What happens when religion and ideology conflict?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For purposes of U.S. employment law and religious discrimination, the answer is yes:

"The law protects not only people who belong to traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs."

https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination

And from the Supreme Court on religion under the Universal Military Training and Service Act re: conscientious objectors:

"The test of religious belief within the meaning of the exemption in § 6(j) is whether it is a sincere and meaningful belief occupying in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualified for the exemption. Pp. 380 U. S. 173-180. United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is ideology akin to religion? Because I believe this is where the true conflict is. Should a specific ideology be considered a type of religion? The term "ideology" in and of itself is basically a "set of ideas, beliefs, and attitudes." So, in theory ideologies and religions can be one and the same right?

Should a specific ideology be considered the same as a religious belief? And therefore, be given the same treatment when it comes to separation of church and state?

Absolutely. A firmly held set of beliefs that cannot be scientifically proven based on which one sets their moral framework of what is good versus evil, that's a religion.

Not without some element of supernatural forces.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is ideology akin to religion? Because I believe this is where the true conflict is. Should a specific ideology be considered a type of religion? The term "ideology" in and of itself is basically a "set of ideas, beliefs, and attitudes." So, in theory ideologies and religions can be one and the same right?

Should a specific ideology be considered the same as a religious belief? And therefore, be given the same treatment when it comes to separation of church and state?

Absolutely. A firmly held set of beliefs that cannot be scientifically proven based on which one sets their moral framework of what is good versus evil, that's a religion.

Morality always derives from unobservable and unproven beliefs. Who gets to decide what is good and what is evil?

[Anonymous]

OP here...this is what I was looking for:

For purposes of U.S. employment law and religious discrimination, the answer is yes:

"The law protects not only people who belong to traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs."

https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination

AND

And from the Supreme Court on religion under the Universal Military Training and Service Act re: conscientious objectors:

"The test of religious belief within the meaning of the exemption in § 6(j) is whether it is a sincere and meaningful belief occupying in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualified for the exemption. Pp. 380 U. S. 173-180. United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965).

So if the answer is yes...and ideology is akin to religion...can we not all agree on points 1 and 2 below?

1. We need Separation of Church and State (religious beliefs should not be taught in public schools).
2. These religious beliefs should be inclusive of traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs.

Many people of faith, including Christians and adherents of minority faiths, strongly support the separation of church and state as a core component of religious liberty. They recognize, as did James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and other of our nation’s founders, that [i]religious freedom thrives best when government officials don’t tip the scales toward their favored religious beliefs.[/i]

And based on points 1 and 2...can we not all agree on points 3 and 4 below?

3. Posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a breach of the Separation of Church and State.
...but also, at the same time....
4. Teaching gender ideology (which, according to above, is akin to a religious belief) in public schools is also breach of the Separation of Church and State.

It's a valid question because while I am a Christian, I have always been a firm believer in the separation of Church and State.
I do not believe we should be posting the 10 Commandments in public schools.
At the same time, no other religions or beliefs (i.e., gender ideology) should be taught in public schools either.

Because, if we are going to allow one we must then allow the other....which is why the lines between church and state have blurred.

Neither should be allowed - solving everyone's problem.

[Anonymous]

Gender is not a belief system or ideology, it's biology + psychology + sociology. It doesn't have "a place parallel to that filled by the God."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Gender is not a belief system or ideology, it's biology + psychology + sociology. It doesn't have "a place parallel to that filled by the God."

Then what about this argument:

Gender identity ideology has already been made into an official religion. The Terasem Movement Foundation(TMF), which has its headquarters in Vermont, is part of the transhumanist movement. Terasem was founded by Martine and Bina Rothblatt and includes the so called Terasem Movement Transreligion and the belief that nanotechnology and cyber consciousness have the potential to relieve human suffering and extend human life. Suffering and death are key concerns across all religions. One of the four key beliefs of Terasem faith is that god is technological.

Source: https://colettecolfer.substack.com/p/gender-ideology-as-a-religion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here...this is what I was looking for:

For purposes of U.S. employment law and religious discrimination, the answer is yes:

"The law protects not only people who belong to traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs."

https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination

AND

And from the Supreme Court on religion under the Universal Military Training and Service Act re: conscientious objectors:

"The test of religious belief within the meaning of the exemption in § 6(j) is whether it is a sincere and meaningful belief occupying in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualified for the exemption. Pp. 380 U. S. 173-180. United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965).

So if the answer is yes...and ideology is akin to religion...can we not all agree on points 1 and 2 below?

1. We need Separation of Church and State (religious beliefs should not be taught in public schools).
2. These religious beliefs should be inclusive of traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs.

Many people of faith, including Christians and adherents of minority faiths, strongly support the separation of church and state as a core component of religious liberty. They recognize, as did James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and other of our nation’s founders, that [i]religious freedom thrives best when government officials don’t tip the scales toward their favored religious beliefs.[/i]

And based on points 1 and 2...can we not all agree on points 3 and 4 below?

3. Posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a breach of the Separation of Church and State.
...but also, at the same time....
4. Teaching gender ideology (which, according to above, is akin to a religious belief) in public schools is also breach of the Separation of Church and State.

It's a valid question because while I am a Christian, I have always been a firm believer in the separation of Church and State.
I do not believe we should be posting the 10 Commandments in public schools.
At the same time, no other religions or beliefs (i.e., gender ideology) should be taught in public schools either.

Because, if we are going to allow one we must then allow the other....which is why the lines between church and state have blurred.

Neither should be allowed - solving everyone's problem.

Great question. I’m an atheist and could not agree with you more.

Good luck having any real discussion, posts which point out that gender ideology is essentially a religion are always deleted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Gender is not a belief system or ideology, it's biology + psychology + sociology. It doesn't have "a place parallel to that filled by the God."

False. Biology is evolution and chromosomes. Gender ideology is based on the concept of gender identity which is the idea of an unobservable feeling about one’s self, most closely resembling the Christian belief of a “soul”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...this is what I was looking for:

For purposes of U.S. employment law and religious discrimination, the answer is yes:

"The law protects not only people who belong to traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs."

https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination

AND

And from the Supreme Court on religion under the Universal Military Training and Service Act re: conscientious objectors:

"The test of religious belief within the meaning of the exemption in § 6(j) is whether it is a sincere and meaningful belief occupying in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualified for the exemption. Pp. 380 U. S. 173-180. United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965).

So if the answer is yes...and ideology is akin to religion...can we not all agree on points 1 and 2 below?

1. We need Separation of Church and State (religious beliefs should not be taught in public schools).
2. These religious beliefs should be inclusive of traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs.

Many people of faith, including Christians and adherents of minority faiths, strongly support the separation of church and state as a core component of religious liberty. They recognize, as did James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and other of our nation’s founders, that [i]religious freedom thrives best when government officials don’t tip the scales toward their favored religious beliefs.[/i]

And based on points 1 and 2...can we not all agree on points 3 and 4 below?

3. Posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a breach of the Separation of Church and State.
...but also, at the same time....
4. Teaching gender ideology (which, according to above, is akin to a religious belief) in public schools is also breach of the Separation of Church and State.

It's a valid question because while I am a Christian, I have always been a firm believer in the separation of Church and State.
I do not believe we should be posting the 10 Commandments in public schools.
At the same time, no other religions or beliefs (i.e., gender ideology) should be taught in public schools either.

Because, if we are going to allow one we must then allow the other....which is why the lines between church and state have blurred.

Neither should be allowed - solving everyone's problem.

Great question. I’m an atheist and could not agree with you more.

Good luck having any real discussion, posts which point out that gender ideology is essentially a religion are always deleted.

I know...which is why I used general "ideology" to start. But this is simply an honest debate. Deleting this thread just proves that there is no longer freedom of speech. This is not an inflammatory nor discriminatory post in any way. It's an honest question of "why" shouldn't gender ideology be afforded the same rights and freedoms as a religious belief? Because I've read conflicting articles where I can see valid arguments where is should be. That's all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...this is what I was looking for:

For purposes of U.S. employment law and religious discrimination, the answer is yes:

"The law protects not only people who belong to traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs."

https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination

AND

And from the Supreme Court on religion under the Universal Military Training and Service Act re: conscientious objectors:

"The test of religious belief within the meaning of the exemption in § 6(j) is whether it is a sincere and meaningful belief occupying in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualified for the exemption. Pp. 380 U. S. 173-180. United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965).

So if the answer is yes...and ideology is akin to religion...can we not all agree on points 1 and 2 below?

1. We need Separation of Church and State (religious beliefs should not be taught in public schools).
2. These religious beliefs should be inclusive of traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs.

Many people of faith, including Christians and adherents of minority faiths, strongly support the separation of church and state as a core component of religious liberty. They recognize, as did James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and other of our nation’s founders, that [i]religious freedom thrives best when government officials don’t tip the scales toward their favored religious beliefs.[/i]

And based on points 1 and 2...can we not all agree on points 3 and 4 below?

3. Posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a breach of the Separation of Church and State.
...but also, at the same time....
4. Teaching gender ideology (which, according to above, is akin to a religious belief) in public schools is also breach of the Separation of Church and State.

It's a valid question because while I am a Christian, I have always been a firm believer in the separation of Church and State.
I do not believe we should be posting the 10 Commandments in public schools.
At the same time, no other religions or beliefs (i.e., gender ideology) should be taught in public schools either.

Because, if we are going to allow one we must then allow the other....which is why the lines between church and state have blurred.

Neither should be allowed - solving everyone's problem.

Great question. I’m an atheist and could not agree with you more.

Good luck having any real discussion, posts which point out that gender ideology is essentially a religion are always deleted.

It’s deleted because it’s stupid AF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...this is what I was looking for:

For purposes of U.S. employment law and religious discrimination, the answer is yes:

"The law protects not only people who belong to traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs."

https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination

AND

And from the Supreme Court on religion under the Universal Military Training and Service Act re: conscientious objectors:

"The test of religious belief within the meaning of the exemption in § 6(j) is whether it is a sincere and meaningful belief occupying in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualified for the exemption. Pp. 380 U. S. 173-180. United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965).

So if the answer is yes...and ideology is akin to religion...can we not all agree on points 1 and 2 below?

1. We need Separation of Church and State (religious beliefs should not be taught in public schools).
2. These religious beliefs should be inclusive of traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs.

Many people of faith, including Christians and adherents of minority faiths, strongly support the separation of church and state as a core component of religious liberty. They recognize, as did James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and other of our nation’s founders, that [i]religious freedom thrives best when government officials don’t tip the scales toward their favored religious beliefs.[/i]

And based on points 1 and 2...can we not all agree on points 3 and 4 below?

3. Posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a breach of the Separation of Church and State.
...but also, at the same time....
4. Teaching gender ideology (which, according to above, is akin to a religious belief) in public schools is also breach of the Separation of Church and State.

It's a valid question because while I am a Christian, I have always been a firm believer in the separation of Church and State.
I do not believe we should be posting the 10 Commandments in public schools.
At the same time, no other religions or beliefs (i.e., gender ideology) should be taught in public schools either.

Because, if we are going to allow one we must then allow the other....which is why the lines between church and state have blurred.

Neither should be allowed - solving everyone's problem.

Great question. I’m an atheist and could not agree with you more.

Good luck having any real discussion, posts which point out that gender ideology is essentially a religion are always deleted.

I know...which is why I used general "ideology" to start. But this is simply an honest debate. Deleting this thread just proves that there is no longer freedom of speech. This is not an inflammatory nor discriminatory post in any way. It's an honest question of "why" shouldn't gender ideology be afforded the same rights and freedoms as a religious belief? Because I've read conflicting articles where I can see valid arguments where is should be. That's all.

It’s 100% inflammatory. If it’s deleted it’s freedom from bigots pushing anti-LGBTQ hate.

Fvk off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Gender is not a belief system or ideology, it's biology + psychology + sociology. It doesn't have "a place parallel to that filled by the God."

+1

Is science a religion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gender is not a belief system or ideology, it's biology + psychology + sociology. It doesn't have "a place parallel to that filled by the God."

+1

Is science a religion?

The poor education in this country is a travesty.

Science is quite literally based on empirical evidence, things that are observable or determine cause and effect. Religion is the opposite by definition, and involves the metaphysical or supernatural.

Biology is science, not religion. Gender is based on gender identity which is a metaphysical concept that some people have unobservable feelings where they want to have different body characteristics.

Hope that helps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...this is what I was looking for:

For purposes of U.S. employment law and religious discrimination, the answer is yes:

"The law protects not only people who belong to traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs."

https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination

AND

And from the Supreme Court on religion under the Universal Military Training and Service Act re: conscientious objectors:

"The test of religious belief within the meaning of the exemption in § 6(j) is whether it is a sincere and meaningful belief occupying in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualified for the exemption. Pp. 380 U. S. 173-180. United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965).

So if the answer is yes...and ideology is akin to religion...can we not all agree on points 1 and 2 below?

1. We need Separation of Church and State (religious beliefs should not be taught in public schools).
2. These religious beliefs should be inclusive of traditional, organized religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, but also others who have sincerely held religious, ethical or moral beliefs.

Many people of faith, including Christians and adherents of minority faiths, strongly support the separation of church and state as a core component of religious liberty. They recognize, as did James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and other of our nation’s founders, that [i]religious freedom thrives best when government officials don’t tip the scales toward their favored religious beliefs.[/i]

And based on points 1 and 2...can we not all agree on points 3 and 4 below?

3. Posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a breach of the Separation of Church and State.
...but also, at the same time....
4. Teaching gender ideology (which, according to above, is akin to a religious belief) in public schools is also breach of the Separation of Church and State.

It's a valid question because while I am a Christian, I have always been a firm believer in the separation of Church and State.
I do not believe we should be posting the 10 Commandments in public schools.
At the same time, no other religions or beliefs (i.e., gender ideology) should be taught in public schools either.

Because, if we are going to allow one we must then allow the other....which is why the lines between church and state have blurred.

Neither should be allowed - solving everyone's problem.

Great question. I’m an atheist and could not agree with you more.

Good luck having any real discussion, posts which point out that gender ideology is essentially a religion are always deleted.

I know...which is why I used general "ideology" to start. But this is simply an honest debate. Deleting this thread just proves that there is no longer freedom of speech. This is not an inflammatory nor discriminatory post in any way. It's an honest question of "why" shouldn't gender ideology be afforded the same rights and freedoms as a religious belief? Because I've read conflicting articles where I can see valid arguments where is should be. That's all.

It’s 100% inflammatory. If it’s deleted it’s freedom from bigots pushing anti-LGBTQ hate.

Fvk off.

You are the only one being rude and inflammatory. Please prove to me that gender ideology is not a "belief".

All I am saying is that gender ideology should have the same rights.....meaning should be respected and accepted. How is that anti anything? It is just coming at it from a different viewpoint. Geez.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gender is not a belief system or ideology, it's biology + psychology + sociology. It doesn't have "a place parallel to that filled by the God."

+1

Is science a religion?

The poor education in this country is a travesty.

Science is quite literally based on empirical evidence, things that are observable or determine cause and effect. Religion is the opposite by definition, and involves the metaphysical or supernatural.

Biology is science, not religion. Gender is based on gender identity which is a metaphysical concept that some people have unobservable feelings where they want to have different body characteristics.

Hope that helps.

Thanks...great discussion that is not inflammatory and not anti anything.

Wish more posters were like you.