Coalition4TJ’s request to block TJ admissions process DENIED 6-3 by Supreme Court

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ECs, Math level, and notable achievements should be considered when evaluating kids against other kids from the same school or any kids in high SES schools against other high SES schools. At a school like Longfellow or Carson, the privileged kid who is winning science olympiad medals, qualifying for AIME, and taking Pre-Calc is much more qualified for TJ than the equally privileged kids who are in Algebra I and haven't accomplished much of anything.

If FCPS keeps the 1.5% seat allocation and only looks at ECs etc. relative to the other kids in the same school, then the playing field should be pretty even.

I'm the loudest pro-reform person on here and I think this is an eminently reasonable take.

The biggest thing that I honestly want to see go away is the scored rubric, which would of course eliminate things like "experience factors" as a hard boost for applicants. Admissions officers at schools all over the country both at universities and at private high schools look at the entire profile of an applicant, develop narratives with respect to their background, achievements, and grades, and make determinations about who would be the best fit for the educational community that they want to create.

And with the seat allotment that you have now, it would be fairly easy to do this for each individual school that you're looking at applicants for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable.

You mean at least Geometry in 8th?

Yes. I think it is fair to ask for a higher level of math at TJ, given the nature of the school. I don't think that taking Algebra 2 or other classes is reasonable. The kids who have those classes are more likely families that have done some type of supplementation and who either knew how to get their kid into Algebra 1 in 6th grade, which is not easy, or whose kids took Geometry in the summer which is less doable for Lower SES families were kids might need to work or watch siblings. The kids who have higher math when they start TJ will be able to move into different math classes more quickly.

Geometry in 8th is reasonable if Algebra in 7th is open to anyone who elects to take it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable.

You mean at least Geometry in 8th?

Yes. I think it is fair to ask for a higher level of math at TJ, given the nature of the school. I don't think that taking Algebra 2 or other classes is reasonable. The kids who have those classes are more likely families that have done some type of supplementation and who either knew how to get their kid into Algebra 1 in 6th grade, which is not easy, or whose kids took Geometry in the summer which is less doable for Lower SES families were kids might need to work or watch siblings. The kids who have higher math when they start TJ will be able to move into different math classes more quickly.

Geometry in 8th is reasonable if Algebra in 7th is open to anyone who elects to take it.

+1000. And this is definitely not the case in all middle schools, and access is very limited in Prince William County.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable.

You mean at least Geometry in 8th?

Yes. I think it is fair to ask for a higher level of math at TJ, given the nature of the school. I don't think that taking Algebra 2 or other classes is reasonable. The kids who have those classes are more likely families that have done some type of supplementation and who either knew how to get their kid into Algebra 1 in 6th grade, which is not easy, or whose kids took Geometry in the summer which is less doable for Lower SES families were kids might need to work or watch siblings. The kids who have higher math when they start TJ will be able to move into different math classes more quickly.

Geometry in 8th is reasonable if Algebra in 7th is open to anyone who elects to take it.

+1000. And this is definitely not the case in all middle schools, and access is very limited in Prince William County.

I believe in all the courses being available to anyone who wants to take provided specific pre-reqs are met and along with teacher recommendation (if jumping the ladder). It should be like high school where every subject has regular and honors versions. Also, should have an option of back out if it becomes too difficult or not keeping the pace.

I always disliked the whole AAP or advanced track even though my kids are in it. I don’t want kids feel entitled just because of some test they take in first grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable.

You mean at least Geometry in 8th?

Yes. I think it is fair to ask for a higher level of math at TJ, given the nature of the school. I don't think that taking Algebra 2 or other classes is reasonable. The kids who have those classes are more likely families that have done some type of supplementation and who either knew how to get their kid into Algebra 1 in 6th grade, which is not easy, or whose kids took Geometry in the summer which is less doable for Lower SES families were kids might need to work or watch siblings. The kids who have higher math when they start TJ will be able to move into different math classes more quickly.

Geometry in 8th is reasonable if Algebra in 7th is open to anyone who elects to take it.

+1000. And this is definitely not the case in all middle schools, and access is very limited in Prince William County.

I believe in all the courses being available to anyone who wants to take provided specific pre-reqs are met and along with teacher recommendation (if jumping the ladder). It should be like high school where every subject has regular and honors versions. Also, should have an option of back out if it becomes too difficult or not keeping the pace.

I always disliked the whole AAP or advanced track even though my kids are in it. I don’t want kids feel entitled just because of some test they take in first grade.

The problem is that you have to be willing to fail a kid for it to work. I don't think you want most 7th graders jumping into algebra. Right now being in advanced math plus test scores act as a gate keeper. I'd personally prefer letting any kid sign up, but having teachers willing to tell kids who can't keep up to transfer out and then failing them if they can't pass exams.

[Anonymous]

It's over, the court has spoken. All tiger moms get back in your cages and settle down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meh, TJ is now just an admission that some of the high schools in FCPS suck so much that it’s considered unfair not to let at least few dozen kids avoid Annandale, Lewis, Justice, and Mount Vernon.

There are brilliant students who live in those areas. Not every family can afford to live in McLean or aspire to.

People can rent in a better school district. If it's that important, rent for a few years to get the kiddos through a better school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meh, TJ is now just an admission that some of the high schools in FCPS suck so much that it’s considered unfair not to let at least few dozen kids avoid Annandale, Lewis, Justice, and Mount Vernon.

There are brilliant students who live in those areas. Not every family can afford to live in McLean or aspire to.

People can rent in a better school district. If it's that important, rent for a few years to get the kiddos through a better school.

Good idea, can you point out any even remotely affordable places to rent in the Langley pyramid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meh, TJ is now just an admission that some of the high schools in FCPS suck so much that it’s considered unfair not to let at least few dozen kids avoid Annandale, Lewis, Justice, and Mount Vernon.

There are brilliant students who live in those areas. Not every family can afford to live in McLean or aspire to.

People can rent in a better school district. If it's that important, rent for a few years to get the kiddos through a better school.

I don't think there's much difference between these schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meh, TJ is now just an admission that some of the high schools in FCPS suck so much that it’s considered unfair not to let at least few dozen kids avoid Annandale, Lewis, Justice, and Mount Vernon.

There are brilliant students who live in those areas. Not every family can afford to live in McLean or aspire to.

People can rent in a better school district. If it's that important, rent for a few years to get the kiddos through a better school.

This would be the literal definition of "pay-to-play".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's funny (and sad) how Asians are mad at African Americans while the number of white students getting in hasn't been impacted.

I think you are interpreting this wrong. I am an asian and I am not mad african americans or whites. In fact, I am happy that more african americans are able to get into TJ. What I am mad at is the process fcps implemented with out thinking through much and in fact going with not so explicit target of cutting down asian students from specific feeder schools without saying race anywhere, but old critiera that was taken out or weightage/points given to new criteria so undermine advantages for specific groups of kids. In the end, they came up with a process that could easily eliminate more deserved students vs others as the new process makes it difficult to identify talent. I would rather be so much happier if they just implemented a lottery for all the qualified candidates as it will be totally unbiased and fair.

it seems more likely because the spots for others have to come from somewhere and with Asians having 70%+ of all spots they were impacted but are still the most well-represented group...

It’s not that I don’t get it. Of course the numbers have to come from somewhere. What I am basically pointing at is the new admission process makes it difficult to identify the STEM talent especially when the writing skills (essay and portrait sheet) gets 2X weightage as compared to entire GPA for all courses put together and on top the unweighted GPA discourages taking advanced courses.

You don’t believe me when I say that my kid probably has equal chances of getting in his feeder school compared to some of his friends who are taking Algebra 2 and even pre-cal in 8th grade. Under the older system with teacher input he would have very little chance. But I still think its unfair for my kid to get selected over his much smarter friends (according my kid), if it actually happens.

All of the kids have to take Honors or AAP Science and Math and at least one other class as an honors class. So their overall GPA included a minimum of three honors classes. I am not sure if electives even have an honors option.

How do you identify STEM talent in 8th grade without including the extra curricular activities? Activities that not every kid has access to because of lack of knowledge, parents with time to take them to and from, or the money to afford the activity. Is it fair that I can afford to send my kid to RSM and robotics club while a kid from a lower SES family is needed at home to watch his/her siblings and cannot afford either activity? That kid could be interested in STEM but never got the chance to explore it to figure that out because they were not exposed while my kid got to take art classes, coding classes, robotics, rec sports, and other things in order to figure out what he liked. Requiring that kids have a solid academic background to attend TJ allows kids who are smart and have STEM skills to attend a school that will push them and expose them to activities and courses that they may not have access to.

I know kids who passed all the tests and had teacher recommendations and were accepted to TJ who went to college and became English Teachers. They had all the STEM credentials a kid needed but could careless about STEM. They went to TJ because their parents wanted them to go there because it was the best and they did great. But they were not STEM kids.

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable. I think they should keep the guaranteed seats from each MS school. I think you should be judged against the students at the MS school you choose to attend. You have a choice to attend a Center school or not, if you choose the Center school you are accepting the fact that there will be more competition for those seats. I am fine with bringing back letters of recommendation. But TJ should look like the County. There are plenty of smart, motivated kids at lower SES MS who will do well there and they should have a seat at the school. The old system was structured in a way that made that incredibly hard and favored higher SES families. There is nothing wrong with balancing that out and there is nothing wrong with giving kids who have had far fewer opportunities a chance to discover STEM.

I don't think we should put so much responsibility on 6th graders and their school choice shouldn't determine their chances of getting into TJ. If you really want to do it the right away, there shouldn't be a default placement for AAP kids into center school. Instead, at orientation, counselors should openly tell all the 6th graders about how their school choice hurts or benefits their chances of getting into TJ and kids who knew and care about TJ should really think choose their middle school carefully etc. Most 6th graders aren't even aware of this and probably not thinking about high school prospects in 6th grade. My strong opinion is kids chances shouldn't be hurt by his/her choice of middle school and if it does it is totally unfair.

In our case, we were hardly thinking about TJ in 6th grade and our biggest worry at the time was elem->middle transition and what courses/electives to plan and choose when we had so many options to choose from unlike elementary school. We just went with the default placement. Even if they asked us to make our middle school choice based on TJ, we probably would have paid much attention to it.

The best solution (as you said earlier) is to raise the bar a little higher by making Geo Honors required by 8th grade (make Algebra I HN open to all in 7th) and also require all the core courses in both 7th and 8th grade to be Honors (already open to all), raise the min GPA to 3.75 (required to be maintained by end of 8th or admission can be revoked), consider at least 3 quarters of 8th grade GPA at selection time (slight delay in decisions, but plenty of time as there won't any essays to grade etc) and require at least 1 or 2 STEM electives that were offered at their attending middle school. This should cut down the pool a bit, but ensures that TJ aspirants clearly demonstrate interest in STEM by taking advantage of all the resources available at whatever middle school they are attending. Then, choose the kids via LOTTERY from all the who met the criteria and remained in the pool. It eliminates all the bias, whether it is racial, geographical, teacher/school, financial etc. I know our opinions don't really matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable.

You mean at least Geometry in 8th?

Yes. I think it is fair to ask for a higher level of math at TJ, given the nature of the school. I don't think that taking Algebra 2 or other classes is reasonable. The kids who have those classes are more likely families that have done some type of supplementation and who either knew how to get their kid into Algebra 1 in 6th grade, which is not easy, or whose kids took Geometry in the summer which is less doable for Lower SES families were kids might need to work or watch siblings. The kids who have higher math when they start TJ will be able to move into different math classes more quickly.

Geometry in 8th is reasonable if Algebra in 7th is open to anyone who elects to take it.

+1000. And this is definitely not the case in all middle schools, and access is very limited in Prince William County.

My kid graduated from TJ as a PWC student and had no problem taking Algebra I in the 7th grade and Geometry in the 8th grade and that was several years ago and I would assume it is easier now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's funny (and sad) how Asians are mad at African Americans while the number of white students getting in hasn't been impacted.

I think you are interpreting this wrong. I am an asian and I am not mad african americans or whites. In fact, I am happy that more african americans are able to get into TJ. What I am mad at is the process fcps implemented with out thinking through much and in fact going with not so explicit target of cutting down asian students from specific feeder schools without saying race anywhere, but old critiera that was taken out or weightage/points given to new criteria so undermine advantages for specific groups of kids. In the end, they came up with a process that could easily eliminate more deserved students vs others as the new process makes it difficult to identify talent. I would rather be so much happier if they just implemented a lottery for all the qualified candidates as it will be totally unbiased and fair.

it seems more likely because the spots for others have to come from somewhere and with Asians having 70%+ of all spots they were impacted but are still the most well-represented group...

It’s not that I don’t get it. Of course the numbers have to come from somewhere. What I am basically pointing at is the new admission process makes it difficult to identify the STEM talent especially when the writing skills (essay and portrait sheet) gets 2X weightage as compared to entire GPA for all courses put together and on top the unweighted GPA discourages taking advanced courses.

You don’t believe me when I say that my kid probably has equal chances of getting in his feeder school compared to some of his friends who are taking Algebra 2 and even pre-cal in 8th grade. Under the older system with teacher input he would have very little chance. But I still think its unfair for my kid to get selected over his much smarter friends (according my kid), if it actually happens.

All of the kids have to take Honors or AAP Science and Math and at least one other class as an honors class. So their overall GPA included a minimum of three honors classes. I am not sure if electives even have an honors option.

How do you identify STEM talent in 8th grade without including the extra curricular activities? Activities that not every kid has access to because of lack of knowledge, parents with time to take them to and from, or the money to afford the activity. Is it fair that I can afford to send my kid to RSM and robotics club while a kid from a lower SES family is needed at home to watch his/her siblings and cannot afford either activity? That kid could be interested in STEM but never got the chance to explore it to figure that out because they were not exposed while my kid got to take art classes, coding classes, robotics, rec sports, and other things in order to figure out what he liked. Requiring that kids have a solid academic background to attend TJ allows kids who are smart and have STEM skills to attend a school that will push them and expose them to activities and courses that they may not have access to.

I know kids who passed all the tests and had teacher recommendations and were accepted to TJ who went to college and became English Teachers. They had all the STEM credentials a kid needed but could careless about STEM. They went to TJ because their parents wanted them to go there because it was the best and they did great. But they were not STEM kids.

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable. I think they should keep the guaranteed seats from each MS school. I think you should be judged against the students at the MS school you choose to attend. You have a choice to attend a Center school or not, if you choose the Center school you are accepting the fact that there will be more competition for those seats. I am fine with bringing back letters of recommendation. But TJ should look like the County. There are plenty of smart, motivated kids at lower SES MS who will do well there and they should have a seat at the school. The old system was structured in a way that made that incredibly hard and favored higher SES families. There is nothing wrong with balancing that out and there is nothing wrong with giving kids who have had far fewer opportunities a chance to discover STEM.

I don't think we should put so much responsibility on 6th graders and their school choice shouldn't determine their chances of getting into TJ. If you really want to do it the right away, there shouldn't be a default placement for AAP kids into center school. Instead, at orientation, counselors should openly tell all the 6th graders about how their school choice hurts or benefits their chances of getting into TJ and kids who knew and care about TJ should really think choose their middle school carefully etc. Most 6th graders aren't even aware of this and probably not thinking about high school prospects in 6th grade. My strong opinion is kids chances shouldn't be hurt by his/her choice of middle school and if it does it is totally unfair.

In our case, we were hardly thinking about TJ in 6th grade and our biggest worry at the time was elem->middle transition and what courses/electives to plan and choose when we had so many options to choose from unlike elementary school. We just went with the default placement. Even if they asked us to make our middle school choice based on TJ, we probably would have paid much attention to it.

The best solution (as you said earlier) is to raise the bar a little higher by making Geo Honors required by 8th grade (make Algebra I HN open to all in 7th) and also require all the core courses in both 7th and 8th grade to be Honors (already open to all), raise the min GPA to 3.75 (required to be maintained by end of 8th or admission can be revoked), consider at least 3 quarters of 8th grade GPA at selection time (slight delay in decisions, but plenty of time as there won't any essays to grade etc) and require at least 1 or 2 STEM electives that were offered at their attending middle school. This should cut down the pool a bit, but ensures that TJ aspirants clearly demonstrate interest in STEM by taking advantage of all the resources available at whatever middle school they are attending. Then, choose the kids via LOTTERY from all the who met the criteria and remained in the pool. It eliminates all the bias, whether it is racial, geographical, teacher/school, financial etc. I know our opinions don't really matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about this?

I think you make some fair points and I could see something like this working if you give it time for Alg 1 to be offered openly everywhere in 7th without an IOWA gatekeeper. But I've never liked the lottery concept because I still think you run into too many kids being left out who would genuinely be best served at TJ and cannot be well-served anywhere else.

I bolded the piece about school choice determining TJ access because in reality, the previous admissions process did just that. If you were at a center school, you had an EXCELLENT chance to get in for various reasons, and if you didn't, you were likely out of luck. The number of structural advantages that center schools had under the previous process goes far beyond just having more AAP students - you had entire communities that prioritized the TJ process for years and helped each other with navigating it for years. The new admissions process gives every interested student a chance to believe that they might be selected and afforded the advanced opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable.

You mean at least Geometry in 8th?

Yes. I think it is fair to ask for a higher level of math at TJ, given the nature of the school. I don't think that taking Algebra 2 or other classes is reasonable. The kids who have those classes are more likely families that have done some type of supplementation and who either knew how to get their kid into Algebra 1 in 6th grade, which is not easy, or whose kids took Geometry in the summer which is less doable for Lower SES families were kids might need to work or watch siblings. The kids who have higher math when they start TJ will be able to move into different math classes more quickly.

Geometry in 8th is reasonable if Algebra in 7th is open to anyone who elects to take it.

+1000. And this is definitely not the case in all middle schools, and access is very limited in Prince William County.

My kid graduated from TJ as a PWC student and had no problem taking Algebra I in the 7th grade and Geometry in the 8th grade and that was several years ago and I would assume it is easier now.

It is some of restricted in FCPS. The kid needs get passed 'advanced' 7th grade math SOL (which is pre-algebra) and score at least 91 percentile on IOWA test (which is also pre-algebra). However, only kids in AAP or Advanced Math are allowed to take either the required SOL or IOWA test, which makes it somewhat restricted. FCPS could remove these test requirements, but I can honestly say that if the kid doesn't understand pre-algebra well enough, Algebra I HN is going to be very difficult and Geo HN even more difficult in 8th grade. My kid scored almost perfect score in Algebra I, but is barely managing an A in Geometry HN and saying its significantly more difficult than Algebra I which was a cake walk for him. However, I would still think FCPS should make Algebra I HN open to all and let the kids decide if they can handle it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's funny (and sad) how Asians are mad at African Americans while the number of white students getting in hasn't been impacted.

I think you are interpreting this wrong. I am an asian and I am not mad african americans or whites. In fact, I am happy that more african americans are able to get into TJ. What I am mad at is the process fcps implemented with out thinking through much and in fact going with not so explicit target of cutting down asian students from specific feeder schools without saying race anywhere, but old critiera that was taken out or weightage/points given to new criteria so undermine advantages for specific groups of kids. In the end, they came up with a process that could easily eliminate more deserved students vs others as the new process makes it difficult to identify talent. I would rather be so much happier if they just implemented a lottery for all the qualified candidates as it will be totally unbiased and fair.

it seems more likely because the spots for others have to come from somewhere and with Asians having 70%+ of all spots they were impacted but are still the most well-represented group...

It’s not that I don’t get it. Of course the numbers have to come from somewhere. What I am basically pointing at is the new admission process makes it difficult to identify the STEM talent especially when the writing skills (essay and portrait sheet) gets 2X weightage as compared to entire GPA for all courses put together and on top the unweighted GPA discourages taking advanced courses.

You don’t believe me when I say that my kid probably has equal chances of getting in his feeder school compared to some of his friends who are taking Algebra 2 and even pre-cal in 8th grade. Under the older system with teacher input he would have very little chance. But I still think its unfair for my kid to get selected over his much smarter friends (according my kid), if it actually happens.

All of the kids have to take Honors or AAP Science and Math and at least one other class as an honors class. So their overall GPA included a minimum of three honors classes. I am not sure if electives even have an honors option.

How do you identify STEM talent in 8th grade without including the extra curricular activities? Activities that not every kid has access to because of lack of knowledge, parents with time to take them to and from, or the money to afford the activity. Is it fair that I can afford to send my kid to RSM and robotics club while a kid from a lower SES family is needed at home to watch his/her siblings and cannot afford either activity? That kid could be interested in STEM but never got the chance to explore it to figure that out because they were not exposed while my kid got to take art classes, coding classes, robotics, rec sports, and other things in order to figure out what he liked. Requiring that kids have a solid academic background to attend TJ allows kids who are smart and have STEM skills to attend a school that will push them and expose them to activities and courses that they may not have access to.

I know kids who passed all the tests and had teacher recommendations and were accepted to TJ who went to college and became English Teachers. They had all the STEM credentials a kid needed but could careless about STEM. They went to TJ because their parents wanted them to go there because it was the best and they did great. But they were not STEM kids.

I do think the bar should be raised and that kids should need to have Geometry and Algebra 1 in MS to apply, I don't think that is unreasonable. I think they should keep the guaranteed seats from each MS school. I think you should be judged against the students at the MS school you choose to attend. You have a choice to attend a Center school or not, if you choose the Center school you are accepting the fact that there will be more competition for those seats. I am fine with bringing back letters of recommendation. But TJ should look like the County. There are plenty of smart, motivated kids at lower SES MS who will do well there and they should have a seat at the school. The old system was structured in a way that made that incredibly hard and favored higher SES families. There is nothing wrong with balancing that out and there is nothing wrong with giving kids who have had far fewer opportunities a chance to discover STEM.

I don't think we should put so much responsibility on 6th graders and their school choice shouldn't determine their chances of getting into TJ. If you really want to do it the right away, there shouldn't be a default placement for AAP kids into center school. Instead, at orientation, counselors should openly tell all the 6th graders about how their school choice hurts or benefits their chances of getting into TJ and kids who knew and care about TJ should really think choose their middle school carefully etc. Most 6th graders aren't even aware of this and probably not thinking about high school prospects in 6th grade. My strong opinion is kids chances shouldn't be hurt by his/her choice of middle school and if it does it is totally unfair.

In our case, we were hardly thinking about TJ in 6th grade and our biggest worry at the time was elem->middle transition and what courses/electives to plan and choose when we had so many options to choose from unlike elementary school. We just went with the default placement. Even if they asked us to make our middle school choice based on TJ, we probably would have paid much attention to it.

The best solution (as you said earlier) is to raise the bar a little higher by making Geo Honors required by 8th grade (make Algebra I HN open to all in 7th) and also require all the core courses in both 7th and 8th grade to be Honors (already open to all), raise the min GPA to 3.75 (required to be maintained by end of 8th or admission can be revoked), consider at least 3 quarters of 8th grade GPA at selection time (slight delay in decisions, but plenty of time as there won't any essays to grade etc) and require at least 1 or 2 STEM electives that were offered at their attending middle school. This should cut down the pool a bit, but ensures that TJ aspirants clearly demonstrate interest in STEM by taking advantage of all the resources available at whatever middle school they are attending. Then, choose the kids via LOTTERY from all the who met the criteria and remained in the pool. It eliminates all the bias, whether it is racial, geographical, teacher/school, financial etc. I know our opinions don't really matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about this?

I think you make some fair points and I could see something like this working if you give it time for Alg 1 to be offered openly everywhere in 7th without an IOWA gatekeeper. But I've never liked the lottery concept because I still think you run into too many kids being left out who would genuinely be best served at TJ and cannot be well-served anywhere else.

I bolded the piece about school choice determining TJ access because in reality, the previous admissions process did just that. If you were at a center school, you had an EXCELLENT chance to get in for various reasons, and if you didn't, you were likely out of luck. The number of structural advantages that center schools had under the previous process goes far beyond just having more AAP students - you had entire communities that prioritized the TJ process for years and helped each other with navigating it for years. The new admissions process gives every interested student a chance to believe that they might be selected and afforded the advanced opportunities.

I personally don't like the lottery as well. But, you can't really achieve diversity with out bias when you have any sort of selection criteria and lottery is only real solution. Even with the current process, a school like Carson will have about 80% kids make 3.5 GPA (unweighted) or more. And then, essay writing part gets 2X weightage compared to entire middle school GPA. So, kids success could very well be determined by how well they know the topic that was asked and if they are able to express themselves well with in 1hr allocated. Excluding the kids who got in via other factors, can you honestly tell if the current criteria is going to pick top 20-30 kids from Carson among 300 or so kids who apply? I definitely don't.

I knew at least couple kids who I was sure would get into TJ but couldn't last year. I personally knew one of the kids and she was really good (I mean really good) at math and we used to have all sort of tech/science conversations and got really good GPA. The kid said essay could have hurt the chances as she might not have expressed well. I am sure she will do quite well at base HS, but thats not the point here. My current 8th grader DS said he didn't know the science essay topic and couldn't really write much, but he got very good GPA and excellent at math/tech, but I really doubt he will get in as he writing isn't his strongest skill especially if he doesn't know the topic(s) - we don't really mind though!. So, the bottomline is, I don't think current selection process works well in filtering the smartest candidates and it is probably not much different than lottery anyway. At least, we raised the bar a bit, we will be a little more sure of picking the better candidates.