Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Have you been noticing a lot of trans women in the bathrooms with you lately? If that happened, what would you do? Scream at them or run away?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Because transwomen will get killed.

Transwomen get killed for using the men’s bathroom? Has this actually ever happened?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Have you been noticing a lot of trans women in the bathrooms with you lately? If that happened, what would you do? Scream at them or run away?

If I notice any penises in the bathroom that is reserved for females, I would probably leave because that would make me uncomfortable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Have you been noticing a lot of trans women in the bathrooms with you lately? If that happened, what would you do? Scream at them or run away?

If I notice any penises in the bathroom that is reserved for females, I would probably leave because that would make me uncomfortable.

And that, right there is the crux of it. Men who feel like women want to be able to use the women's restroom. If you, as a woman, are uncomfortable, then you are a transphobe and a bigot. The desire of trans women to feel comfortable supercede your desires. Extend this to the rights of trans women to compete in women's sports or attend women's prisons or enter any other female-only spaces. This is not a social construct. It's biology and some women don't believe it's OK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Because transwomen will get killed.

Transwomen get killed for using the men’s bathroom? Has this actually ever happened?

Trans women and trans men have been killed for being trans. Forcing them to use bathrooms for genders they don't present as outs them to everyone who sees them in the bathroom or going in and out of the bathroom. So bathroom laws do 2 things that make trans people less safe: they add to the transphobic environment (every time an anti lgbtq law is proposed, it adds fuel to the fire), and it lets people know, here's a trans person. If they're open about being trans, the second part might not be a big deal. But if they're private about being trans, that's not good for their mental health or safety.

This is an actual problem, not a hypothetical problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Have you been noticing a lot of trans women in the bathrooms with you lately? If that happened, what would you do? Scream at them or run away?

If I notice any penises in the bathroom that is reserved for females, I would probably leave because that would make me uncomfortable.

I said trans women, not penises. But interesting change. How many penises have you seen that ran you out of the bathroom in this way? You obviously think it’s happening?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Have you been noticing a lot of trans women in the bathrooms with you lately? If that happened, what would you do? Scream at them or run away?

If I notice any penises in the bathroom that is reserved for females, I would probably leave because that would make me uncomfortable.

I said trans women, not penises. But interesting change. How many penises have you seen that ran you out of the bathroom in this way? You obviously think it’s happening?

I've never seen anyone else's genitals in the women's restrooms except at the diaper changing station. I'd be upset at seeing anyone's genitals, male or female, cis or trans. I don't think that's the issue, because unless you're peeping, you're not seeing that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Have you been noticing a lot of trans women in the bathrooms with you lately? If that happened, what would you do? Scream at them or run away?

If I notice any penises in the bathroom that is reserved for females, I would probably leave because that would make me uncomfortable.

I said trans women, not penises. But interesting change. How many penises have you seen that ran you out of the bathroom in this way? You obviously think it’s happening?

I've never seen anyone else's genitals in the women's restrooms except at the diaper changing station. I'd be upset at seeing anyone's genitals, male or female, cis or trans. I don't think that's the issue, because unless you're peeping, you're not seeing that.

17:19 here. I meant to +1 because I agree with PP. I don't want to seem like I'm arguing with the quoted post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Have you been noticing a lot of trans women in the bathrooms with you lately? If that happened, what would you do? Scream at them or run away?

If I notice any penises in the bathroom that is reserved for females, I would probably leave because that would make me uncomfortable.

I said trans women, not penises. But interesting change. How many penises have you seen that ran you out of the bathroom in this way? You obviously think it’s happening?

I've never seen anyone else's genitals in the women's restrooms except at the diaper changing station. I'd be upset at seeing anyone's genitals, male or female, cis or trans. I don't think that's the issue, because unless you're peeping, you're not seeing that.

Exactly. You go in a stall and do your business. My college had coed bathrooms. I could not care less if I’m peeing or showering next to a man or a woman or someone who is non-binary as long as I’m able to close a door or a shower curtain.

[Anonymous]

The women on the Penn State swim team had to accept that Lia Thomas’ penis was on full display.

“Thomas, 22, who spent the previous three years swimming with the men’s team before she began transitioning to a woman, has created an uneasy environment in the locker room, as she still retains her biologically male genitalia — which are sometimes exposed — and is attracted to women, one teammate told the Daily Mail in an interview.”

https://nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

So it's an irrational fear of penises.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Have you been noticing a lot of trans women in the bathrooms with you lately? If that happened, what would you do? Scream at them or run away?

If I notice any penises in the bathroom that is reserved for females, I would probably leave because that would make me uncomfortable.

What bathrooms do you use where people have their genitals on display?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Have you been noticing a lot of trans women in the bathrooms with you lately? If that happened, what would you do? Scream at them or run away?

If I notice any penises in the bathroom that is reserved for females, I would probably leave because that would make me uncomfortable.

I said trans women, not penises. But interesting change. How many penises have you seen that ran you out of the bathroom in this way? You obviously think it’s happening?

I've never seen anyone else's genitals in the women's restrooms except at the diaper changing station. I'd be upset at seeing anyone's genitals, male or female, cis or trans. I don't think that's the issue, because unless you're peeping, you're not seeing that.

Exactly. You go in a stall and do your business. My college had coed bathrooms. I could not care less if I’m peeing or showering next to a man or a woman or someone who is non-binary as long as I’m able to close a door or a shower curtain.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The women on the Penn State swim team had to accept that Lia Thomas’ penis was on full display.

“Thomas, 22, who spent the previous three years swimming with the men’s team before she began transitioning to a woman, has created an uneasy environment in the locker room, as she still retains her biologically male genitalia — which are sometimes exposed — and is attracted to women, one teammate told the Daily Mail in an interview.”

https://nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/

Penn State, huh?

[Anonymous]

Gaines initial interview - before she started working the RWNJ press:


She never felt uncomfortable around Lia.