to push Russia from its defensive positions. From everything I've read the HIMARS long-range missiles donated by the US, while allowing spectacular strikes behind Russian lines, are not likely to substantially affect Russia's long-term defensive capabilities. So we have a long-term (maybe permanent) stalemate. Except it's only a stalemate because of constant infusions of weapons from NATO countries.
So are you supportive of a permanent lien on the US military budget to keep the war as a stalemate? Is that even a moral choice, given the civilian destruction that will result? Should we be pressing instead for some negotiated swap of territory for peace? Or is it better to keep on present course, checkmating Russia by proxy even at a cost to Ukraine's civilian population and military?
unfortunately at this point all Ukrainians hate the Russians with the kind of passion that will take generations to die away. This war will probably smolder for 100 years. You cannot awake such passions and expect peace again in your lifetime.
You say this yet a similar emotion rose in Chechnya after the war, and remember Chechnya suffered more than Ukraine did as of now. You would have thought the hatred would smolder but it did not. Chechens may dislike both regimes but they have no particular problem with ethnic Russians. So, I think that under the right circumstances, the hatred would be contained to those who inherited it through their DNA and that involves mostly Western and Poland-oriented Ukrainians, who are a minority.
The fact of the matter is that both countries are neighbors and share a border. This will not change. They will have to find some way to coexist and they will.
but the difference is the Chechens knew they actually deserved it. It seems like it was a lawless country that lived off kidnapping.
The Ukranians did nothing to deserve it. That is why their hate will never go away. They are more like the palestians and less like the Japanese/Germans after WWII.
another more useful analogy might be Afganistan.
No country would see Afghanistan as a useful role model.
Don't worry it's just some insane framing from our friendly trolls. They also claimed that Chechens "knew they actually deserved it" while also claiming to know nothing about it.
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