S/O Why can’t moms just chill and be nice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

Interesting. I've never understood the people who rush in to deny what the op is describing in their post. Most of us know this happens and it isn't just in suburban neighborhoods. It is so common. I think women get a lot of pressure to "bright side" things as if you get brownie points for trying to enforce the belief that life is all puppies, kittens, and rainbows. It isn't and people need help dealing with it. It's horrible to be unsympathetic to people who experience this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The cliques suck. I am very fun but a social floater with really limited tolerance for BS and hierarchy. My best friends are DINKs. I saw what I needed to and it wasn't for me.

The people who don't have an established friend group are often the targets for the mean girls. Having a target to hate is an easy way to unify a diverse group of people. People have been doing this since the beginning of time. The mean girls, like psychopaths, are adept at identifying a target. What has always stunned me is how the herd just goes along with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

Interesting. I've never understood the people who rush in to deny what the op is describing in their post. Most of us know this happens and it isn't just in suburban neighborhoods. It is so common. I think women get a lot of pressure to "bright side" things as if you get brownie points for trying to enforce the belief that life is all puppies, kittens, and rainbows. It isn't and people need help dealing with it. It's horrible to be unsympathetic to people who experience this.

Or maybe the things that are common in your life aren't common in other peoples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

Not prior poster, but I'm a feminist and have seen this in every neighborhood I've lived in. Women are still raised to be pitted against each other. Watch some reality tv and see how it happens in every place. Women are still penalized for being direct so underhanded behavior is the way so many women deal with their issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a middle aged suburban mom who was relentlessly bullied in high school, I feel like I am reliving those horrific days again. I *hate* it, and I hate especially that it seems so much easier to be a dad: they don’t play these games and don’t care, so why do we?

Why can’t grown women just be cool and nice to each other? Real question.

I'm truly not trying to be rude but I don't have a clue what you're on about.

Ignore these posters op. They always show up to gaslight. There are plenty of us who know exactly what you are talking about. Many of us watch the bullying go on. I keep my distance from the mean girl cliques but it hurts when it affects your kids. And it does.

NP. Having different experiences than you is not gaslighting.

Then the onus is on the person unfamiliar to read and learn. Haven't run into this? Feel free to read others experiences and educate yourself so that you can contribute in a more meaningful way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

OP does not claim this is "intrinsic" to women, nor dues she call women "mean, toxic shrews." Thats all your projection.

OP is describing a personal experience where other moms have been competitive or conformist which is not a behavior she notices in men around her. There are multiple explanations for this, including the idea that women tend to be more competitive or harder on each other *because* of internalized misogyny. Nothing OP has said indicates that she thinks women are intrinsically inferior to men, only that she's noticed a behavior among women in her life that is not present in the men and is asking why.

It is a behavior many women have noticed in groups of women, this isn't a new line of inquiry, it's a documented phenomenon, even if you personally have not experienced it.

This is all excuses and justification. OP's own internalized misogyny is hurting her ability to connect with other women. I'm not buying the anti-woman BS that tells us that female bullying is a "documented phenomenon" that isn't present in men. Spare me, please.

You are in denial and it doesn't help us to deny what occurs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

Interesting. I've never understood the people who rush in to deny what the op is describing in their post. Most of us know this happens and it isn't just in suburban neighborhoods. It is so common. I think women get a lot of pressure to "bright side" things as if you get brownie points for trying to enforce the belief that life is all puppies, kittens, and rainbows. It isn't and people need help dealing with it. It's horrible to be unsympathetic to people who experience this.

Or maybe the things that are common in your life aren't common in other peoples.

That doesn't mean they don't happen. It's dismissive to say "never seen this". How about, "I'm sorry that happened to you but I haven't seen this first hand, thankfully."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a middle aged suburban mom who was relentlessly bullied in high school, I feel like I am reliving those horrific days again. I *hate* it, and I hate especially that it seems so much easier to be a dad: they don’t play these games and don’t care, so why do we?

Why can’t grown women just be cool and nice to each other? Real question.

I'm truly not trying to be rude but I don't have a clue what you're on about.

Ignore these posters op. They always show up to gaslight. There are plenty of us who know exactly what you are talking about. Many of us watch the bullying go on. I keep my distance from the mean girl cliques but it hurts when it affects your kids. And it does.

NP. Having different experiences than you is not gaslighting.

Then the onus is on the person unfamiliar to read and learn. Haven't run into this? Feel free to read others experiences and educate yourself so that you can contribute in a more meaningful way.

Maybe you should read and learn about people who don't live in communities full of bullies then. Perhaps educate yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a middle aged suburban mom who was relentlessly bullied in high school, I feel like I am reliving those horrific days again. I *hate* it, and I hate especially that it seems so much easier to be a dad: they don’t play these games and don’t care, so why do we?

Why can’t grown women just be cool and nice to each other? Real question.

You answered your own question.

My DH does not care if other dads like him. He is not in competition with other dads. He is not offended when other dads are cold or standoffish, he just think "oh this person is not friendly, I will not bother them anymore."

But I get why it happens because also society expects way more of moms, and just has higher standards, and this encourages a culture of comparison. The bar is lower for dads which means more of them clear it, and they can be more chill knowing they are meeting the minimal expectations of parenthood. Women often live in a constant state of insecurity that they aren't good enough, and this breeds competitive, unkind behavior towards one another.

Really does anyone have time for this middle school girl drama? Try to be nice and move along if nothing else.

Agree. Not everyone is meant to be friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

OP does not claim this is "intrinsic" to women, nor dues she call women "mean, toxic shrews." Thats all your projection.

OP is describing a personal experience where other moms have been competitive or conformist which is not a behavior she notices in men around her. There are multiple explanations for this, including the idea that women tend to be more competitive or harder on each other *because* of internalized misogyny. Nothing OP has said indicates that she thinks women are intrinsically inferior to men, only that she's noticed a behavior among women in her life that is not present in the men and is asking why.

It is a behavior many women have noticed in groups of women, this isn't a new line of inquiry, it's a documented phenomenon, even if you personally have not experienced it.

The irony here is wild. I know this isn't your intent, but you're describing precisely what the OP is doing in this post.

I disagree that's what she's doing. If you read all of OP's posts, she's talking about specific behaviors this group of moms have engaged in that have led to her feeling judged and hurt (behaviors like criticizing her directly for choices like not dying her hair). I also think it's obvious she's not talking about individual women being chill or nice, but about the dynamics between women. She's asking why, when women are in groups together, is it hard for them to just be accepting and tolerant of each other without judgment and competition.

OP could have framed this better but this isn't a novel observation. Many, many women have expressed frustration with the way women interact with each other, and complained about the exact same dynamics OP describes -- enforced conformity, judgment of any deviation, an emphasis on physical appearance and performance of motherhood. I don't think women do any of this because women just intrinsically are bad. I think we do it because we are all participating in the misogynist pastime of constantly measuring and comparing women in order to find them wanting, so that we may criticize and judge them. All women have experienced this. When it happens at the hands of other women it feels like a betrayal, and when it happens at the hands of an entire group of women it is worse. Admitting this is not misogyny. Women participate in the patriarchy every day. Pointing that out is not misogyny.

It isn't. If that's the only experience you have with groups of women, I feel sorry for you. You're either a terrible judge of character or you're seeing/perceiving these situations in a distorted way.

New poster here. I can not believe you are denying such bullying exists. It is common. I believe that people like you are very comfortable being dishonest. You are really mind f'ing the poster when you claim it is all them. I experienced group bullying after moving in to a neighborhood because I was open about my child having learning disabilities. The general attitude from the women was that we were the "wrong" moving in to the neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

OP does not claim this is "intrinsic" to women, nor dues she call women "mean, toxic shrews." Thats all your projection.

OP is describing a personal experience where other moms have been competitive or conformist which is not a behavior she notices in men around her. There are multiple explanations for this, including the idea that women tend to be more competitive or harder on each other *because* of internalized misogyny. Nothing OP has said indicates that she thinks women are intrinsically inferior to men, only that she's noticed a behavior among women in her life that is not present in the men and is asking why.

It is a behavior many women have noticed in groups of women, this isn't a new line of inquiry, it's a documented phenomenon, even if you personally have not experienced it.

The irony here is wild. I know this isn't your intent, but you're describing precisely what the OP is doing in this post.

I disagree that's what she's doing. If you read all of OP's posts, she's talking about specific behaviors this group of moms have engaged in that have led to her feeling judged and hurt (behaviors like criticizing her directly for choices like not dying her hair). I also think it's obvious she's not talking about individual women being chill or nice, but about the dynamics between women. She's asking why, when women are in groups together, is it hard for them to just be accepting and tolerant of each other without judgment and competition.

OP could have framed this better but this isn't a novel observation. Many, many women have expressed frustration with the way women interact with each other, and complained about the exact same dynamics OP describes -- enforced conformity, judgment of any deviation, an emphasis on physical appearance and performance of motherhood. I don't think women do any of this because women just intrinsically are bad. I think we do it because we are all participating in the misogynist pastime of constantly measuring and comparing women in order to find them wanting, so that we may criticize and judge them. All women have experienced this. When it happens at the hands of other women it feels like a betrayal, and when it happens at the hands of an entire group of women it is worse. Admitting this is not misogyny. Women participate in the patriarchy every day. Pointing that out is not misogyny.

It isn't. If that's the only experience you have with groups of women, I feel sorry for you. You're either a terrible judge of character or you're seeing/perceiving these situations in a distorted way.

New poster here. I can not believe you are denying such bullying exists. It is common. I believe that people like you are very comfortable being dishonest. You are really mind f'ing the poster when you claim it is all them. I experienced group bullying after moving in to a neighborhood because I was open about my child having learning disabilities. The general attitude from the women was that we were the "wrong" moving in to the neighborhood.

+1, it absolutely happens. It happens on DCUM! It's happened in this thread. But for the people who engage in this behavior, they can't see it. They are narcissists and lack empathy, so they can't conceptualize relational aggression. To them, this is just how the world works. And there are so many people like this. I have learned to minimize my exposure to them and found ways to not allow their behavior to get under my skin, but I still see it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

Interesting. I've never understood the people who rush in to deny what the op is describing in their post. Most of us know this happens and it isn't just in suburban neighborhoods. It is so common. I think women get a lot of pressure to "bright side" things as if you get brownie points for trying to enforce the belief that life is all puppies, kittens, and rainbows. It isn't and people need help dealing with it. It's horrible to be unsympathetic to people who experience this.

Agreed. Some of the comments in this thread are just straight up gaslighting. Just denying people's experiences as misunderstandings or oversensitivity. That's what bullies say! "It was a joke, don't be so sensitive." This is how bullies behave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm 46 and have literally never met anyone like this, OP. I've lived in Europe and the US, and attended grade schools and universities in multiple countries. I know some comments can be interpreted in many different ways, and I always choose to take what people say ina. constructive manner.

If this keeps happening to you... consider you might be part of the problem, as in: you always gravitate towards the same toxic personalities, or you interpret innocuous comments in negative ways, or you actively do things to warrant criticism. Probably mostly #2, wouldn't you say?




Most people are kind and tolerant. Some of high-strung but well-meaning and definitely not looking to bully anyone. I'm willing to believe a few are bullies... but I haven't met anyone who goes out of their way to be mean.

And yet here you are on DCUM, proof to the contrary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

Not prior poster, but I'm a feminist and have seen this in every neighborhood I've lived in. Women are still raised to be pitted against each other. Watch some reality tv and see how it happens in every place. Women are still penalized for being direct so underhanded behavior is the way so many women deal with their issues.

Women raise themselves to be that way. Blaming men is a cheap excuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

Not prior poster, but I'm a feminist and have seen this in every neighborhood I've lived in. Women are still raised to be pitted against each other. Watch some reality tv and see how it happens in every place. Women are still penalized for being direct so underhanded behavior is the way so many women deal with their issues.

Women raise themselves to be that way. Blaming men is a cheap excuse.

It's an everyone thing. Women are definitely the main enforcers of these dynamics, but men benefit from it. It's all in service to patriarchy.

Something a lot of people don't understand is that women work HARD to reinforce the patriarchy. And women are misogynists. We perpetrate and are harmed by it. It's one of the ways that sexism is quite different from racism. Women buy into this idea that if they can just win the competition to be the best woman (pick me), then they can bend patriarchy to serve them. And some small number of very privileged women actually do succeed in this, generally by attaching themselves to a powerful and desirable man, usually by being physically attractive as defined by men, and by being very smart and socially savvy while also pretending not to be. And they generally win by screwing over other women.

It sucks but it's also how the world works.