Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

I love how the topic changes so quickly back to sports as soon as someone admits the bathroom isn’t in fact an issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love how the topic changes so quickly back to sports as soon as someone admits the bathroom isn’t in fact an issue.

More gaslighting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how the topic changes so quickly back to sports as soon as someone admits the bathroom isn’t in fact an issue.

More gaslighting.

Right. As opposed to switching from peeing to SPORTS isn’t true gaslighting. The gaslighters are always claiming others do it. It’s pathetic.

[Anonymous]

Women are saying they are uncomfortable with men in bathrooms. This isn’t about sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women are saying they are uncomfortable with men in bathrooms. This isn’t about sports.

Misgendering

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Because transwomen will get killed.

Transwomen get killed for using the men’s bathroom? Has this actually ever happened?

Trans women and trans men have been killed for being trans. Forcing them to use bathrooms for genders they don't present as outs them to everyone who sees them in the bathroom or going in and out of the bathroom. So bathroom laws do 2 things that make trans people less safe: they add to the transphobic environment (every time an anti lgbtq law is proposed, it adds fuel to the fire), and it lets people know, here's a trans person. If they're open about being trans, the second part might not be a big deal. But if they're private about being trans, that's not good for their mental health or safety.

This is an actual problem, not a hypothetical problem.

So no transwoman had ever been killed for using the men’s room. It IS a hypothetical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Because transwomen will get killed.

Transwomen get killed for using the men’s bathroom? Has this actually ever happened?

Trans women and trans men have been killed for being trans. Forcing them to use bathrooms for genders they don't present as outs them to everyone who sees them in the bathroom or going in and out of the bathroom. So bathroom laws do 2 things that make trans people less safe: they add to the transphobic environment (every time an anti lgbtq law is proposed, it adds fuel to the fire), and it lets people know, here's a trans person. If they're open about being trans, the second part might not be a big deal. But if they're private about being trans, that's not good for their mental health or safety.

This is an actual problem, not a hypothetical problem.

So no transwoman had ever been killed for using the men’s room. It IS a hypothetical.

You know those kids you claim you want to protect? When they have bathroom and locker room restrictions, they’re sexually assaulted at a higher rate. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/143/6/e20182902/76816/School-Restroom-and-Locker-Room-Restrictions-and

They may not have been murdered, but they have been harassed, attacked and sexually assaulted in bathrooms. Trans people have higher rates of UTIs because they restrict their bathroom usage because of fear of harassment. DS has had that issue. It sucks. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-survey/u-s-transgender-people-harassed-in-public-restrooms-landmark-survey-idUSKBN13X0BK

Women haven’t been attacked by trans people in bathrooms. Sexual assaults haven’t gone up due to trans people having access to bathrooms that match their gender identity. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

So studies show there are real negative consequences and risk of physical and emotional harm for trans people forced to use the bathroom that doesn’t match their gender identity. Studies also show there isn’t a higher risk of sexual assault to cis women who use bathrooms with trans women. There’s no reason to have bathroom bans/restrictions other than bigotry and transphobia. I didn’t say people are being killed, and that may be an overstatement. However, people are being assaulted, and it’s trans people not cis women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Because transwomen will get killed.

Transwomen get killed for using the men’s bathroom? Has this actually ever happened?

Trans women and trans men have been killed for being trans. Forcing them to use bathrooms for genders they don't present as outs them to everyone who sees them in the bathroom or going in and out of the bathroom. So bathroom laws do 2 things that make trans people less safe: they add to the transphobic environment (every time an anti lgbtq law is proposed, it adds fuel to the fire), and it lets people know, here's a trans person. If they're open about being trans, the second part might not be a big deal. But if they're private about being trans, that's not good for their mental health or safety.

This is an actual problem, not a hypothetical problem.

So no transwoman had ever been killed for using the men’s room. It IS a hypothetical.

You know those kids you claim you want to protect? When they have bathroom and locker room restrictions, they’re sexually assaulted at a higher rate. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/143/6/e20182902/76816/School-Restroom-and-Locker-Room-Restrictions-and

They may not have been murdered, but they have been harassed, attacked and sexually assaulted in bathrooms. Trans people have higher rates of UTIs because they restrict their bathroom usage because of fear of harassment. DS has had that issue. It sucks. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-survey/u-s-transgender-people-harassed-in-public-restrooms-landmark-survey-idUSKBN13X0BK

Women haven’t been attacked by trans people in bathrooms. Sexual assaults haven’t gone up due to trans people having access to bathrooms that match their gender identity. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

So studies show there are real negative consequences and risk of physical and emotional harm for trans people forced to use the bathroom that doesn’t match their gender identity. Studies also show there isn’t a higher risk of sexual assault to cis women who use bathrooms with trans women. There’s no reason to have bathroom bans/restrictions other than bigotry and transphobia. I didn’t say people are being killed, and that may be an overstatement. However, people are being assaulted, and it’s trans people not cis women.

You know that’s nonsense, right?

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/05/08/woman-sexually-assaulted-bathroom-ala-moana-center/

https://www.foxla.com/news/16-year-old-girl-attacked-inside-grocery-store-bathroom-in-south-whittier

https://youtu.be/G1kYUhJ5nco

https://www.wesh.com/article/rape-cocoa-beach-park-bathroom/43645247

https://www.statesboroherald.com/local/trial-for-man-accused-of-attacking-woman-in-wal-mart-bathroom-begins/

and…..

https://nypost.com/2023/06/01/oklahoma-parent-files-suit-after-daughter-was-beaten-by-trans-student/

https://www2.cbn.com/news/us/education-dept-investigates-allegation-5-year-old-girl-sexually-assaulted-transgender-boy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Because transwomen will get killed.

Transwomen get killed for using the men’s bathroom? Has this actually ever happened?

Trans women and trans men have been killed for being trans. Forcing them to use bathrooms for genders they don't present as outs them to everyone who sees them in the bathroom or going in and out of the bathroom. So bathroom laws do 2 things that make trans people less safe: they add to the transphobic environment (every time an anti lgbtq law is proposed, it adds fuel to the fire), and it lets people know, here's a trans person. If they're open about being trans, the second part might not be a big deal. But if they're private about being trans, that's not good for their mental health or safety.

This is an actual problem, not a hypothetical problem.

So no transwoman had ever been killed for using the men’s room. It IS a hypothetical.

You know those kids you claim you want to protect? When they have bathroom and locker room restrictions, they’re sexually assaulted at a higher rate. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/143/6/e20182902/76816/School-Restroom-and-Locker-Room-Restrictions-and

They may not have been murdered, but they have been harassed, attacked and sexually assaulted in bathrooms. Trans people have higher rates of UTIs because they restrict their bathroom usage because of fear of harassment. DS has had that issue. It sucks. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-survey/u-s-transgender-people-harassed-in-public-restrooms-landmark-survey-idUSKBN13X0BK

Women haven’t been attacked by trans people in bathrooms. Sexual assaults haven’t gone up due to trans people having access to bathrooms that match their gender identity. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

So studies show there are real negative consequences and risk of physical and emotional harm for trans people forced to use the bathroom that doesn’t match their gender identity. Studies also show there isn’t a higher risk of sexual assault to cis women who use bathrooms with trans women. There’s no reason to have bathroom bans/restrictions other than bigotry and transphobia. I didn’t say people are being killed, and that may be an overstatement. However, people are being assaulted, and it’s trans people not cis women.

You know that’s nonsense, right?

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/05/08/woman-sexually-assaulted-bathroom-ala-moana-center/

https://www.foxla.com/news/16-year-old-girl-attacked-inside-grocery-store-bathroom-in-south-whittier

https://youtu.be/G1kYUhJ5nco

https://www.wesh.com/article/rape-cocoa-beach-park-bathroom/43645247

https://www.statesboroherald.com/local/trial-for-man-accused-of-attacking-woman-in-wal-mart-bathroom-begins/

and…..

https://nypost.com/2023/06/01/oklahoma-parent-files-suit-after-daughter-was-beaten-by-trans-student/

https://www2.cbn.com/news/us/education-dept-investigates-allegation-5-year-old-girl-sexually-assaulted-transgender-boy

Obviously I meant cis women aren’t being attacked by trans women in bathrooms due to allowing trans women being allowed to use the same bathroom. I didn’t click every link but the first several seem to be attacks by cis men and have nothing to do with bathroom laws that I can tell. It’s just more proof that you’re having trouble finding examples of trans women attacking cis women in bathrooms because it’s such a rare occurrence.

The last one, maybe but the way it’s written and the source seem shady AF. It’s the only one that seems to be an attack that may have been prevented by having a bathroom restriction in place for trans students.

The next to last link is an attack of a cis girl by a trans girl in a bathroom where there was a ban in place. It doesn’t appear to be sexual in the article, and the article is biased, so who knows if there were underlying issues or if it was a random attack or crime of opportunity.

I’m very sorry for anyone who is attacked. My heart goes out to people who suffer from violent crimes, especially sexual assault (I’ve been there, it’s horrible to experience). I wish sex crimes were taken more seriously. Banning trans women from using women’s bathrooms doesn’t decrease sex crimes against cis women, but it does increase violent crime and other types of harassment against trans people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Because transwomen will get killed.

Transwomen get killed for using the men’s bathroom? Has this actually ever happened?

Trans women and trans men have been killed for being trans. Forcing them to use bathrooms for genders they don't present as outs them to everyone who sees them in the bathroom or going in and out of the bathroom. So bathroom laws do 2 things that make trans people less safe: they add to the transphobic environment (every time an anti lgbtq law is proposed, it adds fuel to the fire), and it lets people know, here's a trans person. If they're open about being trans, the second part might not be a big deal. But if they're private about being trans, that's not good for their mental health or safety.

This is an actual problem, not a hypothetical problem.

So no transwoman had ever been killed for using the men’s room. It IS a hypothetical.

You know those kids you claim you want to protect? When they have bathroom and locker room restrictions, they’re sexually assaulted at a higher rate. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/143/6/e20182902/76816/School-Restroom-and-Locker-Room-Restrictions-and

They may not have been murdered, but they have been harassed, attacked and sexually assaulted in bathrooms. Trans people have higher rates of UTIs because they restrict their bathroom usage because of fear of harassment. DS has had that issue. It sucks. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-survey/u-s-transgender-people-harassed-in-public-restrooms-landmark-survey-idUSKBN13X0BK

Women haven’t been attacked by trans people in bathrooms. Sexual assaults haven’t gone up due to trans people having access to bathrooms that match their gender identity. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

So studies show there are real negative consequences and risk of physical and emotional harm for trans people forced to use the bathroom that doesn’t match their gender identity. Studies also show there isn’t a higher risk of sexual assault to cis women who use bathrooms with trans women. There’s no reason to have bathroom bans/restrictions other than bigotry and transphobia. I didn’t say people are being killed, and that may be an overstatement. However, people are being assaulted, and it’s trans people not cis women.

So once again, the claim that segregating bathrooms by sex will result in transwomen being killed is false. Thanks for confirming.

[Anonymous]

There is a portion of men who seek out women’s bathrooms to feel good, peep, and masturbate. Remember hearing about the hidden cameras? Those are from men. The number of men who will use these tossed out norms like “bathrooms are for women” to do perverse things is going to go UP when they have more access. I’ve never said it’s trans women who are the problem. The problem is that if women are no longer allowed to ask a male-presenting person from leaving the women’s bathroom because they’re seen as transphobic, then ANY man with a perverted agenda will have more access. All this data focusing on trans women is irrelevant; it’s that removing the norm to prevent men with dirty minds from accessing women’s only spaces is Dani for women.

If you are a female presenting person, no one is going to know and the vast majority of women won’t care. But to continue to hammer that anyone can wake up any day and be a women will put women at risk.

[Anonymous]

Dani = dangerous

[jsteele]

As Elon Musk might say, "concerning". This group dedicated $6 million for Facebook ads airing many of the same points being made in this thread in support of women's rights, but they are actually an anti-women rights group:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/rightwing-group-anti-trans-messaging-swing-states-womens-bill-of-rights

But the Women’s Bill of Rights is a weapon in a war against gender equity being waged by a conservative non-profit women’s group. Independent Women’s Voice, or IWV, lobbies against the equal rights amendment, criticizes public school curriculum and opposes government-funded parental leave. Recently, they have turned their resources to fighting transgender rights.

...

When Facebook users follow a link to sign the Women’s Bill of Rights, they are taken to a website that promotes traditional gender roles and characterizes transgender people as a threat to women’s success and safety. The page includes a copy of the bill itself, which insists “males and females possess unique and immutable biological differences” and “biological differences … warrant the creation of separate social, educational, athletic, or other spaces in order to ensure safety”.

Obviously I'm not in a position to tell anyone else, let alone women, what they should or shouldn't fear. But, perhaps it might be worthwhile to consider how much of the fear of transwomen in your bathroom is being fanned by those attempting to exploit your fear for their own ends?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a portion of men who seek out women’s bathrooms to feel good, peep, and masturbate. Remember hearing about the hidden cameras? Those are from men. The number of men who will use these tossed out norms like “bathrooms are for women” to do perverse things is going to go UP when they have more access. I’ve never said it’s trans women who are the problem. The problem is that if women are no longer allowed to ask a male-presenting person from leaving the women’s bathroom because they’re seen as transphobic, then ANY man with a perverted agenda will have more access. All this data focusing on trans women is irrelevant; it’s that removing the norm to prevent men with dirty minds from accessing women’s only spaces is Dani for women.

If you are a female presenting person, no one is going to know and the vast majority of women won’t care. But to continue to hammer that anyone can wake up any day and be a women will put women at risk.

The statistics don’t bear that out.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Because transwomen will get killed.

Transwomen get killed for using the men’s bathroom? Has this actually ever happened?

Trans women and trans men have been killed for being trans. Forcing them to use bathrooms for genders they don't present as outs them to everyone who sees them in the bathroom or going in and out of the bathroom. So bathroom laws do 2 things that make trans people less safe: they add to the transphobic environment (every time an anti lgbtq law is proposed, it adds fuel to the fire), and it lets people know, here's a trans person. If they're open about being trans, the second part might not be a big deal. But if they're private about being trans, that's not good for their mental health or safety.

This is an actual problem, not a hypothetical problem.

So no transwoman had ever been killed for using the men’s room. It IS a hypothetical.

You know those kids you claim you want to protect? When they have bathroom and locker room restrictions, they’re sexually assaulted at a higher rate. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/143/6/e20182902/76816/School-Restroom-and-Locker-Room-Restrictions-and

They may not have been murdered, but they have been harassed, attacked and sexually assaulted in bathrooms. Trans people have higher rates of UTIs because they restrict their bathroom usage because of fear of harassment. DS has had that issue. It sucks. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-survey/u-s-transgender-people-harassed-in-public-restrooms-landmark-survey-idUSKBN13X0BK

Women haven’t been attacked by trans people in bathrooms. Sexual assaults haven’t gone up due to trans people having access to bathrooms that match their gender identity. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

So studies show there are real negative consequences and risk of physical and emotional harm for trans people forced to use the bathroom that doesn’t match their gender identity. Studies also show there isn’t a higher risk of sexual assault to cis women who use bathrooms with trans women. There’s no reason to have bathroom bans/restrictions other than bigotry and transphobia. I didn’t say people are being killed, and that may be an overstatement. However, people are being assaulted, and it’s trans people not cis women.

So once again, the claim that segregating bathrooms by sex will result in transwomen being killed is false. Thanks for confirming.

I didn’t make that claim. I don’t know if any murders specifically because of bathroom restrictions for trans people, just assault and rape. I guess that’s not a big deal. And there’s also the fact that trans people are sometimes murdered for being trans, and bathroom bans would out them as trans, so it would be a risky move, but because it’s more than one step from using the bathroom to being victimized you’re not willing to acknowledge how bathroom restrictions could contribute to murder. Anyway, I don’t need to deal with hypothetical hate crimes, there are real ones that happen when bathroom restrictions are in place for trans people.

What’s false is saying that allowing trans women to use the bathroom with cis women will endanger women.