Why are ivies and other elite NE schools out, southern schools in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We went south. Our kid wanted better weather, safety and happier kids. We looked north and everyone seems weirdly competitive and miserable even on tours. The reproductive argument is so crazy will not even entertain. Just be happy if you think small northern LAC are better. I am sure your kid will find a spot. People should just focus on what makes your kid happier just listen to what they want.

more copium. ivies and other elite highly competitive schools, which just happen to all be NE except Duke and Rice, have highly competitive kids. Your kid either thinks that's an awesome thrill to dive in and be with similar mindsets, or they don't. The former is the (unhooked) kids they typically pick anyway, so yours would not likely get in. Competitive is not always toxic, it is often quite collaborative. That is why top med and law and DCUM's favorite IB wallstreet consulting all preferentially pick from elite unis and WASP lacs. The vast majority of kids who go to these schools thrive on the atmosphere and are happy.

This has been rehashed a million times on here. Top law and med schools do not pick from elite schools. In fact, going to these schools makes getting into med school (and probably law) even harder. Why go to a miserably competitive school when you can be happy, great weather, great sports and get a med school boost?

Look at the rosters of T5 law schools. A FAR outsized portion are from elites. The prelaw advising at kid’s ivy tells them aim 3.7-3.8 for a T14, 3.9 for a T5. The average gpa is 3.8! Below avg gpa students going to T14 is a wide open road. The school has a pipeline to the t14s and presumably every other ivy /elite does too. Premed is the same, you can be 3.6, below average and get in to a (non-top 50) US med school. The 3.9s go to super elite med schools. 25% of premeds have a 3.9. If you are a kid with a low to mid 1500 SAT you will be average or above in premed or prelaw classes at these schools and you will do well. Only the very very top 2-3 kids get into T5 med or law from UMD, and only the top5% have a realistic chance at T14. , and there are far more than 2-3 mid 1500 kids there. Math and statistics don’t lie. Med and law schools do rank undergrad programs into tiers. I have been on said admissions committees and personally know many on peer schools. It matters. Maybe not as much as for quant or whatever but there are target undergrads for top med and top law too. And that matters because certain fields only hire from top law and top residency programs heavily favor top med schools. You can be a bottom kid at a T3 and and place into harvard surgery. Harvard cardiothoracic takes few students, unless underprivileged, from anywhere but top research med schools. Same with CHOP. Same with all elite programs. Prestige matters.

I've been in biglaw a pretty long time and spoken with law school admissions deans and it doesn't make much of a difference where you went to undergrad, noone thinks that it's any tougher to get a good GPA at Harvard than at Boston College, the grade inflation at ivy is legendary. There is frequently correlation between undergrad and law school because in theory the same things that will get you into a good college will get you into a good lawschool; but noone is trying to fill their law school class with ivy grads.

My sister is a Harvard trained doctor and she is a pretty involved alumni and they also don't want to fill their class with ivy league grads either.

In both cases the LSAT and the MCAT are the real hurdles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The WHY the topmost residencies care is because the top med schools have the hospitals that get the rare and difficult cases from all over the US and world. The students who come out of there have seen and done much more varied cases. This matters for medical fields that are not strictly outpatient primary care.

Correct. Top residencies tend to come from top med schools. Undergrad is irrelevant, except it is much more difficult to get good lab work and shadowing done where everyone is competing for the same jobs. Also much more difficult to get the perfect grades needed for top med.

I don't know how to break it to you but the hardest part about ivy is getting in. Like I said, the grade inflation is legendary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The WHY the topmost residencies care is because the top med schools have the hospitals that get the rare and difficult cases from all over the US and world. The students who come out of there have seen and done much more varied cases. This matters for medical fields that are not strictly outpatient primary care.

Correct. Top residencies tend to come from top med schools. Undergrad is irrelevant, except it is much more difficult to get good lab work and shadowing done where everyone is competing for the same jobs. Also much more difficult to get the perfect grades needed for top med.

That is the entirety of the point: top med schools have over half their class from the same 20-25 unis /lacs. These schools have relatively small numbers of premed applicants compared to state schools and yet they are hugely over-represented. Top med schools select far deeper into the class from top undergrads. Premed advising from ivies indicating 3.6 gets you into any US med, when a 3.6 is below avg for premed there, and a 3.9 gets you into TOP med, when 25% of premeds have that. 25% of premeds do NOT get into top med at non-elite schools. My kid goes to a different ivy than i went to and colleagues from non~ivy T10 undergrads: the top 25% of premeds go to top med schools and premeds with below average gpa get in somewhere. For a student who has scores to indicate they will almost certainly be average or above at the college, the elites are basically a guarantee. No one who has a below average gpa at UMD or UVa is getting into US med schools without significant yrs off and a masters in science w a 4.0. And less than 5% of premeds go to top med from UMD. Being top 5% at UMD means you need a 4.0 and stand out in every other way . You are underestimating how hard it is to be within top 5% at UMD. Being top 25% at an ivy is 3.9 and research in stem is basically guaranteed to every student who wants it. No fighting because there are so many options and professors looking.
Undergrad matters for top med schools. Same as top law schools, but the gpa cutoffs are different.

Now I know you've never been on an admissions committee. The GPA isn't usually the hurdle, the LSAT and MCAT is.

You should stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because most people have grown tired of DEI, wokeness and pro Hamas protests.

The pro Hamas protests during finals was pretty awful. I can't believe they didn't just shut that down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the southern schools are pulling away a few kids whose parents and grandparents went to northern ivies. These are wealthy families where they have nothing to prove and no need for the kid to have to grind through college and want college to be fun.

But no worries, there are still plenty of kids who do want to attend Ivies, including more from groups who were historically underrepresented.

Every generation, especially in wealthy families has something to prove.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son went south.

I agree that the big southern schools are not pulling kids away from Ivys or top 20 or even 30 schools. But they are now a desired choice for kids beyond that. So the middle tier northern schools are suffering

I'm pretty confident Vanderbilt, Duke, and Rice are very much pulling smart kids away from the Ivies today.

Yeah, sure but not Alabama and U Ga.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son went south.

I agree that the big southern schools are not pulling kids away from Ivys or top 20 or even 30 schools. But they are now a desired choice for kids beyond that. So the middle tier northern schools are suffering

I'm pretty confident Vanderbilt, Duke, and Rice are very much pulling smart kids away from the Ivies today.

Prove it. Let’s see some verifiable information.

I have seen a lot of kids wrestle with the decision between Duke and an Ivy before they choose the Ivy.
Duke is a very tempting package but in the end, the Ivy pull is pretty hard to resist.
I don't think anyone that goes to Duke is even the least bit sorry about not going to Ivy afterwards but if given a choice, they almost always take the Ivy offer.
At least for now.
I could see a situation developing where Duke becomes the Stanford of the South. With strong state options like UNC, UVA and Georgia Tech, there is plenty of room for a Stanford-like phenomenon to occur.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought all of the politics of the south made it toxic, yet all of my cousins in the DMV had absolutely zero desire to shoot for ivies or any of the other elite schools in the NE. They became enamored with the lifestyle on the campuses of southern schools by watching social media vids of girls getting ready to go to to tailgates at Alabama or UGA. Other types of of events and parties on the campuses of southern schools also had tons of social media coverage. The students themselves post the videos, so all of the southern schools get tons of free marketing. I heard this was also a big trend with all of the friends of my cousins - they’re applying to southern schools. Is the whole NE school a thing of the past?

These are not generally kids that can get into an elite school. If you said, Duke, USC, Rice, it would be a discussion but Alabama?

The median family income of a student at Alabama is about $130K. The median income of an Alabama graduate at age 34 is about $44K. The average SAT score is 1225.
University of Georgia is slightly better with the same family income and 49K median income at 34 with an average SAT score of 1310.


Meanwhile University of Virginia students have a median family income of $155K and the kids have a median income of 71K at age 34and an average SAT score of 1445.

MIT has a median family income of 137K and the kids have a median income of $99K at age 34 and an average SAT score of 1543
In fact the average SAT score for the ivies is 1500+

These kids aren't choosing Alabama over ivy, they are, they are going to Alabama/Georgia because its their best option.

Or they are going because it doesn’t cost as much.

No, they didn't get into ivy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son went south.

I agree that the big southern schools are not pulling kids away from Ivys or top 20 or even 30 schools. But they are now a desired choice for kids beyond that. So the middle tier northern schools are suffering

I'm pretty confident Vanderbilt, Duke, and Rice are very much pulling smart kids away from the Ivies today.

Prove it. Let’s see some verifiable information.

Vanderbilt, Duke, Rice, Stanford, Northwestern, Hopkins, Notre Dame, and Chicago tend to take most of their class in the ED round.

MIT seems to be neutral.

It's the rejects that end up in the Ivy League schools.

You know those Ivy League school have ED/EA rounds too right?

And how did Stanford, Hopkins, Northwestern, ND and Chicago end up on the list of southern schools.
Stanford only has early action and takes 25% through that I'm sure theer are others
In regular decision, noone that gets into Ivy goes to Vanderbilt or Rice and definitely not Tulane

[Anonymous]

I was just at O-week at Rice and I met several kids that turned down non-HYP Ivies for Rice.

[Anonymous]

We're in the DMV and know several class of 2024 kids at southern schools, but most of them landed at those schools after getting denied or W/L at their schools of choice. UGA was the exception. It was the 1st choice for the 2 kids we know there, but interestingly, we don't know any kids who picked Duke (has developed a grinder rep) or Emory. A few chose Vandy, but a significant % of kids heading south in this class chose U of SC. The biz school, town, the successful women's b-ball team & the swimming pool were big draws. The lower performing students chose 'Bama, Ole Miss, LSU & KY.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was just at O-week at Rice and I met several kids that turned down non-HYP Ivies for Rice.

Same at Vanderbilt.

I don't know if anyone turns down Harvard or Princeton. But the southern schools are definitely competitive with the rest of the Ivies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, they can do what they want, but I won't send my girls to the red states. And no, it's not because I think they have loose morals or whatever - I am genuinely worried about emergencies with their reproductive organs that docs in those states won't touch for fear of lawsuit. My soon to be freshman has already been told she might need a hysterectomy if other things don't work to fix her numerous issues.

So, for those heading off to these states, I hope for the best and that worst case scenario DOESN'T hit you.

Do you pinky promise?
Please don’t just say this. Really REALLY commit to
Keeping your ideaology OUT of my conservative state please???
I know the economy and our policies make our state look super appealing for jobs and buying a house and all that. But then y’all come flooding in and bring your crazy politics with you.
It’s empty promises and we’re ready for you to deliver already. Stay where you’re at in your liberal lefty heaven.

Trust me, I’m not touching your anti woman, anti-lgbtq, etc states at this point. My husband’s family is in TX and I am beyond glad that our plan to move there did NOT work out.

I am perfectly happy in my purple state, but am also happy to cross the Potomac back to my birth state OR go further north to where my dad’s family started which happens to be the state my child chose for school.

And we are keeping options open in worst case scenario if we need to get my teen somewhere safe within the next year. Getting her passport in order. I’ll figure out the rest of the family later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, they can do what they want, but I won't send my girls to the red states. And no, it's not because I think they have loose morals or whatever - I am genuinely worried about emergencies with their reproductive organs that docs in those states won't touch for fear of lawsuit. My soon to be freshman has already been told she might need a hysterectomy if other things don't work to fix her numerous issues.

So, for those heading off to these states, I hope for the best and that worst case scenario DOESN'T hit you.

Whatever. As if you would let your child get a hysterectomy anywhere else but home. Your point is ridiculous. It is as unlikely to be a factor in Houston TX as it is in the middle of nowhere New Hampshire.

LOL!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Kids with perfect scores and grades and impressive ECs at our suburban high school still apply to ivies in droves, but almost none get in. Same for Georgetown, Vanderbilt and Duke. Many end up at big state schools instead.