Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It is a cheap rhetorical trick to constantly pretend, as Trans Radical Activists do, that this debate is the same as the Civil Rights Movement or the Gay Rights Movement. It isn’t, because in those debates, there was no conflict of rights between peoples.” X Shahana Ashur

This was incredibly helpful for me when trying to understand how to frame the argument.

Christians in TN refusing to process paperwork for gay men getting married. Cake shops. All that freedom of religion stuff where people claim their god hates gays.

Yes, and white supremacists had their feelings hurt by the Civil Rights Act.

But none of that is remotely similar to the actual increased physical risks that women take on to benefit the trans rights movement. And in the other two civil rights movements, there wasn’t a new rapacious medical industry whose continued profit depended on the success of the movement. And that is the difference here.

Yes, obnoxious Christian bakers got told to bake a stupid cake. I think most Americans rolled their eyes and told them to bake the stupid cake. That’s not a conflict of rights, that’s some snowflakes being told to do something that doesn’t physically hurt them at all.

But trans rights is very different because women are being and will get physically harmed due to the destruction of women’s single-sex spaces. Male predators (who will mostly be cis) have used and will use enhanced access to spaces they couldn’t previously access. Meanwhile, children and vulnerable adults have been and will be hurt by an industry that is profit-driven, growing rapidly, and repressing any academic research critical of their profit.

I want to be clear: I do not support bathroom bans, or bans on children’s access to treatment. But it needs to be okay to talk about the enormous societal harms that some people, disproportionately the most vulnerable, will pay for the advancement of transgender rights. Right now, that discussion is shut down entirely. Academics who so much as question some of the glaringly weak studies on transgender medical care for children risk losing their entire careers at the hands of activists. Women who speak about physical safety risks face grotesquely violent rape and death threats from trans activists.

All of this is very, very different from prior civil rights movements.

Trans people shouldn't be punished for things that a different group is doing. I'm glad you don't support bathroom bans, but so many people do. Cis men sometimes assault women, cis men take advantage to open access, so let's ban trans women from women's bathrooms. I've yet to see any information that shows allowing trans women access to women's bathrooms increases violent crimes against women. I've seen a study that showed violent crimes increase where there are unisex bathrooms, which is a completely different topic. I don't think there's going to be a big rush of cis men claiming to be trans women for 5 minute increments so they can use the women's bathroom, and if that does happen, again, that's a cis men problem not a trans problem.

The PP is intentionally conflating violent cis-gender men with transgender women.

How are we supposed to tell the difference? How?

One of my university friends is a pre-Hrt lesbian MTF. He (pronouns are still he/him) still “male modes” at work because he’s not out there but he has told me he sometimes uses female restrooms when out in public. So far into his transition (~1.5 yrs) he still looks like a 6’0 man with stubble and chin length hair, only he wears nail polish and jewelry but I’m not sure I would notice that from a distance. If I encountered him in a bathroom he would just look like a random big male person. And it would be frightening for me to be isolated with a strange male as I have been assaulted in my past. I can’t get over the fact that if I showed any sign of being nervous or not wanting him there in that situation I would be the bigot and could conceivably lose my job.

Is he in “woman mode” outside of work?

Yes sometimes but woman mode is almost indistinguishable from man mode as he has no feminizing physical changes besides slightly longer hair and sometimes a purple or pink t shirt. He wears jeans and tshirts regardless of the gender of the clothing and does not wear makeup. In this case I struggle with the idea that clothes *are* expected to make or not make someone a man. For what it’s worth despite making no physical changes or even changing his pronouns he still gets really upset when someone doesn’t see him as a woman during the times when he feels he is presenting as one. And when they are upset he says “he doesn’t owe anyone his transition“ It has really harmed our friendship because I just can’t follow

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It is a cheap rhetorical trick to constantly pretend, as Trans Radical Activists do, that this debate is the same as the Civil Rights Movement or the Gay Rights Movement. It isn’t, because in those debates, there was no conflict of rights between peoples.” X Shahana Ashur

This was incredibly helpful for me when trying to understand how to frame the argument.

Christians in TN refusing to process paperwork for gay men getting married. Cake shops. All that freedom of religion stuff where people claim their god hates gays.

Yes, and white supremacists had their feelings hurt by the Civil Rights Act.

But none of that is remotely similar to the actual increased physical risks that women take on to benefit the trans rights movement. And in the other two civil rights movements, there wasn’t a new rapacious medical industry whose continued profit depended on the success of the movement. And that is the difference here.

Yes, obnoxious Christian bakers got told to bake a stupid cake. I think most Americans rolled their eyes and told them to bake the stupid cake. That’s not a conflict of rights, that’s some snowflakes being told to do something that doesn’t physically hurt them at all.

But trans rights is very different because women are being and will get physically harmed due to the destruction of women’s single-sex spaces. Male predators (who will mostly be cis) have used and will use enhanced access to spaces they couldn’t previously access. Meanwhile, children and vulnerable adults have been and will be hurt by an industry that is profit-driven, growing rapidly, and repressing any academic research critical of their profit.

I want to be clear: I do not support bathroom bans, or bans on children’s access to treatment. But it needs to be okay to talk about the enormous societal harms that some people, disproportionately the most vulnerable, will pay for the advancement of transgender rights. Right now, that discussion is shut down entirely. Academics who so much as question some of the glaringly weak studies on transgender medical care for children risk losing their entire careers at the hands of activists. Women who speak about physical safety risks face grotesquely violent rape and death threats from trans activists.

All of this is very, very different from prior civil rights movements.

Trans people shouldn't be punished for things that a different group is doing. I'm glad you don't support bathroom bans, but so many people do. Cis men sometimes assault women, cis men take advantage to open access, so let's ban trans women from women's bathrooms. I've yet to see any information that shows allowing trans women access to women's bathrooms increases violent crimes against women. I've seen a study that showed violent crimes increase where there are unisex bathrooms, which is a completely different topic. I don't think there's going to be a big rush of cis men claiming to be trans women for 5 minute increments so they can use the women's bathroom, and if that does happen, again, that's a cis men problem not a trans problem.

The PP is intentionally conflating violent cis-gender men with transgender women.

How are we supposed to tell the difference? How?

One of my university friends is a pre-Hrt lesbian MTF. He (pronouns are still he/him) still “male modes” at work because he’s not out there but he has told me he sometimes uses female restrooms when out in public. So far into his transition (~1.5 yrs) he still looks like a 6’0 man with stubble and chin length hair, only he wears nail polish and jewelry but I’m not sure I would notice that from a distance. If I encountered him in a bathroom he would just look like a random big male person. And it would be frightening for me to be isolated with a strange male as I have been assaulted in my past. I can’t get over the fact that if I showed any sign of being nervous or not wanting him there in that situation I would be the bigot and could conceivably lose my job.

Is he in “woman mode” outside of work?

Yes sometimes but woman mode is almost indistinguishable from man mode as he has no feminizing physical changes besides slightly longer hair and sometimes a purple or pink t shirt. He wears jeans and tshirts regardless of the gender of the clothing and does not wear makeup. In this case I struggle with the idea that clothes *are* expected to make or not make someone a man. For what it’s worth despite making no physical changes or even changing his pronouns he still gets really upset when someone doesn’t see him as a woman during the times when he feels he is presenting as one. And when they are upset he says “he doesn’t owe anyone his transition“ It has really harmed our friendship because I just can’t follow

Does he call it man mode?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It is a cheap rhetorical trick to constantly pretend, as Trans Radical Activists do, that this debate is the same as the Civil Rights Movement or the Gay Rights Movement. It isn’t, because in those debates, there was no conflict of rights between peoples.” X Shahana Ashur

This was incredibly helpful for me when trying to understand how to frame the argument.

Christians in TN refusing to process paperwork for gay men getting married. Cake shops. All that freedom of religion stuff where people claim their god hates gays.

Yes, and white supremacists had their feelings hurt by the Civil Rights Act.

But none of that is remotely similar to the actual increased physical risks that women take on to benefit the trans rights movement. And in the other two civil rights movements, there wasn’t a new rapacious medical industry whose continued profit depended on the success of the movement. And that is the difference here.

Yes, obnoxious Christian bakers got told to bake a stupid cake. I think most Americans rolled their eyes and told them to bake the stupid cake. That’s not a conflict of rights, that’s some snowflakes being told to do something that doesn’t physically hurt them at all.

But trans rights is very different because women are being and will get physically harmed due to the destruction of women’s single-sex spaces. Male predators (who will mostly be cis) have used and will use enhanced access to spaces they couldn’t previously access. Meanwhile, children and vulnerable adults have been and will be hurt by an industry that is profit-driven, growing rapidly, and repressing any academic research critical of their profit.

I want to be clear: I do not support bathroom bans, or bans on children’s access to treatment. But it needs to be okay to talk about the enormous societal harms that some people, disproportionately the most vulnerable, will pay for the advancement of transgender rights. Right now, that discussion is shut down entirely. Academics who so much as question some of the glaringly weak studies on transgender medical care for children risk losing their entire careers at the hands of activists. Women who speak about physical safety risks face grotesquely violent rape and death threats from trans activists.

All of this is very, very different from prior civil rights movements.

Trans people shouldn't be punished for things that a different group is doing. I'm glad you don't support bathroom bans, but so many people do. Cis men sometimes assault women, cis men take advantage to open access, so let's ban trans women from women's bathrooms. I've yet to see any information that shows allowing trans women access to women's bathrooms increases violent crimes against women. I've seen a study that showed violent crimes increase where there are unisex bathrooms, which is a completely different topic. I don't think there's going to be a big rush of cis men claiming to be trans women for 5 minute increments so they can use the women's bathroom, and if that does happen, again, that's a cis men problem not a trans problem.

The PP is intentionally conflating violent cis-gender men with transgender women.

How are we supposed to tell the difference? How?

One of my university friends is a pre-Hrt lesbian MTF. He (pronouns are still he/him) still “male modes” at work because he’s not out there but he has told me he sometimes uses female restrooms when out in public. So far into his transition (~1.5 yrs) he still looks like a 6’0 man with stubble and chin length hair, only he wears nail polish and jewelry but I’m not sure I would notice that from a distance. If I encountered him in a bathroom he would just look like a random big male person. And it would be frightening for me to be isolated with a strange male as I have been assaulted in my past. I can’t get over the fact that if I showed any sign of being nervous or not wanting him there in that situation I would be the bigot and could conceivably lose my job.

Is he in “woman mode” outside of work?

Yes sometimes but woman mode is almost indistinguishable from man mode as he has no feminizing physical changes besides slightly longer hair and sometimes a purple or pink t shirt. He wears jeans and tshirts regardless of the gender of the clothing and does not wear makeup. In this case I struggle with the idea that clothes *are* expected to make or not make someone a man. For what it’s worth despite making no physical changes or even changing his pronouns he still gets really upset when someone doesn’t see him as a woman during the times when he feels he is presenting as one. And when they are upset he says “he doesn’t owe anyone his transition“ It has really harmed our friendship because I just can’t follow

This sounds like a difficult relationship to maintain, and I'm sorry your friendship is suffering for it. I wish there were an easy solution so they could feel comfortable and you could intuit the right words to say so they feel seen and heard the way they want. I don't think you're coming off as transphobic in general from this post, just frustrated because you don't know the best way to handle this unique situation.

That said, this is one of the things I don't get. One of the issues people who don't support transgender people claim to struggle with is that clothes/appearance don't make the person/gender, so dressing like a woman doesn't matter. But here we have someone who doesn't wear a feminine wardrobe but says they identify as a woman, and they're having trouble being accepted because they don't present as a woman. We can say these social norms don't matter, but they're so ingrained in many of us, at least at some level, and it's hard to separate them. I get that someone can feel one way on the outside and look a different way on the outside, and in different circumstances they may choose to identify and ask to be addressed one way or the other. But if there's a social transition, trans people are condemned by some. If they don't outwardly change their presentation and still ask to be addressed how they identify, they're criticized. If they're fluid (by nature or necessity), more criticism. It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.

[Anonymous]

“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

But trans women aren’t the ones threatening women’s safety.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

But trans women aren’t the ones threatening women’s safety.

I never said trans women were the only ones threatening women's safety. What is your point? Do you have a response to my post?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

But trans women aren’t the ones threatening women’s safety.

I never said trans women were the only ones threatening women's safety. What is your point? Do you have a response to my post?

Okay, my response to your post would be that I totally get what you mean when you realized you could be overpowered by a boyfriend. I've always dated guys who were physically strong. I'm short and not strong. I wouldn't stand a chance in a physical altercation with most men. I also wouldn't come out on top against many women. I don't avoid dealing with those people. I don't fear being near them. Most people aren't looking to fight me, so I don't really spend most of my time sizing up who I can take or working out to prep for fights. I'm not Jason Bourne, and I don't want to be. Most trans women aren't big beefy dudes with beards and guns and dresses, and even when I see someone looking like that in drag, sans guns, I chat them up because they're probably gonna be fun to hang with.

My other thought is that trans people aren't necessarily trying to eliminate gender, just gender stereotypes. There are biological differences. There are different likes and dislikes and preferences, and society has decided some of those fall under gender categories. It's okay to have preferences. It's okay to change preferences. It's okay if you want to choose something or if you want to go with your feelings and it's not an active choice but how you feel. (An example of what I'm thinking of is I choose to look professional today so I'm going to wear a suit, or I feel delicate today so I'm going to reflect that feeling by wearing a dress. Or tone of voice-I'm leading a meeting so I'm choosing to just a more powerful voice, vs I'm tired and spent at the end of the week so I feel like being quiet and soft spoken.) We can do those things without gender, or we can do them while presenting as a gender and having a stylistic flair. Basically, it's fine either way. It's fine if there's fluidity or consistency or rigidity in one's own life, and all anyone has to do is be respectful and kind to the people around us. Trans people aren't taking things away from other people more than anyone else. There are more options in life than traditional gender norms and no gender at all.

What hurts us is when people start trying to limit the rights of others. When people say mean things for the sake of being mean, when people try to be exclusive. Basically when people become bullies, and start legislating those bullying ways. What hurts us is when people physically assault each other, or commit other crimes against each other. Look at the stats. It's not trans people doing most of that. What hurts people is when they're told their identity isn't what they feel it is and deny them the validation they need until they self medicate or hurt themselves. Or when people get so caught up in their hatred of a particular group, they start publicly shaming people they claim to want to protect: https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/girl-verbally-abused-at-kelowna-track-meet-hopes-devastating-incident-can-bring-about-change

That's how your post made me feel and that's my response to it. Women are strong, and mostly we're safe, except for sexual assault and that usually comes from cis men we know, and we're statistically probably going to be okay if we get pregnant, but it could be better considering we have the worst outcomes of all the developed countries, and there's a specific group trying to limit healthcare and make those stats worse. But mostly things are better for women than they used to be, although there's room for improvement. I don't feel the need to try to stand on my trans friends' necks to boost myself up by keeping them down. I want them to feel as comfortable as I do when I go pee at a restaurant while I wait for dessert to arrive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

[Anonymous]

Trans rights does not threaten womens safety. It just doesn't/ You think cis men aren't attacking women in the bathroom ... because they can't be in the bathroom? WHAT do you hear your self?

ALso - "because cis men are violent" is not a reason to deny trans people their rights.

Some of you use a lot of words to be bigots. It must be exhausting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It feels like a catch 22 where the only acceptable option for some is closeting/repressing those feelings.”

You have hit the nail entirely on the head with this sentence. This entire debate boils down to whether there are *any* social or societal norms that are *ever* acceptable. Different people will draw the line at different places. I think we would all agree that an adult sexually contacting a child is unacceptable. But what if the adult really and truly loves children and is otherwise closeted or repressed? I think we would all say too bad for that person and here’s a nice jail cell for you if you can’t behave yourself. So walking that line back to what is a man and what is a woman is the root of the difficulty here. Knowing that there are biological differences between men and women means that this is not all a social construct. So where is the line? That is what we are fighting towards. We have to have some societal norms to function. Otherwise there is no society.

Why do we need any norms for gender?

Exactly! Great question! The reasons that others have laid out on this thread include things such as women's safety and comfort in single-sex spaces, sports competition equality, prison accommodations, and job security/equality. It's exactly the point and why the line is so hard to draw. Societal norms are required for people to know what to expect and how to act. If we decide that gender is no longer a societal norm then society will need to change, for example, by creating new sports divisions or only having isolated locker room spaces. I think we would all agree that many gender norms are outdated and ridiculous. I've wanted to point out for a few pages that women did a lot of work for centuries and were not always seen by men as lesser than, but their work wasn't primarily related to strength and speed because women are, on average, much slower and weaker. That doesn't mean we have to stay home and barefoot, but it does mean we can't be competing with men in some respects. And it also means that most men can overpower most women easily. I grew up in the 80s and women were establishing themselves in education and business handily. I felt like I could do anything. I remember the first time my boyfriend reached across me to grab something I had, and I realized, holy shit, this guy could physically assault me and there would be nothing I could do about it. It was a real eye-opener. He was not abusive, but men are different! They just are!

Women have fought long and hard for safety and power when they had so little of it for millennia. It feels like women finally feel safe and powerful and now anyone who says they are a woman is a woman? If you say gender isn't a thing and doesn't matter, then what was the point of any of that if it can be destroyed because a person with all the biological attributes of a man feels like a woman? In other words, is being able to wake up any day of the week and feel like one gender or another enough to break down basic biologic realities and remove all societal norms?

So we need gender norms because you are fearful of big men?

Instead of breaking down gender norms *even more* than we already have over the past 50 years you want to dig into gender rigidity? Make Binary Genders Great Again?

In case you hadn't noticed, society *is* changing. I don't see any issue with new sports divisions or individual changing rooms - almost everyone would prefer those anyway.

Let's just treat people as people. Our society will do just fine with evolving (or no) gender norms.

I’ve posted this about a million times on this site, but I’ll say it again: throw out the word “gender” (no need to change its meaning again, just scrap it), let everyone express themselves however they want, and segregate spaces/sports, etc based on biological sex. Done.

Public restrooms are probably really scary for you. You must see “the trance menace” in every stall grooming your children.

Actually it’s anyone with a penis but sure. I’m only afraid of transwomen.

What exactly is the problem with separating bathrooms by sex?

Because transwomen will get killed.