What happens when religion and ideology conflict?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Discriminating against and harming anyone based on belief is wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Please specify what specifically “anti trans” legislation entails. Are you referring to teaching children it is not possible to change their biological sex?


We’ll stop talking about our cis-gender beliefs Just as soon as you stop forcing people to pretend that feelings or body modifications change a person’s sex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Please specify what specifically “anti trans” legislation entails. Are you referring to teaching children it is not possible to change their biological sex?


We’ll stop talking about our cis-gender beliefs Just as soon as you stop forcing people to pretend that feelings or body modifications change a person’s sex.

Sounds like we can solve this whole issue right now. No one is doing either of those things.

No one is teaching anyone that “it’s possible to change their biological sex”.

And there is no need for you to pretend that anyone’s biological sex has changed.

No one is changing XX/XY.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

To that end—if someone believed that murdering a pre-born human that has a beating heart and is capable of feeling pain is perfectly okay, to what extent should this be tolerated?
What about a botched abortion where the baby is delivered but is still breathing? Is it okay to kill it then, since the mom had meant to abort it? Should that be tolerated? (virginias former Governor Northam thinks it’s worth a “discussion” with the mom while the baby is kept comfortable. Do you tolerate that?)

I'm pro-choice and believe Roe should never have been overturned. The only dispute was when the baby was "viable". Because abortion after viability is the core dispute at that point. Majority rules. Let the people vote on viability with exceptions...and codify it.

The overturn of Roe v Wade does exactly as you suggest in the latter part of your paragraph.
It puts this back into the hands of the states and allows the majority of each state to determine its own laws with respect to life and termination of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Please specify what specifically “anti trans” legislation entails. Are you referring to teaching children it is not possible to change their biological sex?


We’ll stop talking about our cis-gender beliefs Just as soon as you stop forcing people to pretend that feelings or body modifications change a person’s sex.

Sounds like we can solve this whole issue right now. No one is doing either of those things.

No one is teaching anyone that “it’s possible to change their biological sex”.

And there is no need for you to pretend that anyone’s biological sex has changed.

No one is changing XX/XY.

This is the “that isn’t happening” portion of the liberal argument.
It comes just before the realization by those saying that it’s not happening that “oh—wait that’s exactly what is happening but ummmmmmm….here’s why it’s a good thing that it’s happening” and then that’s typically followed by the “you’re crazy—no one ever said that wasn’t happening. Of course it is amd no one ever claimed it wasn’t” argument

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Please specify what specifically “anti trans” legislation entails. Are you referring to teaching children it is not possible to change their biological sex?


We’ll stop talking about our cis-gender beliefs Just as soon as you stop forcing people to pretend that feelings or body modifications change a person’s sex.

Sounds like we can solve this whole issue right now. No one is doing either of those things.

No one is teaching anyone that “it’s possible to change their biological sex”.

And there is no need for you to pretend that anyone’s biological sex has changed.

No one is changing XX/XY.

This is the “that isn’t happening” portion of the liberal argument.
It comes just before the realization by those saying that it’s not happening that “oh—wait that’s exactly what is happening but ummmmmmm….here’s why it’s a good thing that it’s happening” and then that’s typically followed by the “you’re crazy—no one ever said that wasn’t happening. Of course it is amd no one ever claimed it wasn’t” argument

Ok. Which school is teaching that it’s possible to “change biological sex”?

Link please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

To that end—if someone believed that murdering a pre-born human that has a beating heart and is capable of feeling pain is perfectly okay, to what extent should this be tolerated?
What about a botched abortion where the baby is delivered but is still breathing? Is it okay to kill it then, since the mom had meant to abort it? Should that be tolerated? (virginias former Governor Northam thinks it’s worth a “discussion” with the mom while the baby is kept comfortable. Do you tolerate that?)

I'm pro-choice and believe Roe should never have been overturned. The only dispute was when the baby was "viable". Because abortion after viability is the core dispute at that point. Majority rules. Let the people vote on viability with exceptions...and codify it.

The overturn of Roe v Wade does exactly as you suggest in the latter part of your paragraph.
It puts this back into the hands of the states and allows the majority of each state to determine its own laws with respect to life and termination of it.

Except the first part of the PP’s paragraph was the important bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

To that end—if someone believed that murdering a pre-born human that has a beating heart and is capable of feeling pain is perfectly okay, to what extent should this be tolerated?
What about a botched abortion where the baby is delivered but is still breathing? Is it okay to kill it then, since the mom had meant to abort it? Should that be tolerated? (virginias former Governor Northam thinks it’s worth a “discussion” with the mom while the baby is kept comfortable. Do you tolerate that?)

I'm pro-choice and believe Roe should never have been overturned. The only dispute was when the baby was "viable". Because abortion after viability is the core dispute at that point. Majority rules. Let the people vote on viability with exceptions...and codify it.

The overturn of Roe v Wade does exactly as you suggest in the latter part of your paragraph.
It puts this back into the hands of the states and allows the majority of each state to determine its own laws with respect to life and termination of it.

Except no, no really. The Dem or Rep governing body determined it's own laws...I mean put it on a ballot and let everyone vote. First, make a federal law that does not allow for the criminalization of abortion. Then allow each state to vote (everyone via ballot) as to the viability of life and exceptions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

To that end—if someone believed that murdering a pre-born human that has a beating heart and is capable of feeling pain is perfectly okay, to what extent should this be tolerated?
What about a botched abortion where the baby is delivered but is still breathing? Is it okay to kill it then, since the mom had meant to abort it? Should that be tolerated? (virginias former Governor Northam thinks it’s worth a “discussion” with the mom while the baby is kept comfortable. Do you tolerate that?)

I'm pro-choice and believe Roe should never have been overturned. The only dispute was when the baby was "viable". Because abortion after viability is the core dispute at that point. Majority rules. Let the people vote on viability with exceptions...and codify it.

The overturn of Roe v Wade does exactly as you suggest in the latter part of your paragraph.
It puts this back into the hands of the states and allows the majority of each state to determine its own laws with respect to life and termination of it.

Except no, no really. The Dem or Rep governing body determined it's own laws...I mean put it on a ballot and let everyone vote. First, make a federal law that does not allow for the criminalization of abortion. Then allow each state to vote (everyone via ballot) as to the viability of life and exceptions.

And then codify it into law.