S/O Why do you care if moms stay home?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

Mic drop, girl. And this is the fundamental issue I have with SAHMs. They are so freaking selfish and narrow-minded. THIS IS WHAT THE WOMEN WHO CAME BEFORE US FOUGHT FOR. but they can’t see the societal consequences (which you so brilliantly outlined).

But couldn't all of these issues be dealt with just as well if we had a more open-minded attitude toward older women re-entering the workforce, or more open-minded attitudes to both men and women working less while their children are young? Do all the doctors, police offers, CEO's, and legislators have to be women/parents with young children? Over half the people in this country are childless or have older children. More and more women are choosing to be childless. Can't THOSE people handle the police departments, hospitals, science labs, etc. for just a little bit while I take care of my child?

+1. I don't like the implication that women are obligated to become CEOs, ob/gyns, LEO, or legislators just because it's good for society. It's the exact same argument people have used to oppress women- that it's good for society to have all women married and at home raising kids. Women aren't obligated to do anything except for what they want to do, same as men. If it's a doctor, great. If it's a SAHM, also great. There are many ways to bring about change in regards to women's issues other than making it your career. You wouldn't tell someone who is anti-war to join the military because then they can change things from within; there are other options available.

I also don't know where all these male ob/gyns are that pressure women into c-sections. Maybe 50 years ago, but today almost all are women. I'm sure there are some bad ones out there, but in my experience all the issues I've had were with female ob/gyns, who pressured me into STD tests I didn't want, promoted "natural" and "baby friendly" choices that I didn't want, told me to suck it up during painful colposcopies, and when I went in for pain during sex told me it was all in my head and suggested I just use lube and relax while my husband did his thing. My male doctors, on the other hand, were very supportive of my choices and gave me answers when I needed them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, you seem to forget that civic America used to run on... sah moms! Church groups, league of women voters, all kinds of volunteer organizations, etc. Educated women who had the time and attention to engage with society. Is it really better for society to have every parent scrambling bt work and childcare, with no time for reading, community activism, etc?

I think this is very true, and it would be great if we structured society so that people could have all their necessities covered with one person working full time, or two people working full time, or (gasp) a single person who could take a paid maternity leave. In a world where many of us are hustling harder all the time (and for me that's not so I can have a bigger house or fancier vacation, but so I can pay my rent and have health insurance) does wear away at our family life and at our civic society.

I found this to be a useful book (JHU professor) if anyone else is interested:
https://punctumbooks.com/titles/knocking-the-hustle/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Crazy idea. What if we lived in a society where people didn't have to scramble all the time, so they could work AND contribute to their communities. And what if women AND men had the flexibility to do that?

Here's a crazy idea, if a family can afford to have one parent home and chooses it, why not support it. Reality is some jobs can be very flexible and others cannot. I quit mine as mine was not flexible and I had a horrible boss who wouldn't even let me go to the doctor for an emergency. The boss was a woman. Women are far more difficult (in general) to work for. My husband has always had reasonably flexible jobs. We had a child with SN and my income would barely cover child care so it made sense for me to stop working. Here's another idea: by raising healthy, happy well cared for children, you are contributing to your community. You presume its best for everyone that all men and women work. You can contribute in many ways without a paid job. If my child comes out ok and happy and can function on her own/go to college and have a good life. Then, I have been successful and contributed to my community.

I worked in a field that was dominated by childless women and they were the worst. They looked down on all women with kids at our company (lots of talk about "breeders") and complained any time a woman had to leave early, take a day off, work part-time, or alter their schedule in any way because of kids. They even screeched when women took time off for family vacations. The men, on the other hand, didn't care and were great about picking up extra slack.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

I appreciate everything you said, but none of it would make it possible for me to put my 4-month-old in daycare. There is something primal/emotional in me that will not let someone else be my infant/toddler’s primary caregiver. It’s not guilt or worry - it’s just a deep desire to be with her. Do I think these are all good arguments to return to work when she’s like 5? yes. Also, remember that I vote for all the policies you suggested, even if I’m not currently working. And really, what is to stop someone from taking a couple years off from their medical practice, for ex, and then returning when her kids are in preschool? I mean, even Nancy Pelosi was a sahm for awhile....

I'm the PP that you quoted. I get the primal desire to be with your kids, I also stayed home when my kids were very young, my post is more about people who leave the workforce entirely or who seem to think that there are no consequences down the line if women on the whole start dropping their careers because they're conned into thinking they have to or they can't combine the two.

You are actually wrong about this, but it will take you some more life experience to see it.

[Anonymous]

I think we need to move towards more flexibility for EVERYONE, men and women alike. More flexibility in hours and locations worked, in who volunteers, in when people reenter the workforce, etc. For that to happen, all of us in the workforce need to push for them. Reward companies who offer flexibility, stay away from those who don't. Lengthy, paid parental leave for all parents. Those are the kinds of things that need to happen for us all to move forward.

Power structures won't change if things stay the same, period. Part of why I keep working is for the long game, and to set an example for the young women with whom I work that there are different ways to do things.

So, I don't necessarily care if any one woman chooses to stay home with her kids. But I also think that we have to look big picture and do things differently if we want things to be different. We have to change for change to happen.

[Anonymous]

I really think we need to start referring to SAHP and WOHP.

My opinion is that both can do amazing or awful jobs of raising their kids. It is less about whether parents work or stay at home and more about their parenting skills, style and involvement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think we need to move towards more flexibility for EVERYONE, men and women alike. More flexibility in hours and locations worked, in who volunteers, in when people reenter the workforce, etc. For that to happen, all of us in the workforce need to push for them. Reward companies who offer flexibility, stay away from those who don't. Lengthy, paid parental leave for all parents. Those are the kinds of things that need to happen for us all to move forward.

Power structures won't change if things stay the same, period. Part of why I keep working is for the long game, and to set an example for the young women with whom I work that there are different ways to do things.

So, I don't necessarily care if any one woman chooses to stay home with her kids. But I also think that we have to look big picture and do things differently if we want things to be different. We have to change for change to happen.

The fundamental issue behind this though is that we need more women of childbearing age to be respected in the workplace. More women in positions of power. More flexible working environments with better quality childcare at all price points.

Again, the SAHMs are making terrible arguments in this thread. Women are bad to work for? Why do you think that is? Because they’ve been treated like second-class citizens and let down by their peers who quit while on maternity leave etc. The fundamental issue behind so many of the societal problems is getting women into positions where they are respected. That position is not watching soap operas during naptime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The women’s movement was about giving women opportunity and choices in life.

It was not about turning them into make worker bees.

There is nothing more pathetic than a SAHM arguing that the movement for women’s equality was so they could stay home and be dependent on a man. It is mind-boggling that anyone would make that argument. There are valid reasons to stay at home. Taking advantage of your feminist rights is not one of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The women’s movement was about giving women opportunity and choices in life.

It was not about turning them into make worker bees.

There is nothing more pathetic than a SAHM arguing that the movement for women’s equality was so they could stay home and be dependent on a man. It is mind-boggling that anyone would make that argument. There are valid reasons to stay at home. Taking advantage of your feminist rights is not one of them.

The man in this situation is also dependent on a woman. They depend on each other.

Also, this is DCUM, do you really believe that sahms don't have an emergency plan or an ace up their sleeve? Cmon, now!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we need to move towards more flexibility for EVERYONE, men and women alike. More flexibility in hours and locations worked, in who volunteers, in when people reenter the workforce, etc. For that to happen, all of us in the workforce need to push for them. Reward companies who offer flexibility, stay away from those who don't. Lengthy, paid parental leave for all parents. Those are the kinds of things that need to happen for us all to move forward.

Power structures won't change if things stay the same, period. Part of why I keep working is for the long game, and to set an example for the young women with whom I work that there are different ways to do things.

So, I don't necessarily care if any one woman chooses to stay home with her kids. But I also think that we have to look big picture and do things differently if we want things to be different. We have to change for change to happen.

The fundamental issue behind this though is that we need more women of childbearing age to be respected in the workplace. More women in positions of power. More flexible working environments with better quality childcare at all price points.

Again, the SAHMs are making terrible arguments in this thread. Women are bad to work for? Why do you think that is? Because they’ve been treated like second-class citizens and let down by their peers who quit while on maternity leave etc. The fundamental issue behind so many of the societal problems is getting women into positions where they are respected. That position is not watching soap operas during naptime.

It’s child bearing women letting other women down.
Great point, chief!
It must really suck to be a self loathing feminist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

Mic drop, girl. And this is the fundamental issue I have with SAHMs. They are so freaking selfish and narrow-minded. THIS IS WHAT THE WOMEN WHO CAME BEFORE US FOUGHT FOR. but they can’t see the societal consequences (which you so brilliantly outlined).

Eye roll. This feminist crap makes me ill.

[Anonymous]

I wish people would choose their choice then STFU about it!

Gosh you people are narcissists.

No one cares what you do!

[Anonymous]

What’s funny is that childless working women usually turn on working moms. I work in finance and 9/10 female senior exes are childless and they do NOTcare if you have a kid that needs to be picked up at a certain time or is sick, etc. Where’s your rah rah feminism then huh?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I never jump into these stupid debates and did not read the prior posts, but for this one I have to, because the OP betrays the total ignorance about history, women's rights, and the role of women in society.

It is not just about what you, Cindy Lou, decide to do with your career once you have kids. It's about the bigger picture, and the fact that when women are not able to, for various reasons, combine career with family, or when we collectively as a society start to spin a narrative that children are hurt when women work, then women feel pressured to drop out, or guilted into dropping out, or forced into it, and then women (and children) suffer the consequences, for example:

-when you have only male OB/GYNs who force you into c-sections and many other procedures because of a lack of understanding or care for what women face
-when there is less money given in the budget process of government to education, or protection for families, because men typically value these things less
-- when you get no paid maternity leave because CEOs are all men and so are the legislators
-- when scientists run studies only on male subjects because they assume women are the same
-- when rape kids go untouched because it's simply not a priority for police departments (mostly male)
-when you have no access to birth control because male legislators don't value it

I could go on and on. All of the above is part of our history and was part of our reality for hundreds/thousands of years. This is why women have fought to be in the workplace. So when SAHMs start talking about "who cares when women aren't part of the workforce," well that is just completely stupid.

It's easy to list these feminist ideologies when you have no other choices. I sincerely hope you don't think you're working at the Gap is contributing to less men in the police force.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The women’s movement was about giving women opportunity and choices in life.

It was not about turning them into make worker bees.

There is nothing more pathetic than a SAHM arguing that the movement for women’s equality was so they could stay home and be dependent on a man. It is mind-boggling that anyone would make that argument. There are valid reasons to stay at home. Taking advantage of your feminist rights is not one of them.

The man in this situation is also dependent on a woman. They depend on each other.

Also, this is DCUM, do you really believe that sahms don't have an emergency plan or an ace up their sleeve? Cmon, now!

?