Men: Would you date a woman who did not have a "real job"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you think men have a problem with a woman having the jobs you described, then you REALLY don't understand men.

+1.

- Man (BigLaw Partner)

Do you actually know anyone in BigLaw who married a waitress? I guess I agree with this in theory, but every high achieving man I know married a well-educated woman. The only exceptions I can think of are people in my parents generation (55 and older), and people who met as teenagers and kind of mapped out their lives together where she supported him through law school/medical school with one of the above jobs and the intent that she would SAH when he finished.

You raise a good question. Most of my partner's are married to women who have an education and had a career but almost all of them are SAHM's now. My wife was a government attorney, now a SAHM. There are a few who married the dental hygenist/teacher types. I don't think any married the waitress. Most married women they met in college. Yet, I can say with near certainty that its not the job or career that men care about at all. But they (we) do want a woman who can hold their own intellectually, whether that is a lawyer or a waitress, I wouldn't think would matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's upsetting for women who have worked so hard academically and sacrificed for their careers to learn that most men would be just as happy if you had been a yoga instructor or an ES teacher.

But it's true.

Most men want smart (not genius smart, just up on current events smart) pretty, sweet, affectionate, care-takers for wives. The details are not important.

A man who would want a big-law partner for a wife is very rare.

The PP who said that UMC men end up with these women b/c the women pursue these men was spot on.

FWIW, I am UMC, went to an Ivy and married an Ivy grad (both undergrad and law school) and I can tell you he would not give two hoots if I became a dog-walker tomorrow. He simply wants me to be happy, b/c when I'm happy his life is wonderful. That's out men.

And no it's not sad. It's sweet and supportive. Most women would freak out if their high-earning husbands stepped off that track.

I don't think this is true of most men. I think many professional men want to be with a professional woman even though they might have a more mommy-track professional job that's not quite as demanding as theirs. It's a lot of pressure to be the sole breadwinner even if you're making a ton. Plus I think many ambitious men are attracted to ambitious women and would be much less attracted to someone who is very smart and highly educated that's content with being a dog walker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It certainly depends per person. I think the average Joe shmoe would only care about if the girl is hot,nice and wants to have sex. It doesn't matter if she is a hooters waitress or wmata driver.

Men from upper middle class and above date their peers. Girls who have gone to private/prep school and then a top liberal arts school or an IVY. Usually these girls are very ambitious too. They will go on to apply to law schools/med schools/ grad schools. The least ambitious ones will get a masters in teacher education or international development. They will then graduate and work in prestigious but low paying jobs. The high achievers will be top lawyers/doctors etc.

Its pretty rare for a truly well-bred UMC/UC guy to marry very down. He may marry a girl who is"writing a novel" and living off her parents funds and then because a SAHM. But they won't date a hooters waitress.

I am upper middle class. The reason we marry these women is because these women aggressively seek us out, so that's who we end up with.

I have literally never in my entire life had a male friend say to me "She's hot, nice, and the sex is great, BUT: she didn't go to a good school/doesn't have a prestigious job/is not high achieving.

I agree with this. It is well known that men want to be admired and revered and women want to be with men who inspire them and whom they admire.

In a UMC/UC Guy + LMC/LLC Woman relationship, the guy is the highly admired by the woman. These women treat their men really really well because they know he is her meal ticket. They are charming, docile and attend to their every whim. I have seen LC women who snag an UMC guy, literally change their whole schedule to be with the man. Just look at Kate Middleton, she wanted William so badly she waited for him for 10 years and stood by him through 3 humiliating public break ups. Do you think another princess would have put up with him? No.

Every LC girl I know who married up has this resilient quality. The man is their ONLY focus and they move mountains to attend to his every need and keep him happy. And they're happy to do it because they genuinely are awed by his power and wealth and deeply admire him.

In an "equal" marriage the woman are more spoiled and have more demands. They see therough the B.S and do not put up with any flaws. They hold their men to a higher standard of treatment and accomplishment.

My LC friend who married her UMC husband who is very wealthy is like this. He hardly takes her on dates or buys her gifts. One time he got her flowers and she was over the moon and gushing about them. My dh isn't as rich and we both work but he is wonderful. He brings me flowers from the grocery every weekend and I often bitch about how I wish he got mine from a florist instead. haha. Its funny really.

I'm a former waitress, posted several pages back about dating professional men. I also grew up UMC and never treated my dates or boyfriends as "meal tickets." You're gross.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think this is true of most men. I think many professional men want to be with a professional woman even though they might have a more mommy-track professional job that's not quite as demanding as theirs. It's a lot of pressure to be the sole breadwinner even if you're making a ton. Plus I think many ambitious men are attracted to ambitious women and would be much less attracted to someone who is very smart and highly educated that's content with being a dog walker.

Nah. You are projecting your desires onto men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's upsetting for women who have worked so hard academically and sacrificed for their careers to learn that most men would be just as happy if you had been a yoga instructor or an ES teacher.

But it's true.

Most men want smart (not genius smart, just up on current events smart) pretty, sweet, affectionate, care-takers for wives. The details are not important.

A man who would want a big-law partner for a wife is very rare.

The PP who said that UMC men end up with these women b/c the women pursue these men was spot on.

FWIW, I am UMC, went to an Ivy and married an Ivy grad (both undergrad and law school) and I can tell you he would not give two hoots if I became a dog-walker tomorrow. He simply wants me to be happy, b/c when I'm happy his life is wonderful. That's out men.

And no it's not sad. It's sweet and supportive. Most women would freak out if their high-earning husbands stepped off that track.

I don't think this is true of most men. I think many professional men want to be with a professional woman even though they might have a more mommy-track professional job that's not quite as demanding as theirs. It's a lot of pressure to be the sole breadwinner even if you're making a ton. Plus I think many ambitious men are attracted to ambitious women and would be much less attracted to someone who is very smart and highly educated that's content with being a dog walker.

BigLaw partner here again, and I don't agree with this. At some level of income, there is no pressure being a sole breadwinner. On the other hand, its far more pressure to do something domestic while trying to succeed at what can be a pressure packed career (at times). In sum, having a SAHM wife takes the pressure off. And I agree with the poster upthread that I don't care what DW does - be a dog walker for all I care - just be happy. But that is a whole other discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The thing is that you are trying to distill this to a single question, and it's a lot more nuanced than that. Jobs are an outgrowth of education, which is an outgrowth of background and family expectations. This thread shows that people conflate background with ambition, and it is my experience that men may not care about the level of ambition (and in fact, may prefer a lower level of ambition), but they do care about shared background and education in the mother of their children. Yes, I'm a woman, but I also have a husband, who is very open that my education and intellect were a key reason why he married me - because he wanted his children raised by someone with these qualities. Background sets expectations of how things ought to be done, and shared expectations of important things are a huge success factor for marriages. And while we'll never know why the PP's husband thinks their marriage works, I'm sure he wouldn't swap her for someone who is just as nice an affectionate but didn't go to college at all.

See, I think at the end, its you who is conflating two issues. I am sure your husband did think your intellect was attractive and he valued it. I think you're drawing from that fact that he specifically cared about whether you went to college and you two had a shared background and family expectations. Its the latter point that strikes me as much more of a female perspective than a male perspective, and I think you might be mapping on to your husband. If your husband had met you at a bar while you were working as a waitress, but on your first date you came across as sufficiently intellectual to hold an enjoyable conversation with you, I am skeptical he would have broken it off if it turned out you had a different educational background from him or were not seeking a professional job.

[Anonymous]

I really don't think this debate lends itself to a black-or-white answer. For every man I know who married educated, intelligent and career-oriented women, I can point to just as many who went in the complete opposite direction. The women may not be Hooters waitresses, but one of DH's friends did marry a Vegas showgirl. She's a fitness instructor now, though.

[Anonymous]

If you're happy no matter what you're doing you're ahead of the game. I feel sad for some on here who are angry about other people's life style choices. Hopefully they too can figure it out down the road.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing is that you are trying to distill this to a single question, and it's a lot more nuanced than that. Jobs are an outgrowth of education, which is an outgrowth of background and family expectations. This thread shows that people conflate background with ambition, and it is my experience that men may not care about the level of ambition (and in fact, may prefer a lower level of ambition), but they do care about shared background and education in the mother of their children. Yes, I'm a woman, but I also have a husband, who is very open that my education and intellect were a key reason why he married me - because he wanted his children raised by someone with these qualities. Background sets expectations of how things ought to be done, and shared expectations of important things are a huge success factor for marriages. And while we'll never know why the PP's husband thinks their marriage works, I'm sure he wouldn't swap her for someone who is just as nice an affectionate but didn't go to college at all.

See, I think at the end, its you who is conflating two issues. I am sure your husband did think your intellect was attractive and he valued it. I think you're drawing from that fact that he specifically cared about whether you went to college and you two had a shared background and family expectations. Its the latter point that strikes me as much more of a female perspective than a male perspective, and I think you might be mapping on to your husband. If your husband had met you at a bar while you were working as a waitress, but on your first date you came across as sufficiently intellectual to hold an enjoyable conversation with you, I am skeptical he would have broken it off if it turned out you had a different educational background from him or were not seeking a professional job.

Well I know what he says, so you'll have to believe me that I am relating it as accurate.

Of course it is possible to find intellect in a waitress without a college degree. Statistically, it is less likely than finding it in a someone with graduate degree. It is also statistically more likely in someone who comes from a MC/UC family. You are describing a unicorn of a situation where a waitress who comes from a disadvantaged background with no formal education suddenly turns out to be an intellectual giant conversant in the world affairs. It is possible but statistically very unlikely, and even if a person like that existed, marrying them would still come with more challenges than marrying your own. And I do know with absolute certainty that if being a waitress was what I expected to do for the rest of my life - no matter how intellectual - we would have never married. Never. (Dating is a different story). How can a waitress with no college degree and no expectations of herself raise educated children and instill the importance of education in them? Why would you gamble with this? On an off-chance that she just might turn out to be an Einstein-caliber gem?

You may be a younger person who is focused on looks and personality. There's nothing wrong with that. But as I age, the importance of shared backgrounds and similar family expectations is becoming so much clearer. If you approach marriage with a cool head, as you should, you will see that shared expectations of how things ought to be make family life much easier. Yes, looks and personality are of course important, but it's just as easy to find in a person with similar background and family values. It's very hard to break off from the influence of family and childhood; it's much easier if this is working for you than against you. And it is doubly more important for a woman to pass that test because women shape households and children. This is how I am raising my son and daughter. We marry future mothers and fathers of our children, not just someone fun to date.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that smart, accomplished women overestimate how much a man will value her education and professional experience. In fact, I think that men feel threatened by women who are more successful. It stings when a man at your level prefers a state school sorority bunny.

Thanks, sister.

I went to a state school, was in a sorority, and went to a T14 law school. Happily married, successful career, two great kids.I am "at your level."

Don't blame your inability to date someone on men being threatened by you. Maybe it's because you're not very nice, not because you are very smart.

+1. another state school sorority girl here that went on to T14 law. FWIW, in addition to parties, sororities emphasize scholarship, leadership and charity. As a feminist, I learned not to judge other women's life choices, and I consider myself pretty much anyone's "equal," or as you might say, everyone's "on my level".

Maybe people around you don't like the way you seem to perpetually rank order life?

Those people have low self esteem and are very insecure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really don't think this debate lends itself to a black-or-white answer. For every man I know who married educated, intelligent and career-oriented women, I can point to just as many who went in the complete opposite direction. The women may not be Hooters waitresses, but one of DH's friends did marry a Vegas showgirl. She's a fitness instructor now, though.

I married a young woman who worked in a nursing home. I didn't mind her job. She wanted to share her time with me, she was cute, and she was intelligent. (Life interfered with her career asperations.)

[Anonymous]

If so few men care about their wives jobs, then why a there a 40 page thread on this page about men who don't want their wives to be SAHMs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think this is true of most men. I think many professional men want to be with a professional woman even though they might have a more mommy-track professional job that's not quite as demanding as theirs. It's a lot of pressure to be the sole breadwinner even if you're making a ton. Plus I think many ambitious men are attracted to ambitious women and would be much less attracted to someone who is very smart and highly educated that's content with being a dog walker.

Nah. You are projecting your desires onto men.

Sounds like it. If ambitious equates to unavailable because of work and/or ball-buster, ambitious isn't even a good thing in a woman I might meet. The smart dog walker looks more attractive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If so few men care about their wives jobs, then why a there a 40 page thread on this page about men who don't want their wives to be SAHMs?

It is mostly women posting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think this is true of most men. I think many professional men want to be with a professional woman even though they might have a more mommy-track professional job that's not quite as demanding as theirs. It's a lot of pressure to be the sole breadwinner even if you're making a ton. Plus I think many ambitious men are attracted to ambitious women and would be much less attracted to someone who is very smart and highly educated that's content with being a dog walker.

Nah. You are projecting your desires onto men.

Sounds like it. If ambitious equates to unavailable because of work and/or ball-buster, ambitious isn't even a good thing in a woman I might meet. The smart dog walker looks more attractive.

Yikes. Well I'm glad I married my DH and not someone with your attitude. If you have a daughter please don't teach her that ambition is an unattractive quality in a woman.