How to change Big Law culture?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
(Note, changing BigLaw is not an option. The business model is what it is: The clients pay very high billable rates for a very high level of service. They’re paying for complete support and immediate responsiveness, pretty much 24/7. That’s the product BigLaw is selling. If DH no longer wants to provide that service, no problem. I’m guessing he has plenty of other options. But again, BigLaw firms are not going to be less responsive to client emergencies, or even to the non-emergency whims of their clients. High billable rates = High level of service. It is what it is.)

+100. Far be it for me to defend biglaw - I left for government and never looked back - but so many people who complain about biglaw don’t understand that what they are complaining about IS the product. It’s like being the manager of a Four Seasons and complaining that your guests have high expectations and call you at all hours of the night asking for towels when they just as easily could have called earlier in the day when it would have been easier. Tough. The Best Western is down the road if you’d rather have cheaper clients with lower expectations.

Biglaw is an expensive product that pays well for a reason - clients are paying for excellent, full-service, leave-no-stone-unturned work. “Good enough” isn’t an option. There are types of law that don’t come with those expectations. But they don’t pay like biglaw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
(Note, changing BigLaw is not an option. The business model is what it is: The clients pay very high billable rates for a very high level of service. They’re paying for complete support and immediate responsiveness, pretty much 24/7. That’s the product BigLaw is selling. If DH no longer wants to provide that service, no problem. I’m guessing he has plenty of other options. But again, BigLaw firms are not going to be less responsive to client emergencies, or even to the non-emergency whims of their clients. High billable rates = High level of service. It is what it is.)

+100. Far be it for me to defend biglaw - I left for government and never looked back - but so many people who complain about biglaw don’t understand that what they are complaining about IS the product. It’s like being the manager of a Four Seasons and complaining that your guests have high expectations and call you at all hours of the night asking for towels when they just as easily could have called earlier in the day when it would have been easier. Tough. The Best Western is down the road if you’d rather have cheaper clients with lower expectations.

Biglaw is an expensive product that pays well for a reason - clients are paying for excellent, full-service, leave-no-stone-unturned work. “Good enough” isn’t an option. There are types of law that don’t come with those expectations. But they don’t pay like biglaw.

This person gets it. Big law is a premium product.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like OP has a problem with her DH, not BigLaw.

OP, you and DH need to get on the same page. Either he shares your values and agrees to downshift to a less demanding role (in house or lower tier firm or something else) or he is unwilling to downshift and you agree to suck it up and reengineer your life so you’re not so unhappy.

Your venting is a sign that something needs to change: either his behavior or your attitude. Talk to each other, come to a decision together, and support each other as much as possible to make it work.

(Note, changing BigLaw is not an option. The business model is what it is: The clients pay very high billable rates for a very high level of service. They’re paying for complete support and immediate responsiveness, pretty much 24/7. That’s the product BigLaw is selling. If DH no longer wants to provide that service, no problem. I’m guessing he has plenty of other options. But again, BigLaw firms are not going to be less responsive to client emergencies, or even to the non-emergency whims of their clients. High billable rates = High level of service. It is what it is.)

This! I feel like someone comes in here with a similar rant every six months or so. It is usually the same combo of more children that usual (at least three), DH works SOOOOO hard, mom does it all, she's burnt out. These are somewhat common problems except in the big law case you have an easy solution at your fingertips --- you can pay for help and DH is professionally successful enough that he has options. I feel a lot worse for a woman doing it all whose DH is not making 700k plus a year. We paid a full-time nanny when DH and I were combined making less than $230k... you can definitely afford quality help.

[Anonymous]

Two big law stories I have heard:
1. Woman who worked billable hours five hours after giving birth.
2. Man with chest pains, EMT was called, but he refused to leave his desk and insisted on working.

It's a cult where you are supposed to present yourself as unbreakable with the partnership carrot dangling in front of you.

[Anonymous]

The Bear is the best TV show about BigLaw. No joke. Literally everyone in that show is a character I’ve seen in BigLaw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two big law stories I have heard:
1. Woman who worked billable hours five hours after giving birth.
2. Man with chest pains, EMT was called, but he refused to leave his desk and insisted on working.

It's a cult where you are supposed to present yourself as unbreakable with the partnership carrot dangling in front of you.

There are tons of stories about 1. I think not happening now or at least as much. Change in views. Mostly women now in 50s, 60s. Also on 1 -- it is the particular woman not Biglaw. Every story like this I have heard the woman is nuts. Not happening to sane women and did not happen to them 20 years ago.

2 just is not a thing. Doubt it ever happened. Ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
(Note, changing BigLaw is not an option. The business model is what it is: The clients pay very high billable rates for a very high level of service. They’re paying for complete support and immediate responsiveness, pretty much 24/7. That’s the product BigLaw is selling. If DH no longer wants to provide that service, no problem. I’m guessing he has plenty of other options. But again, BigLaw firms are not going to be less responsive to client emergencies, or even to the non-emergency whims of their clients. High billable rates = High level of service. It is what it is.)

+100. Far be it for me to defend biglaw - I left for government and never looked back - but so many people who complain about biglaw don’t understand that what they are complaining about IS the product. It’s like being the manager of a Four Seasons and complaining that your guests have high expectations and call you at all hours of the night asking for towels when they just as easily could have called earlier in the day when it would have been easier. Tough. The Best Western is down the road if you’d rather have cheaper clients with lower expectations.

Biglaw is an expensive product that pays well for a reason - clients are paying for excellent, full-service, leave-no-stone-unturned work. “Good enough” isn’t an option. There are types of law that don’t come with those expectations. But they don’t pay like biglaw.

+200

I know the OP is married to someone in BigLaw not working in it herself but this is the answer. There are some firms that have a better vibe than others but that does not mean short flexible work days and family friendly culture. It usually means better leadership and good recruiting that brings in lawyers who have similar work ethics and abilities so there is less resentment.

If you want a more chill vibe with lower work requirements you need to go work somewhere else where you will absolutely make less money.

[Anonymous]

Honestly? It won’t change because there are enough people willing to do it. My best friend’s husband is a partner and he’s never home, works on vacation and missed birthday parties. But they like their lifestyle. It’s all a trade off. If you don’t like it, plenty of other opportunities out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two big law stories I have heard:
1. Woman who worked billable hours five hours after giving birth.
2. Man with chest pains, EMT was called, but he refused to leave his desk and insisted on working.

It's a cult where you are supposed to present yourself as unbreakable with the partnership carrot dangling in front of you.

There are tons of stories about 1. I think not happening now or at least as much. Change in views. Mostly women now in 50s, 60s. Also on 1 -- it is the particular woman not Biglaw. Every story like this I have heard the woman is nuts. Not happening to sane women and did not happen to them 20 years ago.

2 just is not a thing. Doubt it ever happened. Ever.

OP - I say to my husband all the time that if he were to have some catastrophic health emergency his clients would not give a flying sh*t and would still probably ask him when he would get his memo done. Or whatever other work needs to be done.

The clients do not see their lawyers as humans at all. One partner was in the hospital after a very big health issue and when he called his clients to let them know he was out of pocket while he recuperated he had one client who said they were sorry he was hurt but in the very next sentence asked when the draft of the work would be completed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

lol I wonder why I would think that? Look, any job that requires the number of hours that Biglaw does by definition does not leave you time to be a normal partner/parent. The only way you couldn’t see this is if your conception of “normal” is that your wife does it all and you drop in for dinner a few times a week to see the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will it ever change? Why is everything an emergency? Why do documents get dumped at 8:00pm on a Friday for a Monday turn around? Why can't companies realize that lawyers have lives and are not robots? My DH has been in big law since he graduated undergrad as both a paralegal, associate, counsel and partner. It is never ending. They are freaking curing cancer or saving lives. They are writing briefs and helping companies make more more or keep their money. Why is it always an emergency that must be dealt with right away?

Also how do they get rid of the billable hour? It is unbearable.

You can have a different life, just one with less income.

Until then your vents are first-world problems for which no one gives a shit.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two big law stories I have heard:
1. Woman who worked billable hours five hours after giving birth.
2. Man with chest pains, EMT was called, but he refused to leave his desk and insisted on working.

It's a cult where you are supposed to present yourself as unbreakable with the partnership carrot dangling in front of you.

There are tons of stories about 1. I think not happening now or at least as much. Change in views. Mostly women now in 50s, 60s. Also on 1 -- it is the particular woman not Biglaw. Every story like this I have heard the woman is nuts. Not happening to sane women and did not happen to them 20 years ago.

2 just is not a thing. Doubt it ever happened. Ever.

OP - I say to my husband all the time that if he were to have some catastrophic health emergency his clients would not give a flying sh*t and would still probably ask him when he would get his memo done. Or whatever other work needs to be done.

The clients do not see their lawyers as humans at all. One partner was in the hospital after a very big health issue and when he called his clients to let them know he was out of pocket while he recuperated he had one client who said they were sorry he was hurt but in the very next sentence asked when the draft of the work would be completed.

That's a reasonable question. Deadlines don't move and the client hired the firm, not just the partner. It's fair to ask who's taking over the work while the partner is out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Bear is the best TV show about BigLaw. No joke. Literally everyone in that show is a character I’ve seen in BigLaw.

This isn't wrong. At big law prices, the work product should be perfect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think every year associates should have a written contract with how many hours they will bill, and how much they will get paid. Once they hit the number, no more work. Junior partners/of counsel too. Anyone without equity.

Partners are the business owner, so make them work. They are the system.

Lol, lol, lol.

Clearly you do not understand how any of this works. I'd avoided this thread because I'm a lawyer and these threads go on and on for pages with comments from people who clearly are not lawyers and don't know anything about how the profession it works. It's annoying. Well, here I am, barely into the comments, and I'm already sick of the nonsense from people who have no understanding of things (lawyer spouses? parents of kids who want to go to law school who "researched it"? people who just run their mouths and never miss an opportunity to answer any question even if they know nothing about it?) and won't be reading any more.

OP: You have a marriage problem, not a Big Law problem. Your DH may or may not have a Big Law problem, but if he does, and he wants a change, he can figure out how to move on (pro tip, your hours don't automatically go down with a pay cut).