What happens when religion and ideology conflict?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

Teach that everyone should respect other people’s belief (whether a reliqious or ideological belief) in gender identity. Gender identity is a belief.

So if teaching gender identity...teach it holistically....gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong. If a child comes in and says I believe cisgender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. That just be respected. They should also respect it should another student say they believe in non-binary gender. It's OK to have different beliefs. But don’t teach children only one belief on gender identity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

Teach that everyone should respect other people’s belief (whether a reliqious or ideological belief) in gender identity. Gender identity is a belief.

So if teaching gender identity...teach it holistically....gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong. If a child comes in and says I believe cisgender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. That just be respected. They should also respect it should another student say they believe in non-binary gender. It's OK to have different beliefs. But don’t teach children only one belief on gender identity.

Gender identity isn’t right or wrong. It just is what it is. And it’s fluid.

Being a bigot isn’t a protected “belief”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

Teach that everyone should respect other people’s belief (whether a reliqious or ideological belief) in gender identity. Gender identity is a belief.

So if teaching gender identity...teach it holistically....gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong. If a child comes in and says I believe cisgender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. That just be respected. They should also respect it should another student say they believe in non-binary gender. It's OK to have different beliefs. But don’t teach children only one belief on gender identity.

Gender identity isn’t right or wrong. It just is what it is. And it’s fluid.

Being a bigot isn’t a protected “belief”.

You are a hypocrite....you just agreed with me that gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong.

Yet if I state that I tolerate and repect your personal belief that gender identity is fluid. You don't think I deserve the same tolerance and respect if I believe it's not? Wow.

The hypocrisy. Tolerance and respect is a two way street. Go ahead and call me any derogatory name you want (note, not once in this entire thread nor in my entire life have I ever used a derogatory remark towards anyone who believes gender identity is fluid)....I'll rise above it now because you're just a hypocrite.

I do not have the right to tell you what your belief should be. But you also do not have the right to tell me what my belief should be.

So I will continue teaching my children and grandchildren to tolerate and respect all beliefs. To treat everyone the same regardless of their beliefs. At the same time I will teach them to be individuals with their own values and beliefs...that it is okay to not agree with a belief so long as you still respect it and you are still respected in return for your belief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

Teach that everyone should respect other people’s belief (whether a reliqious or ideological belief) in gender identity. Gender identity is a belief.

So if teaching gender identity...teach it holistically....gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong. If a child comes in and says I believe cisgender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. That just be respected. They should also respect it should another student say they believe in non-binary gender. It's OK to have different beliefs. But don’t teach children only one belief on gender identity.

Gender identity isn’t right or wrong. It just is what it is. And it’s fluid.

Being a bigot isn’t a protected “belief”.

You are a hypocrite....you just agreed with me that gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong.

Yet if I state that I tolerate and repect your personal belief that gender identity is fluid. You don't think I deserve the same tolerance and respect if I believe it's not? Wow.

The hypocrisy. Tolerance and respect is a two way street. Go ahead and call me any derogatory name you want (note, not once in this entire thread nor in my entire life have I ever used a derogatory remark towards anyone who believes gender identity is fluid)....I'll rise above it now because you're just a hypocrite.

I do not have the right to tell you what your belief should be. But you also do not have the right to tell me what my belief should be.

So I will continue teaching my children and grandchildren to tolerate and respect all gender identity beliefs. To treat everyone the same regardless of their gender identity beliefs. At the same time I will teach them to be individuals with their own values and gender identity beliefs...that it is okay to not agree with a gender identity belief so long as you still respect it and you are still respected in return for your gender identity belief.

^correction to clarify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

Teach that everyone should respect other people’s belief (whether a reliqious or ideological belief) in gender identity. Gender identity is a belief.

So if teaching gender identity...teach it holistically....gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong. If a child comes in and says I believe cisgender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. That just be respected. They should also respect it should another student say they believe in non-binary gender. It's OK to have different beliefs. But don’t teach children only one belief on gender identity.

Gender identity isn’t right or wrong. It just is what it is. And it’s fluid.

Being a bigot isn’t a protected “belief”.

You are a hypocrite....you just agreed with me that gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong.

Yet if I state that I tolerate and repect your personal belief that gender identity is fluid. You don't think I deserve the same tolerance and respect if I believe it's not? Wow.

The hypocrisy. Tolerance and respect is a two way street. Go ahead and call me any derogatory name you want (note, not once in this entire thread nor in my entire life have I ever used a derogatory remark towards anyone who believes gender identity is fluid)....I'll rise above it now because you're just a hypocrite.

I do not have the right to tell you what your belief should be. But you also do not have the right to tell me what my belief should be.

So I will continue teaching my children and grandchildren to tolerate and respect all beliefs. To treat everyone the same regardless of their beliefs. At the same time I will teach them to be individuals with their own values and beliefs...that it is okay to not agree with a belief so long as you still respect it and you are still respected in return for your belief.

No one is telling you what to believe. And maybe you’re confusing terms and concepts a bit. But there is no right or wrong gender identity for any particular person. It just is what it is.

You can certainly believe otherwise (clearly all of your beliefs aren’t totally grounded in reality), but expressing it outwardly is hurtful and disrespectful. For someone so “concerned” about respect you might want to reflect on that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no right or wrong when it comes to gender identity.....it's not wrong to believe in cisgenderism and it's not wrong to believe in transgenderism.

You know what is wrong? It's wrong to not tolerate and respect one another's beliefs.

If you want to know why the RWNJs populism rose to nearly represent half of our society (while using Trump as their puppet)...it's because the LWNJs forgot all about Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society. They went too far and crossed the line. Now the RWNJs are going too far and crossing the line back and with great fervor with lack of Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society.

So I have no hope for our fractured society. If Trump wins you know who I will actually blame? The LWNJs who have no Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society. If Harris wins I will likewise blame the RWNJs who have no Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society.

My problem is without Tolerance and Respect we are a doomed society. So if you truly want to know what my belief is today? Our society is doomed.

Signed a closet Christian.

Math is not your friend. RWNJs are not “the majority” of our society.

Rs voting for Trump has nothing to do with the level of “Tolerance and Respect” from Democrats. It has everything to do with the R’s own lack of T&R. They are 100% responsible for their own depravity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

To that end—if someone believed that murdering a pre-born human that has a beating heart and is capable of feeling pain is perfectly okay, to what extent should this be tolerated?
What about a botched abortion where the baby is delivered but is still breathing? Is it okay to kill it then, since the mom had meant to abort it? Should that be tolerated? (virginias former Governor Northam thinks it’s worth a “discussion” with the mom while the baby is kept comfortable. Do you tolerate that?)

You are misrepresenting what he said.

He said if a non-viable baby was born (not aborted) it should be kept comfortable until the mother could decide the extent of life support.

“If a mother is in labor [with non-viable baby], the infant would be delivered, the infant would be kept comfortable, the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.”

Crickets…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

Teach that everyone should respect other people’s belief (whether a reliqious or ideological belief) in gender identity. Gender identity is a belief.

So if teaching gender identity...teach it holistically....gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong. If a child comes in and says I believe cisgender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. That just be respected. They should also respect it should another student say they believe in non-binary gender. It's OK to have different beliefs. But don’t teach children only one belief on gender identity.

Gender identity isn’t right or wrong. It just is what it is. And it’s fluid.

Being a bigot isn’t a protected “belief”.

You are a hypocrite....you just agreed with me that gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong.

Yet if I state that I tolerate and repect your personal belief that gender identity is fluid. You don't think I deserve the same tolerance and respect if I believe it's not? Wow.

The hypocrisy. Tolerance and respect is a two way street. Go ahead and call me any derogatory name you want (note, not once in this entire thread nor in my entire life have I ever used a derogatory remark towards anyone who believes gender identity is fluid)....I'll rise above it now because you're just a hypocrite.

I do not have the right to tell you what your belief should be. But you also do not have the right to tell me what my belief should be.

So I will continue teaching my children and grandchildren to tolerate and respect all beliefs. To treat everyone the same regardless of their beliefs. At the same time I will teach them to be individuals with their own values and beliefs...that it is okay to not agree with a belief so long as you still respect it and you are still respected in return for your belief.

No one is telling you what to believe. And maybe you’re confusing terms and concepts a bit. But there is no right or wrong gender identity for any particular person. It just is what it is.

You can certainly believe otherwise (clearly all of your beliefs aren’t totally grounded in reality), but expressing it outwardly is hurtful and disrespectful. For someone so “concerned” about respect you might want to reflect on that.

How is expressing my belief that gender identity correlates to biological sex hurtful and disrespectful? I am not saying you can't believe otherwise. You do you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no right or wrong when it comes to gender identity.....it's not wrong to believe in cisgenderism and it's not wrong to believe in transgenderism.

You know what is wrong? It's wrong to not tolerate and respect one another's beliefs.

If you want to know why the RWNJs populism rose to nearly represent half of our society (while using Trump as their puppet)...it's because the LWNJs forgot all about Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society. They went too far and crossed the line. Now the RWNJs are going too far and crossing the line back and with great fervor with lack of Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society.

So I have no hope for our fractured society. If Trump wins you know who I will actually blame? The LWNJs who have no Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society. If Harris wins I will likewise blame the RWNJs who have no Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society.

My problem is without Tolerance and Respect we are a doomed society. So if you truly want to know what my belief is today? Our society is doomed.

Signed a closet Christian.

Math is not your friend. RWNJs are not “the majority” of our society.

Rs voting for Trump has nothing to do with the level of “Tolerance and Respect” from Democrats. It has everything to do with the R’s own lack of T&R. They are 100% responsible for their own depravity.

Please reread. I never said majority...I said "rose to represent nearly half". And I totally agree the RWNJs lack of tolerance and respect is abysmal and wrong. But please know there is, although perhaps not to the same extreme, also LWNJs lack of tolerance and respect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no right or wrong when it comes to gender identity.....it's not wrong to believe in cisgenderism and it's not wrong to believe in transgenderism.

You know what is wrong? It's wrong to not tolerate and respect one another's beliefs.

If you want to know why the RWNJs populism rose to nearly represent half of our society (while using Trump as their puppet)...it's because the LWNJs forgot all about Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society. They went too far and crossed the line. Now the RWNJs are going too far and crossing the line back and with great fervor with lack of Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society.

So I have no hope for our fractured society. If Trump wins you know who I will actually blame? The LWNJs who have no Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society. If Harris wins I will likewise blame the RWNJs who have no Tolerance and Respect for the majority of our society.

My problem is without Tolerance and Respect we are a doomed society. So if you truly want to know what my belief is today? Our society is doomed.

Signed a closet Christian.

Math is not your friend. RWNJs are not “the majority” of our society.

Rs voting for Trump has nothing to do with the level of “Tolerance and Respect” from Democrats. It has everything to do with the R’s own lack of T&R. They are 100% responsible for their own depravity.

I respectfully disagree. I know many Rs who are indeed voting for Trump because of the D's lack of tolerance and respect. And I'd be one of them too except I am putting the abortion issue higher as my reason to vote D.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

Teach that everyone should respect other people’s belief (whether a reliqious or ideological belief) in gender identity. Gender identity is a belief.

So if teaching gender identity...teach it holistically....gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong. If a child comes in and says I believe cisgender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. That just be respected. They should also respect it should another student say they believe in non-binary gender. It's OK to have different beliefs. But don’t teach children only one belief on gender identity.

Gender identity isn’t right or wrong. It just is what it is. And it’s fluid.

Being a bigot isn’t a protected “belief”.

You are a hypocrite....you just agreed with me that gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong.

Yet if I state that I tolerate and repect your personal belief that gender identity is fluid. You don't think I deserve the same tolerance and respect if I believe it's not? Wow.

The hypocrisy. Tolerance and respect is a two way street. Go ahead and call me any derogatory name you want (note, not once in this entire thread nor in my entire life have I ever used a derogatory remark towards anyone who believes gender identity is fluid)....I'll rise above it now because you're just a hypocrite.

I do not have the right to tell you what your belief should be. But you also do not have the right to tell me what my belief should be.

So I will continue teaching my children and grandchildren to tolerate and respect all beliefs. To treat everyone the same regardless of their beliefs. At the same time I will teach them to be individuals with their own values and beliefs...that it is okay to not agree with a belief so long as you still respect it and you are still respected in return for your belief.

No one is telling you what to believe. And maybe you’re confusing terms and concepts a bit. But there is no right or wrong gender identity for any particular person. It just is what it is.

You can certainly believe otherwise (clearly all of your beliefs aren’t totally grounded in reality), but expressing it outwardly is hurtful and disrespectful. For someone so “concerned” about respect you might want to reflect on that.

I find your statement equally hurtful and disrespectful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

Teach that everyone should respect other people’s belief (whether a reliqious or ideological belief) in gender identity. Gender identity is a belief.

So if teaching gender identity...teach it holistically....gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong. If a child comes in and says I believe cisgender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. That just be respected. They should also respect it should another student say they believe in non-binary gender. It's OK to have different beliefs. But don’t teach children only one belief on gender identity.

Gender identity isn’t right or wrong. It just is what it is. And it’s fluid.

Being a bigot isn’t a protected “belief”.

You are a hypocrite....you just agreed with me that gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong.

Yet if I state that I tolerate and repect your personal belief that gender identity is fluid. You don't think I deserve the same tolerance and respect if I believe it's not? Wow.

The hypocrisy. Tolerance and respect is a two way street. Go ahead and call me any derogatory name you want (note, not once in this entire thread nor in my entire life have I ever used a derogatory remark towards anyone who believes gender identity is fluid)....I'll rise above it now because you're just a hypocrite.

I do not have the right to tell you what your belief should be. But you also do not have the right to tell me what my belief should be.

So I will continue teaching my children and grandchildren to tolerate and respect all beliefs. To treat everyone the same regardless of their beliefs. At the same time I will teach them to be individuals with their own values and beliefs...that it is okay to not agree with a belief so long as you still respect it and you are still respected in return for your belief.

No one is telling you what to believe. And maybe you’re confusing terms and concepts a bit. But there is no right or wrong gender identity for any particular person. It just is what it is.

You can certainly believe otherwise (clearly all of your beliefs aren’t totally grounded in reality), but expressing it outwardly is hurtful and disrespectful. For someone so “concerned” about respect you might want to reflect on that.

I find your statement equally hurtful and disrespectful.

Actually I find your statement ironic...clearly all of your [gender identity] beliefs aren’t totally grounded in reality

Well no, of course not. Gender identity is a belief. A belief is not totally grounded in reality.

So any gender identity belief is therefore not totally grounded in reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Please specify what specifically “anti trans” legislation entails. Are you referring to teaching children it is not possible to change their biological sex?


We’ll stop talking about our cis-gender beliefs Just as soon as you stop forcing people to pretend that feelings or body modifications change a person’s sex.

Sounds like we can solve this whole issue right now. No one is doing either of those things.

No one is teaching anyone that “it’s possible to change their biological sex”.

And there is no need for you to pretend that anyone’s biological sex has changed.

No one is changing XX/XY.

Great! Why are schools teaching kids they can choose to be a boy or a girl?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

Teach that everyone should respect other people’s belief (whether a reliqious or ideological belief) in gender identity. Gender identity is a belief.

So if teaching gender identity...teach it holistically....gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong. If a child comes in and says I believe cisgender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. That just be respected. They should also respect it should another student say they believe in non-binary gender. It's OK to have different beliefs. But don’t teach children only one belief on gender identity.

Gender identity isn’t right or wrong. It just is what it is. And it’s fluid.

Being a bigot isn’t a protected “belief”.

Yawn. You realize if you call everyone who disagrees with you a bigot then you’re probably the bigot right?

1A means that cis-gender beliefs (otherwise known as science or evolutionary biology) are protected speech.

I thought Libs believed in science?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not believing in one portion of your religion does not create a whole new religion. GMAFB.

The only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is to get your religion out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what happens with other people’s genitals.

I agree with you - the separation of Church and State is sacred and lines have been blurred (neither religion nor ideological beliefs belong in public schools)....but to my point...the only way we could possibly “agree to disagree” is for you to also accept that some people have the religious right to believe in and teach their children on cis-genderism...to get your ideological beliefs out of other people’s lives. Stop trying to control what other people believe when it comes to gender identity.

People having a sense of self isn’t “ideological beliefs”.

You can believe whatever you want at home. If you start taking steps to hurt others because of your “beliefs”, that’s an issue.

Agree to disagree. Because IMHO "sense of self" is a belief.

Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you. Personality traits, abilities, likes and dislikes, your belief system or moral code, and the things that motivate you — these all contribute to self-image or your unique identity as a person.
Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/sense-of-self

But here's the thing, either way I respect all beliefs. Get it?

“Sense of self” is not an “ideological belief”.

Of course it is a belief. What do you think it is? Science?

There are all kinds of “beliefs”. It’s not an ideological belief.

So we all agree that it's a belief? Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs.

So here's the thing -- saying gender identity is an ideological belief is not "wrong" - it's all about the context and perspective. If you are referring to gender identity based on political, cultural, or religious beliefs...then yes, it is an ideological belief.

So based on your political, cultural, or religious beliefs you argue that gender identity is not an ideological belief. But based on my political, cultural, or religious beliefs I argue that gender identity ISan ideological belief.

...and we have to agree to disagree.

^correction

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? It is not OK to agree to disagree on this topic.

Some people refuse to believe feelings and body modifications change individuals from female to male, while others insist that the government impose policies in accordance with this belief.

The belief in something does not make it true, does not make it right or wrong.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.
Some people believe that feelings and body modifications does not change an individual's biological sex at birth from female to male.

They are both beliefs, neither one is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

So it is everyone's right to refuse to believe in one or the other...whether based on religious or ideological beliefs. And the fact that neither side can see this is what is frustrating....and what is polarizing our nation more and more.

Both sides must learn to tolerate and accept one another. To respect one another.

No, you are conflating sex and gender. Sex never changes. You are always XX or XY.

You can believe what you want as long as you are not infringing on other people’s rights (liberty, privacy).

You can legally be a jerk but don’t be surprised that people will call you out about it.

I stand corrected and agree...my above statements where confusing. Biological sex at birth does not change. The gender identity tied to the biological sex at birth is a disputable issue. It is the belief whether gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth or not that is an issue, and what I mean when I state neither belief is indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

I believe that gender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.
Another person may believe that gender identity is not tied to biological sex at birth. This belief is also not indisputably true or false, right or wrong.

But both people must tolerate and accept each other's beliefs - respect each other's beliefs. That's all I am getting at. Neither side is doing this right now.

It all depends on how you are expressing your beliefs.

If someone believes that slavery is justified to what extent should that be tolerated?

+1
Two months ago, the dad who killed all 3 of his sons used the Bible to justify his actions to his kids and wife. People can twist ANY religion to justify the worst ideologies and actions.
https://www.aol.com/news/ohio-dad-read-bible-told-154233836.html

Geez people...so long as a belief does not harm anyone it should be tolerated and respected.

People relating this to slavery and murder....of course that's wrong.

Gender conversion therapy is wrong.

I mean everyone has lost their common sense.

Where is the harm to anyone in believing that gender identity is tied to sex at birth? So long as I don't impose/force those beliefs on others and so long as I don't harm anyone based on those beliefs.

Great. You do that.

You too. Goes both ways.

Great. So no more pot-stirring threads about “religion”? No more ”separation of church and state”? No more anti-trans legislation?

Correct.
The only issue I want to discuss (not stir) is that the separation of church and state is antiquated..it should be expanded to separation of religion AND belief and state. Neither religion nor beliefs on gender identity belong in schools. Stick to the indisputable scientific topics of sex. Leave the disputable topic of gender identity which is based on belief out.

Because once you open the door on teaching based on beliefs you open the door to teaching on all other beliefs. If you want to teach gender identity then you can't complain when someone wants to teach about other beliefs such as 10 Commandments.

Correct. No more anti-trans legislation. No more anti-religious or belief legislation. No more anti-abortion legislation.

Then we are going to have to throw out all sorts of beliefs at school:
You shouldn't lie.
Stealing is bad.
You should be nice to people.
You should help people in need.
Girls should have the same opportunities as boys.
Racism is bad.

Secularism itself is a belief. Heck, so is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Throw all of those out too?


Respecting other people’s identity isn’t a religious belief.

Teach that everyone should respect other people’s belief (whether a reliqious or ideological belief) in gender identity. Gender identity is a belief.

So if teaching gender identity...teach it holistically....gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong. If a child comes in and says I believe cisgender identity is tied to biological sex at birth. That just be respected. They should also respect it should another student say they believe in non-binary gender. It's OK to have different beliefs. But don’t teach children only one belief on gender identity.

Gender identity isn’t right or wrong. It just is what it is. And it’s fluid.

Being a bigot isn’t a protected “belief”.

You are a hypocrite....you just agreed with me that gender identity is not indisputabley true or false, right or wrong.

Yet if I state that I tolerate and repect your personal belief that gender identity is fluid. You don't think I deserve the same tolerance and respect if I believe it's not? Wow.

The hypocrisy. Tolerance and respect is a two way street. Go ahead and call me any derogatory name you want (note, not once in this entire thread nor in my entire life have I ever used a derogatory remark towards anyone who believes gender identity is fluid)....I'll rise above it now because you're just a hypocrite.

I do not have the right to tell you what your belief should be. But you also do not have the right to tell me what my belief should be.

So I will continue teaching my children and grandchildren to tolerate and respect all beliefs. To treat everyone the same regardless of their beliefs. At the same time I will teach them to be individuals with their own values and beliefs...that it is okay to not agree with a belief so long as you still respect it and you are still respected in return for your belief.

No one is telling you what to believe. And maybe you’re confusing terms and concepts a bit. But there is no right or wrong gender identity for any particular person. It just is what it is.

You can certainly believe otherwise (clearly all of your beliefs aren’t totally grounded in reality), but expressing it outwardly is hurtful and disrespectful. For someone so “concerned” about respect you might want to reflect on that.

How is expressing my belief that gender identity correlates to biological sex hurtful and disrespectful? I am not saying you can't believe otherwise. You do you.

You can express it all you want. But that’s not enough for you is it?

You need to teach other people’s kids that your unscientific, superficial natural belief (or religious, delusions, or mental illness) are in fact, factually correct.