Coalition4TJ’s request to block TJ admissions process DENIED 6-3 by Supreme Court

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable.

You mean at least Geometry in 8th?

Yes. I think it is fair to ask for a higher level of math at TJ, given the nature of the school. I don't think that taking Algebra 2 or other classes is reasonable. The kids who have those classes are more likely families that have done some type of supplementation and who either knew how to get their kid into Algebra 1 in 6th grade, which is not easy, or whose kids took Geometry in the summer which is less doable for Lower SES families were kids might need to work or watch siblings. The kids who have higher math when they start TJ will be able to move into different math classes more quickly.

Geometry in 8th is reasonable if Algebra in 7th is open to anyone who elects to take it.

+1000. And this is definitely not the case in all middle schools, and access is very limited in Prince William County.

My kid graduated from TJ as a PWC student and had no problem taking Algebra I in the 7th grade and Geometry in the 8th grade and that was several years ago and I would assume it is easier now.

It is some of restricted in FCPS. The kid needs get passed 'advanced' 7th grade math SOL (which is pre-algebra) and score at least 91 percentile on IOWA test (which is also pre-algebra). However, only kids in AAP or Advanced Math are allowed to take either the required SOL or IOWA test, which makes it somewhat restricted. FCPS could remove these test requirements, but I can honestly say that if the kid doesn't understand pre-algebra well enough, Algebra I HN is going to be very difficult and Geo HN even more difficult in 8th grade. My kid scored almost perfect score in Algebra I, but is barely managing an A in Geometry HN and saying its significantly more difficult than Algebra I which was a cake walk for him. However, I would still think FCPS should make Algebra I HN open to all and let the kids decide if they can handle it.

I believe US education system is undermining or restricting STEM education more than necessary. I am sure 13yr olds are more than capable of handling algebra provided pre-algebra is taught as default to all the 6th graders. My 4th grader is able to go all the way pre-algebra in Kumon in a span of 1.5 yrs - we only started kumon because she wasn't really doing that great at math in school and thought kumon would help. If my kid can do it, I am sure many kids could do as well. The kid needs to trust the self and teachers need to guide accordingly and we shouldn't really need Kumon or something else to realize the kids potential.

Most asian countries introduce algebra for all the 6th graders and more concepts each year after. But the big difference is, they spend the entire year on Algebra i.e., a lot of the concepts are slowly introduced and go deeper in the grades above and not dump everything in one year and expect kids to absorb all. When I was in school, we all had to learn trig, calculus (integration/differentials) , matrix algebra, transformations, statistics etc by 10th grade - I mean all the kids, no screening tests etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable.

You mean at least Geometry in 8th?

Yes. I think it is fair to ask for a higher level of math at TJ, given the nature of the school. I don't think that taking Algebra 2 or other classes is reasonable. The kids who have those classes are more likely families that have done some type of supplementation and who either knew how to get their kid into Algebra 1 in 6th grade, which is not easy, or whose kids took Geometry in the summer which is less doable for Lower SES families were kids might need to work or watch siblings. The kids who have higher math when they start TJ will be able to move into different math classes more quickly.

Geometry in 8th is reasonable if Algebra in 7th is open to anyone who elects to take it.

+1000. And this is definitely not the case in all middle schools, and access is very limited in Prince William County.

My kid graduated from TJ as a PWC student and had no problem taking Algebra I in the 7th grade and Geometry in the 8th grade and that was several years ago and I would assume it is easier now.

It is some of restricted in FCPS. The kid needs get passed 'advanced' 7th grade math SOL (which is pre-algebra) and score at least 91 percentile on IOWA test (which is also pre-algebra). However, only kids in AAP or Advanced Math are allowed to take either the required SOL or IOWA test, which makes it somewhat restricted. FCPS could remove these test requirements, but I can honestly say that if the kid doesn't understand pre-algebra well enough, Algebra I HN is going to be very difficult and Geo HN even more difficult in 8th grade. My kid scored almost perfect score in Algebra I, but is barely managing an A in Geometry HN and saying its significantly more difficult than Algebra I which was a cake walk for him. However, I would still think FCPS should make Algebra I HN open to all and let the kids decide if they can handle it.

It is similar in PWC as to the SOL/IOWA requirements with only difference being AAP/Adv math track requirement since there is no AAP in PWC. My point was that if PWC kid with no prep and no tutoring (and supposedly subpar education of PWC) can graduate as one of the top students from TJ, virtually any student from any FCPS middle schools should be able to apply without complaining of lack of resources or needing booster points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's over, the court has spoken. All tiger moms get back in your cages and settle down.

It's not over. The S Ct only said TJ can seat the class of 2026. The case hasn't been decided on the merits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's funny (and sad) how Asians are mad at African Americans while the number of white students getting in hasn't been impacted.

I think you are interpreting this wrong. I am an asian and I am not mad african americans or whites. In fact, I am happy that more african americans are able to get into TJ. What I am mad at is the process fcps implemented with out thinking through much and in fact going with not so explicit target of cutting down asian students from specific feeder schools without saying race anywhere, but old critiera that was taken out or weightage/points given to new criteria so undermine advantages for specific groups of kids. In the end, they came up with a process that could easily eliminate more deserved students vs others as the new process makes it difficult to identify talent. I would rather be so much happier if they just implemented a lottery for all the qualified candidates as it will be totally unbiased and fair.

it seems more likely because the spots for others have to come from somewhere and with Asians having 70%+ of all spots they were impacted but are still the most well-represented group...

It’s not that I don’t get it. Of course the numbers have to come from somewhere. What I am basically pointing at is the new admission process makes it difficult to identify the STEM talent especially when the writing skills (essay and portrait sheet) gets 2X weightage as compared to entire GPA for all courses put together and on top the unweighted GPA discourages taking advanced courses.

You don’t believe me when I say that my kid probably has equal chances of getting in his feeder school compared to some of his friends who are taking Algebra 2 and even pre-cal in 8th grade. Under the older system with teacher input he would have very little chance. But I still think its unfair for my kid to get selected over his much smarter friends (according my kid), if it actually happens.

All of the kids have to take Honors or AAP Science and Math and at least one other class as an honors class. So their overall GPA included a minimum of three honors classes. I am not sure if electives even have an honors option.

How do you identify STEM talent in 8th grade without including the extra curricular activities? Activities that not every kid has access to because of lack of knowledge, parents with time to take them to and from, or the money to afford the activity. Is it fair that I can afford to send my kid to RSM and robotics club while a kid from a lower SES family is needed at home to watch his/her siblings and cannot afford either activity? That kid could be interested in STEM but never got the chance to explore it to figure that out because they were not exposed while my kid got to take art classes, coding classes, robotics, rec sports, and other things in order to figure out what he liked. Requiring that kids have a solid academic background to attend TJ allows kids who are smart and have STEM skills to attend a school that will push them and expose them to activities and courses that they may not have access to.

I know kids who passed all the tests and had teacher recommendations and were accepted to TJ who went to college and became English Teachers. They had all the STEM credentials a kid needed but could careless about STEM. They went to TJ because their parents wanted them to go there because it was the best and they did great. But they were not STEM kids.

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable. I think they should keep the guaranteed seats from each MS school. I think you should be judged against the students at the MS school you choose to attend. You have a choice to attend a Center school or not, if you choose the Center school you are accepting the fact that there will be more competition for those seats. I am fine with bringing back letters of recommendation. But TJ should look like the County. There are plenty of smart, motivated kids at lower SES MS who will do well there and they should have a seat at the school. The old system was structured in a way that made that incredibly hard and favored higher SES families. There is nothing wrong with balancing that out and there is nothing wrong with giving kids who have had far fewer opportunities a chance to discover STEM.

I don't think we should put so much responsibility on 6th graders and their school choice shouldn't determine their chances of getting into TJ. If you really want to do it the right away, there shouldn't be a default placement for AAP kids into center school. Instead, at orientation, counselors should openly tell all the 6th graders about how their school choice hurts or benefits their chances of getting into TJ and kids who knew and care about TJ should really think choose their middle school carefully etc. Most 6th graders aren't even aware of this and probably not thinking about high school prospects in 6th grade. My strong opinion is kids chances shouldn't be hurt by his/her choice of middle school and if it does it is totally unfair.

In our case, we were hardly thinking about TJ in 6th grade and our biggest worry at the time was elem->middle transition and what courses/electives to plan and choose when we had so many options to choose from unlike elementary school. We just went with the default placement. Even if they asked us to make our middle school choice based on TJ, we probably would have paid much attention to it.

The best solution (as you said earlier) is to raise the bar a little higher by making Geo Honors required by 8th grade (make Algebra I HN open to all in 7th) and also require all the core courses in both 7th and 8th grade to be Honors (already open to all), raise the min GPA to 3.75 (required to be maintained by end of 8th or admission can be revoked), consider at least 3 quarters of 8th grade GPA at selection time (slight delay in decisions, but plenty of time as there won't any essays to grade etc) and require at least 1 or 2 STEM electives that were offered at their attending middle school. This should cut down the pool a bit, but ensures that TJ aspirants clearly demonstrate interest in STEM by taking advantage of all the resources available at whatever middle school they are attending. Then, choose the kids via LOTTERY from all the who met the criteria and remained in the pool. It eliminates all the bias, whether it is racial, geographical, teacher/school, financial etc. I know our opinions don't really matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about this?

I think you make some fair points and I could see something like this working if you give it time for Alg 1 to be offered openly everywhere in 7th without an IOWA gatekeeper. But I've never liked the lottery concept because I still think you run into too many kids being left out who would genuinely be best served at TJ and cannot be well-served anywhere else.

I bolded the piece about school choice determining TJ access because in reality, the previous admissions process did just that. If you were at a center school, you had an EXCELLENT chance to get in for various reasons, and if you didn't, you were likely out of luck. The number of structural advantages that center schools had under the previous process goes far beyond just having more AAP students - you had entire communities that prioritized the TJ process for years and helped each other with navigating it for years. The new admissions process gives every interested student a chance to believe that they might be selected and afforded the advanced opportunities.

If the new admission process provides better opportunity for all kids, then there is no need to punish the kids who happened to default center school as they weren’t aware it would hurt their TJ chances right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's funny (and sad) how Asians are mad at African Americans while the number of white students getting in hasn't been impacted.

I think you are interpreting this wrong. I am an asian and I am not mad african americans or whites. In fact, I am happy that more african americans are able to get into TJ. What I am mad at is the process fcps implemented with out thinking through much and in fact going with not so explicit target of cutting down asian students from specific feeder schools without saying race anywhere, but old critiera that was taken out or weightage/points given to new criteria so undermine advantages for specific groups of kids. In the end, they came up with a process that could easily eliminate more deserved students vs others as the new process makes it difficult to identify talent. I would rather be so much happier if they just implemented a lottery for all the qualified candidates as it will be totally unbiased and fair.

it seems more likely because the spots for others have to come from somewhere and with Asians having 70%+ of all spots they were impacted but are still the most well-represented group...

It’s not that I don’t get it. Of course the numbers have to come from somewhere. What I am basically pointing at is the new admission process makes it difficult to identify the STEM talent especially when the writing skills (essay and portrait sheet) gets 2X weightage as compared to entire GPA for all courses put together and on top the unweighted GPA discourages taking advanced courses.

You don’t believe me when I say that my kid probably has equal chances of getting in his feeder school compared to some of his friends who are taking Algebra 2 and even pre-cal in 8th grade. Under the older system with teacher input he would have very little chance. But I still think its unfair for my kid to get selected over his much smarter friends (according my kid), if it actually happens.

All of the kids have to take Honors or AAP Science and Math and at least one other class as an honors class. So their overall GPA included a minimum of three honors classes. I am not sure if electives even have an honors option.

How do you identify STEM talent in 8th grade without including the extra curricular activities? Activities that not every kid has access to because of lack of knowledge, parents with time to take them to and from, or the money to afford the activity. Is it fair that I can afford to send my kid to RSM and robotics club while a kid from a lower SES family is needed at home to watch his/her siblings and cannot afford either activity? That kid could be interested in STEM but never got the chance to explore it to figure that out because they were not exposed while my kid got to take art classes, coding classes, robotics, rec sports, and other things in order to figure out what he liked. Requiring that kids have a solid academic background to attend TJ allows kids who are smart and have STEM skills to attend a school that will push them and expose them to activities and courses that they may not have access to.

I know kids who passed all the tests and had teacher recommendations and were accepted to TJ who went to college and became English Teachers. They had all the STEM credentials a kid needed but could careless about STEM. They went to TJ because their parents wanted them to go there because it was the best and they did great. But they were not STEM kids.

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable. I think they should keep the guaranteed seats from each MS school. I think you should be judged against the students at the MS school you choose to attend. You have a choice to attend a Center school or not, if you choose the Center school you are accepting the fact that there will be more competition for those seats. I am fine with bringing back letters of recommendation. But TJ should look like the County. There are plenty of smart, motivated kids at lower SES MS who will do well there and they should have a seat at the school. The old system was structured in a way that made that incredibly hard and favored higher SES families. There is nothing wrong with balancing that out and there is nothing wrong with giving kids who have had far fewer opportunities a chance to discover STEM.

I don't think we should put so much responsibility on 6th graders and their school choice shouldn't determine their chances of getting into TJ. If you really want to do it the right away, there shouldn't be a default placement for AAP kids into center school. Instead, at orientation, counselors should openly tell all the 6th graders about how their school choice hurts or benefits their chances of getting into TJ and kids who knew and care about TJ should really think choose their middle school carefully etc. Most 6th graders aren't even aware of this and probably not thinking about high school prospects in 6th grade. My strong opinion is kids chances shouldn't be hurt by his/her choice of middle school and if it does it is totally unfair.

In our case, we were hardly thinking about TJ in 6th grade and our biggest worry at the time was elem->middle transition and what courses/electives to plan and choose when we had so many options to choose from unlike elementary school. We just went with the default placement. Even if they asked us to make our middle school choice based on TJ, we probably would have paid much attention to it.

The best solution (as you said earlier) is to raise the bar a little higher by making Geo Honors required by 8th grade (make Algebra I HN open to all in 7th) and also require all the core courses in both 7th and 8th grade to be Honors (already open to all), raise the min GPA to 3.75 (required to be maintained by end of 8th or admission can be revoked), consider at least 3 quarters of 8th grade GPA at selection time (slight delay in decisions, but plenty of time as there won't any essays to grade etc) and require at least 1 or 2 STEM electives that were offered at their attending middle school. This should cut down the pool a bit, but ensures that TJ aspirants clearly demonstrate interest in STEM by taking advantage of all the resources available at whatever middle school they are attending. Then, choose the kids via LOTTERY from all the who met the criteria and remained in the pool. It eliminates all the bias, whether it is racial, geographical, teacher/school, financial etc. I know our opinions don't really matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about this?

I think you make some fair points and I could see something like this working if you give it time for Alg 1 to be offered openly everywhere in 7th without an IOWA gatekeeper. But I've never liked the lottery concept because I still think you run into too many kids being left out who would genuinely be best served at TJ and cannot be well-served anywhere else.

I bolded the piece about school choice determining TJ access because in reality, the previous admissions process did just that. If you were at a center school, you had an EXCELLENT chance to get in for various reasons, and if you didn't, you were likely out of luck. The number of structural advantages that center schools had under the previous process goes far beyond just having more AAP students - you had entire communities that prioritized the TJ process for years and helped each other with navigating it for years. The new admissions process gives every interested student a chance to believe that they might be selected and afforded the advanced opportunities.

If the new admission process provides better opportunity for all kids, then there is no need to punish the kids who happened to default center school as they weren’t aware it would hurt their TJ chances right?

I would not have had an additional experience factor for “attends underrepresented school” on top of the 1.5% allocation. That was a bridge too far, I thought.

[Anonymous]

I argue that low SEN kids who go to poor middle schools purely due to circumstances of birth shouldn’t be punished for having too many barriers to achieving Geometry by 8th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's over, the court has spoken. All tiger moms get back in your cages and settle down.

It's not over. The S Ct only said TJ can seat the class of 2026. The case hasn't been decided on the merits.

Yeah, but the writing is on the wall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's over, the court has spoken. All tiger moms get back in your cages and settle down.

It's not over. The S Ct only said TJ can seat the class of 2026. The case hasn't been decided on the merits.

It doesn't look good. The two illegitimate justices Kavanaugh and Barret will use this to get on the good side of chevy chase. Discriminating against another minority group is fine for them. But guns, Jesus, or abortions? Those are red lines for those two nuts.

[Anonymous]

I like the idea of requiring Geometry, but removing the barriers to taking 7th grade Algebra. The problem with the current process is that a kid can get As in M7H and the first half of Algebra by using rote process and without having a strong understanding of the math. The second half of Algebra as well as Geometry are more conceptual and require more of a leap. Earning As in both Algebra I Honors and the first half of Geometry Honors would show that a kid is capable of handling TJ math. Earning As in M7H and half of Algebra I doesn't really show any math aptitude. Coupling this with the removal of an objective test and the removal of teacher recommendations means that the TJ panel has no way to identify and weed out kids who are likely to be unsuccessful with the TJ math program.

FCPS could offer free summer bridge programs in the lower SES schools to prepare rising 7th graders for Algebra I. They could also offer support through programs like AVID. There's no reason to gatekeep Algebra I in 7th rather than advise people on the most appropriate level, but ultimately let them choose for themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's funny (and sad) how Asians are mad at African Americans while the number of white students getting in hasn't been impacted.

I think you are interpreting this wrong. I am an asian and I am not mad african americans or whites. In fact, I am happy that more african americans are able to get into TJ. What I am mad at is the process fcps implemented with out thinking through much and in fact going with not so explicit target of cutting down asian students from specific feeder schools without saying race anywhere, but old critiera that was taken out or weightage/points given to new criteria so undermine advantages for specific groups of kids. In the end, they came up with a process that could easily eliminate more deserved students vs others as the new process makes it difficult to identify talent. I would rather be so much happier if they just implemented a lottery for all the qualified candidates as it will be totally unbiased and fair.

it seems more likely because the spots for others have to come from somewhere and with Asians having 70%+ of all spots they were impacted but are still the most well-represented group...

It’s not that I don’t get it. Of course the numbers have to come from somewhere. What I am basically pointing at is the new admission process makes it difficult to identify the STEM talent especially when the writing skills (essay and portrait sheet) gets 2X weightage as compared to entire GPA for all courses put together and on top the unweighted GPA discourages taking advanced courses.

You don’t believe me when I say that my kid probably has equal chances of getting in his feeder school compared to some of his friends who are taking Algebra 2 and even pre-cal in 8th grade. Under the older system with teacher input he would have very little chance. But I still think its unfair for my kid to get selected over his much smarter friends (according my kid), if it actually happens.

All of the kids have to take Honors or AAP Science and Math and at least one other class as an honors class. So their overall GPA included a minimum of three honors classes. I am not sure if electives even have an honors option.

How do you identify STEM talent in 8th grade without including the extra curricular activities? Activities that not every kid has access to because of lack of knowledge, parents with time to take them to and from, or the money to afford the activity. Is it fair that I can afford to send my kid to RSM and robotics club while a kid from a lower SES family is needed at home to watch his/her siblings and cannot afford either activity? That kid could be interested in STEM but never got the chance to explore it to figure that out because they were not exposed while my kid got to take art classes, coding classes, robotics, rec sports, and other things in order to figure out what he liked. Requiring that kids have a solid academic background to attend TJ allows kids who are smart and have STEM skills to attend a school that will push them and expose them to activities and courses that they may not have access to.

I know kids who passed all the tests and had teacher recommendations and were accepted to TJ who went to college and became English Teachers. They had all the STEM credentials a kid needed but could careless about STEM. They went to TJ because their parents wanted them to go there because it was the best and they did great. But they were not STEM kids.

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable. I think they should keep the guaranteed seats from each MS school. I think you should be judged against the students at the MS school you choose to attend. You have a choice to attend a Center school or not, if you choose the Center school you are accepting the fact that there will be more competition for those seats. I am fine with bringing back letters of recommendation. But TJ should look like the County. There are plenty of smart, motivated kids at lower SES MS who will do well there and they should have a seat at the school. The old system was structured in a way that made that incredibly hard and favored higher SES families. There is nothing wrong with balancing that out and there is nothing wrong with giving kids who have had far fewer opportunities a chance to discover STEM.

I don't think we should put so much responsibility on 6th graders and their school choice shouldn't determine their chances of getting into TJ. If you really want to do it the right away, there shouldn't be a default placement for AAP kids into center school. Instead, at orientation, counselors should openly tell all the 6th graders about how their school choice hurts or benefits their chances of getting into TJ and kids who knew and care about TJ should really think choose their middle school carefully etc. Most 6th graders aren't even aware of this and probably not thinking about high school prospects in 6th grade. My strong opinion is kids chances shouldn't be hurt by his/her choice of middle school and if it does it is totally unfair.

In our case, we were hardly thinking about TJ in 6th grade and our biggest worry at the time was elem->middle transition and what courses/electives to plan and choose when we had so many options to choose from unlike elementary school. We just went with the default placement. Even if they asked us to make our middle school choice based on TJ, we probably would have paid much attention to it.

The best solution (as you said earlier) is to raise the bar a little higher by making Geo Honors required by 8th grade (make Algebra I HN open to all in 7th) and also require all the core courses in both 7th and 8th grade to be Honors (already open to all), raise the min GPA to 3.75 (required to be maintained by end of 8th or admission can be revoked), consider at least 3 quarters of 8th grade GPA at selection time (slight delay in decisions, but plenty of time as there won't any essays to grade etc) and require at least 1 or 2 STEM electives that were offered at their attending middle school. This should cut down the pool a bit, but ensures that TJ aspirants clearly demonstrate interest in STEM by taking advantage of all the resources available at whatever middle school they are attending. Then, choose the kids via LOTTERY from all the who met the criteria and remained in the pool. It eliminates all the bias, whether it is racial, geographical, teacher/school, financial etc. I know our opinions don't really matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about this?

I think you make some fair points and I could see something like this working if you give it time for Alg 1 to be offered openly everywhere in 7th without an IOWA gatekeeper. But I've never liked the lottery concept because I still think you run into too many kids being left out who would genuinely be best served at TJ and cannot be well-served anywhere else.

I bolded the piece about school choice determining TJ access because in reality, the previous admissions process did just that. If you were at a center school, you had an EXCELLENT chance to get in for various reasons, and if you didn't, you were likely out of luck. The number of structural advantages that center schools had under the previous process goes far beyond just having more AAP students - you had entire communities that prioritized the TJ process for years and helped each other with navigating it for years. The new admissions process gives every interested student a chance to believe that they might be selected and afforded the advanced opportunities.

If the new admission process provides better opportunity for all kids, then there is no need to punish the kids who happened to default center school as they weren’t aware it would hurt their TJ chances right?

I would not have had an additional experience factor for “attends underrepresented school” on top of the 1.5% allocation. That was a bridge too far, I thought.

I agree! This is the most upsetting part of the new process for me. The new process is unfairly punishing AAP kids who are automatically defaulted to center schools and many/most of them aren't aware or might not even be thinking much about TJ in the 6th grade. At the time I didn't even realize that my kid actually had an option to choose base school until he mentioned that one girl from his class was going to base school because her mom works there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's funny (and sad) how Asians are mad at African Americans while the number of white students getting in hasn't been impacted.

I think you are interpreting this wrong. I am an asian and I am not mad african americans or whites. In fact, I am happy that more african americans are able to get into TJ. What I am mad at is the process fcps implemented with out thinking through much and in fact going with not so explicit target of cutting down asian students from specific feeder schools without saying race anywhere, but old critiera that was taken out or weightage/points given to new criteria so undermine advantages for specific groups of kids. In the end, they came up with a process that could easily eliminate more deserved students vs others as the new process makes it difficult to identify talent. I would rather be so much happier if they just implemented a lottery for all the qualified candidates as it will be totally unbiased and fair.

it seems more likely because the spots for others have to come from somewhere and with Asians having 70%+ of all spots they were impacted but are still the most well-represented group...

It’s not that I don’t get it. Of course the numbers have to come from somewhere. What I am basically pointing at is the new admission process makes it difficult to identify the STEM talent especially when the writing skills (essay and portrait sheet) gets 2X weightage as compared to entire GPA for all courses put together and on top the unweighted GPA discourages taking advanced courses.

You don’t believe me when I say that my kid probably has equal chances of getting in his feeder school compared to some of his friends who are taking Algebra 2 and even pre-cal in 8th grade. Under the older system with teacher input he would have very little chance. But I still think its unfair for my kid to get selected over his much smarter friends (according my kid), if it actually happens.

All of the kids have to take Honors or AAP Science and Math and at least one other class as an honors class. So their overall GPA included a minimum of three honors classes. I am not sure if electives even have an honors option.

How do you identify STEM talent in 8th grade without including the extra curricular activities? Activities that not every kid has access to because of lack of knowledge, parents with time to take them to and from, or the money to afford the activity. Is it fair that I can afford to send my kid to RSM and robotics club while a kid from a lower SES family is needed at home to watch his/her siblings and cannot afford either activity? That kid could be interested in STEM but never got the chance to explore it to figure that out because they were not exposed while my kid got to take art classes, coding classes, robotics, rec sports, and other things in order to figure out what he liked. Requiring that kids have a solid academic background to attend TJ allows kids who are smart and have STEM skills to attend a school that will push them and expose them to activities and courses that they may not have access to.

I know kids who passed all the tests and had teacher recommendations and were accepted to TJ who went to college and became English Teachers. They had all the STEM credentials a kid needed but could careless about STEM. They went to TJ because their parents wanted them to go there because it was the best and they did great. But they were not STEM kids.

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable. I think they should keep the guaranteed seats from each MS school. I think you should be judged against the students at the MS school you choose to attend. You have a choice to attend a Center school or not, if you choose the Center school you are accepting the fact that there will be more competition for those seats. I am fine with bringing back letters of recommendation. But TJ should look like the County. There are plenty of smart, motivated kids at lower SES MS who will do well there and they should have a seat at the school. The old system was structured in a way that made that incredibly hard and favored higher SES families. There is nothing wrong with balancing that out and there is nothing wrong with giving kids who have had far fewer opportunities a chance to discover STEM.

I don't think we should put so much responsibility on 6th graders and their school choice shouldn't determine their chances of getting into TJ. If you really want to do it the right away, there shouldn't be a default placement for AAP kids into center school. Instead, at orientation, counselors should openly tell all the 6th graders about how their school choice hurts or benefits their chances of getting into TJ and kids who knew and care about TJ should really think choose their middle school carefully etc. Most 6th graders aren't even aware of this and probably not thinking about high school prospects in 6th grade. My strong opinion is kids chances shouldn't be hurt by his/her choice of middle school and if it does it is totally unfair.

In our case, we were hardly thinking about TJ in 6th grade and our biggest worry at the time was elem->middle transition and what courses/electives to plan and choose when we had so many options to choose from unlike elementary school. We just went with the default placement. Even if they asked us to make our middle school choice based on TJ, we probably would have paid much attention to it.

The best solution (as you said earlier) is to raise the bar a little higher by making Geo Honors required by 8th grade (make Algebra I HN open to all in 7th) and also require all the core courses in both 7th and 8th grade to be Honors (already open to all), raise the min GPA to 3.75 (required to be maintained by end of 8th or admission can be revoked), consider at least 3 quarters of 8th grade GPA at selection time (slight delay in decisions, but plenty of time as there won't any essays to grade etc) and require at least 1 or 2 STEM electives that were offered at their attending middle school. This should cut down the pool a bit, but ensures that TJ aspirants clearly demonstrate interest in STEM by taking advantage of all the resources available at whatever middle school they are attending. Then, choose the kids via LOTTERY from all the who met the criteria and remained in the pool. It eliminates all the bias, whether it is racial, geographical, teacher/school, financial etc. I know our opinions don't really matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about this?

I think you make some fair points and I could see something like this working if you give it time for Alg 1 to be offered openly everywhere in 7th without an IOWA gatekeeper. But I've never liked the lottery concept because I still think you run into too many kids being left out who would genuinely be best served at TJ and cannot be well-served anywhere else.

I bolded the piece about school choice determining TJ access because in reality, the previous admissions process did just that. If you were at a center school, you had an EXCELLENT chance to get in for various reasons, and if you didn't, you were likely out of luck. The number of structural advantages that center schools had under the previous process goes far beyond just having more AAP students - you had entire communities that prioritized the TJ process for years and helped each other with navigating it for years. The new admissions process gives every interested student a chance to believe that they might be selected and afforded the advanced opportunities.

If the new admission process provides better opportunity for all kids, then there is no need to punish the kids who happened to default center school as they weren’t aware it would hurt their TJ chances right?

That was (and is) incredibly unfair and insulting, and it tells you right there that the School Board's priorities aren't about rewarding educational excellence, but pork barrel politics.

They have a large coterie of Democratic activists who'll defend that decision 24/7 (in fact, the education chair of the FCDC is a SAHD who spends most of his waking hours on social media), but Asian parents won't forget the utter disdain and disrespect shown by this School Board.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It's funny (and sad) how Asians are mad at African Americans while the number of white students getting in hasn't been impacted.

I think you are interpreting this wrong. I am an asian and I am not mad african americans or whites. In fact, I am happy that more african americans are able to get into TJ. What I am mad at is the process fcps implemented with out thinking through much and in fact going with not so explicit target of cutting down asian students from specific feeder schools without saying race anywhere, but old critiera that was taken out or weightage/points given to new criteria so undermine advantages for specific groups of kids. In the end, they came up with a process that could easily eliminate more deserved students vs others as the new process makes it difficult to identify talent. I would rather be so much happier if they just implemented a lottery for all the qualified candidates as it will be totally unbiased and fair.

it seems more likely because the spots for others have to come from somewhere and with Asians having 70%+ of all spots they were impacted but are still the most well-represented group...

It’s not that I don’t get it. Of course the numbers have to come from somewhere. What I am basically pointing at is the new admission process makes it difficult to identify the STEM talent especially when the writing skills (essay and portrait sheet) gets 2X weightage as compared to entire GPA for all courses put together and on top the unweighted GPA discourages taking advanced courses.

You don’t believe me when I say that my kid probably has equal chances of getting in his feeder school compared to some of his friends who are taking Algebra 2 and even pre-cal in 8th grade. Under the older system with teacher input he would have very little chance. But I still think its unfair for my kid to get selected over his much smarter friends (according my kid), if it actually happens.

All of the kids have to take Honors or AAP Science and Math and at least one other class as an honors class. So their overall GPA included a minimum of three honors classes. I am not sure if electives even have an honors option.

How do you identify STEM talent in 8th grade without including the extra curricular activities? Activities that not every kid has access to because of lack of knowledge, parents with time to take them to and from, or the money to afford the activity. Is it fair that I can afford to send my kid to RSM and robotics club while a kid from a lower SES family is needed at home to watch his/her siblings and cannot afford either activity? That kid could be interested in STEM but never got the chance to explore it to figure that out because they were not exposed while my kid got to take art classes, coding classes, robotics, rec sports, and other things in order to figure out what he liked. Requiring that kids have a solid academic background to attend TJ allows kids who are smart and have STEM skills to attend a school that will push them and expose them to activities and courses that they may not have access to.

I know kids who passed all the tests and had teacher recommendations and were accepted to TJ who went to college and became English Teachers. They had all the STEM credentials a kid needed but could careless about STEM. They went to TJ because their parents wanted them to go there because it was the best and they did great. But they were not STEM kids.

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable. I think they should keep the guaranteed seats from each MS school. I think you should be judged against the students at the MS school you choose to attend. You have a choice to attend a Center school or not, if you choose the Center school you are accepting the fact that there will be more competition for those seats. I am fine with bringing back letters of recommendation. But TJ should look like the County. There are plenty of smart, motivated kids at lower SES MS who will do well there and they should have a seat at the school. The old system was structured in a way that made that incredibly hard and favored higher SES families. There is nothing wrong with balancing that out and there is nothing wrong with giving kids who have had far fewer opportunities a chance to discover STEM.

I don't think we should put so much responsibility on 6th graders and their school choice shouldn't determine their chances of getting into TJ. If you really want to do it the right away, there shouldn't be a default placement for AAP kids into center school. Instead, at orientation, counselors should openly tell all the 6th graders about how their school choice hurts or benefits their chances of getting into TJ and kids who knew and care about TJ should really think choose their middle school carefully etc. Most 6th graders aren't even aware of this and probably not thinking about high school prospects in 6th grade. My strong opinion is kids chances shouldn't be hurt by his/her choice of middle school and if it does it is totally unfair.

In our case, we were hardly thinking about TJ in 6th grade and our biggest worry at the time was elem->middle transition and what courses/electives to plan and choose when we had so many options to choose from unlike elementary school. We just went with the default placement. Even if they asked us to make our middle school choice based on TJ, we probably would have paid much attention to it.

The best solution (as you said earlier) is to raise the bar a little higher by making Geo Honors required by 8th grade (make Algebra I HN open to all in 7th) and also require all the core courses in both 7th and 8th grade to be Honors (already open to all), raise the min GPA to 3.75 (required to be maintained by end of 8th or admission can be revoked), consider at least 3 quarters of 8th grade GPA at selection time (slight delay in decisions, but plenty of time as there won't any essays to grade etc) and require at least 1 or 2 STEM electives that were offered at their attending middle school. This should cut down the pool a bit, but ensures that TJ aspirants clearly demonstrate interest in STEM by taking advantage of all the resources available at whatever middle school they are attending. Then, choose the kids via LOTTERY from all the who met the criteria and remained in the pool. It eliminates all the bias, whether it is racial, geographical, teacher/school, financial etc. I know our opinions don't really matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about this?

I think you make some fair points and I could see something like this working if you give it time for Alg 1 to be offered openly everywhere in 7th without an IOWA gatekeeper. But I've never liked the lottery concept because I still think you run into too many kids being left out who would genuinely be best served at TJ and cannot be well-served anywhere else.

I bolded the piece about school choice determining TJ access because in reality, the previous admissions process did just that. If you were at a center school, you had an EXCELLENT chance to get in for various reasons, and if you didn't, you were likely out of luck. The number of structural advantages that center schools had under the previous process goes far beyond just having more AAP students - you had entire communities that prioritized the TJ process for years and helped each other with navigating it for years. The new admissions process gives every interested student a chance to believe that they might be selected and afforded the advanced opportunities.

If the new admission process provides better opportunity for all kids, then there is no need to punish the kids who happened to default center school as they weren’t aware it would hurt their TJ chances right?

I would not have had an additional experience factor for “attends underrepresented school” on top of the 1.5% allocation. That was a bridge too far, I thought.

I agree! This is the most upsetting part of the new process for me. The new process is unfairly punishing AAP kids who are automatically defaulted to center schools and many/most of them aren't aware or might not even be thinking much about TJ in the 6th grade. At the time I didn't even realize that my kid actually had an option to choose base school until he mentioned that one girl from his class was going to base school because her mom works there.

Using attending school rather than zoned school is unfair, even without the additional experience factor for underrepresented schools. Obviously, the policy punishes AAP kids who were trying to have a more rigorous education. But, even if one of the goals is to identify and admit gen ed kids who were missed by the AAP process, they're handling it in an unfair manner. Gen Ed kids zoned to a non-AAP middle school will have minimal competition for the allocated seats. Comparable Gen Ed kids whose base school is an AAP center will find it nearly impossible to get admitted to TJ since they have to compete not only with the AAP kids zoned to their school, but also all of the extra AAP kids zoned to other schools but attending the center.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I like the idea of requiring Geometry, but removing the barriers to taking 7th grade Algebra. The problem with the current process is that a kid can get As in M7H and the first half of Algebra by using rote process and without having a strong understanding of the math. The second half of Algebra as well as Geometry are more conceptual and require more of a leap. Earning As in both Algebra I Honors and the first half of Geometry Honors would show that a kid is capable of handling TJ math. Earning As in M7H and half of Algebra I doesn't really show any math aptitude. Coupling this with the removal of an objective test and the removal of teacher recommendations means that the TJ panel has no way to identify and weed out kids who are likely to be unsuccessful with the TJ math program.

FCPS could offer free summer bridge programs in the lower SES schools to prepare rising 7th graders for Algebra I. They could also offer support through programs like AVID. There's no reason to gatekeep Algebra I in 7th rather than advise people on the most appropriate level, but ultimately let them choose for themselves.

I like the idea too but often these opportunities for advanced classes abound at affluent schools and are rare at the less wealthy ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I argue that low SEN kids who go to poor middle schools purely due to circumstances of birth shouldn’t be punished for having too many barriers to achieving Geometry by 8th.

And then you'll argue that they shouldn't be punished with lower grades once they are at TJ because of these past barriers?

And once the grading is flattened or scaled for equity they'll be even less reason than there is at present to continue with TJHSST.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's over, the court has spoken. All tiger moms get back in your cages and settle down.

It's not over. The S Ct only said TJ can seat the class of 2026. The case hasn't been decided on the merits.

50 years of precedent says it's done