How to change Big Law culture?

[Anonymous]

I don’t think the culture will change I think you have to quit.

I quit and my life is way better. I even make a lot of money too just not $1 million a year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are probably afforded a very comfortable life as a result of your husband being a partner at Big Law. lots of people work just as hard or harder and don't have a fraction to show for it as your husband. He can move inhouse and take a pay cut which I'm sure you don't want him to do.

OP - Well sure he makes a lot of money but I don't think the stress is worth it. I would be FINE with him leaving for an in house job. He seems to think most in house jobs doing what he does has the same amount of stress for less money so he might as well stay in big law.

I work full time as well, make 6 figures. On top of that I am the default parent 99% of the time to 3 young kids and keep our house together (bills, maintenance, laundry, food, etc).

Well then this is a problem in your marriage and not with Big Law.

FWIW he absolutely could get a job in-house or working for an industry association or in government that would pay reasonably well (not as much as Big Law) and also have much higher quality of life. Also some law firm specialties have tougher work-life issues than others so there are issues there as well. Tax, L&E in some subspecialties, certain IP work, business advisory, and a host of other legal specialties tend to have better quality of life than litigation or deals work. People tend to default to litigation and transactions because they are usually the largest departments in corporate firms and require the least amount of self-direction in terms of career.

If he wants to stay in Big Law then I think you need to start using that partnership income to hire meaningful help to make your life easier. Or if you don't like your job consider quitting or going part-time. Accept he's not going to change jobs and his job isn't going to get more conducive to family life.

You should also take advantage of his network at work to ask other partners and their spouses for recommendations on this stuff. You don't have to reinvent the wheel and you aren't the first Big Law family to have this issue. I guarantee there are families at his firm who have great recs for finding housekeepers and household managers, outsourcing vacation and activitiy planning, etc. Also: are you taking advantage of all the perks and services his firm offers -- stuff like childcare assistance and corporate deals on technology and services. I would lean in on that. Firms often do a lot of that to sweeten the deal because they know that it's hard to work at these places and balance family life. See if his firm offers any perks that might make it easier. And if they don't maybe point out to him that the firm could do more -- firms often ask their partnership about work-life issues and strategies to increase attorney attention and attract better talent. Tell him what would make the firm more attractive for spouses and see if he'll suggest it when they survey the partnershp or if you serves on any committees that might address these issues. The issue of culture and work-life balance (and being family friendly) is actually a pretty hot topic at most Big Law firms and you could actually influence his firm if you went about it the right way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You’re going to get flamed but it’s a good question. Escalating Billable hours and endless nights/weekends/vacations working were not always how it worked at Biglaw. To a certain extent people can draw their own boundaries but that’s not going to solve the overall issue of overwork. If you want a different culture you’re going to have to leave Biglaw (and likely make less money).

Another thing is that top lawschool grads are often very uncreative, hierarchical, conventional and risk adverse. They cannot see any path other than the Biglaw firm. So those characteristics produce an environment where everyone feels they need to bow and scrape and prove themselves by making people above them happy.

Those few Biglaw associates who are more entrepreneurial and creative will get out quickly and go into business or in house for something more interesting. I know one who only made it a year in Biglaw and then left to start his own business and is now very rich and works normal-ish hours. Another who joined a really interesting and high profile trafe association instead of going for partner (which he likely would have made).

This is such an informative and helpful post about Big Law. Thank you for this, PP.

I will add that many who leave Big Law for government or in house jobs seem to come from families with money. They work super hard for three to four years, build up experience and contacts and then leave mostly to work in government since this is DC. Still not exactly creative types when I think about it. But they usually have an inheritance coming their way. People without this tend to stick it out more. Maybe they have to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You aren't really venting about Big Law; you are venting about your DH.

This

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You’re going to get flamed but it’s a good question. Escalating Billable hours and endless nights/weekends/vacations working were not always how it worked at Biglaw. To a certain extent people can draw their own boundaries but that’s not going to solve the overall issue of overwork. If you want a different culture you’re going to have to leave Biglaw (and likely make less money).

Another thing is that top lawschool grads are often very uncreative, hierarchical, conventional and risk adverse. They cannot see any path other than the Biglaw firm. So those characteristics produce an environment where everyone feels they need to bow and scrape and prove themselves by making people above them happy.

Those few Biglaw associates who are more entrepreneurial and creative will get out quickly and go into business or in house for something more interesting. I know one who only made it a year in Biglaw and then left to start his own business and is now very rich and works normal-ish hours. Another who joined a really interesting and high profile trafe association instead of going for partner (which he likely would have made).

People want to make more money. Salaries have outpaced increases in hourly rates and more clients are questioning bills and shopping around for discounts. Taken together, the only way to make more money is to work more hours. The catch with professional services is that you are selling yourself at an hourly rate which caps your pay at the hours you and those below you bill. If you want to be rewarded for better work more than more work, move to a contingency firm. You'll lose the respect of being able to say you work for a white shoe firm, but the sky is the limit for the lawyers who are really good at it

[Anonymous]

No one makes you work in Biglaw. You can leave at any time and there will be a line of people waiting to take the job.

[Anonymous]

My DH has been in big law for thirty years. There was a time before email and blackberries (which were the big change to weekend and evening work) where big law was more family-friendly. Things changed around 2003-4 with the changing technology and really ramped up from 2005-2020. That was the worst period. With the advent of Zoom and the changes of the pandemic, I feel that big law has gotten much less crazy than it was in the mid-2010s. DH definitely does not ride his associates the way he was coming up. You cannot make the same demands anymore. When he was an associate, he pulled all-nighters a couple times and week, worked every weekend, and on all our vacations. He would get in trouble with the firm for expecting that of his associates today. Until the pandemic, there was no work from home ever. I actually really appreciate how things have gotten more humane for big law families post-2020.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You’re going to get flamed but it’s a good question. Escalating Billable hours and endless nights/weekends/vacations working were not always how it worked at Biglaw. To a certain extent people can draw their own boundaries but that’s not going to solve the overall issue of overwork. If you want a different culture you’re going to have to leave Biglaw (and likely make less money).

Another thing is that top lawschool grads are often very uncreative, hierarchical, conventional and risk adverse. They cannot see any path other than the Biglaw firm. So those characteristics produce an environment where everyone feels they need to bow and scrape and prove themselves by making people above them happy.

Those few Biglaw associates who are more entrepreneurial and creative will get out quickly and go into business or in house for something more interesting. I know one who only made it a year in Biglaw and then left to start his own business and is now very rich and works normal-ish hours. Another who joined a really interesting and high profile trafe association instead of going for partner (which he likely would have made).

This is such an informative and helpful post about Big Law. Thank you for this, PP.

I will add that many who leave Big Law for government or in house jobs seem to come from families with money. They work super hard for three to four years, build up experience and contacts and then leave mostly to work in government since this is DC. Still not exactly creative types when I think about it. But they usually have an inheritance coming their way. People without this tend to stick it out more. Maybe they have to.

Nope, nobody “has to” stay in Biglaw. But that’s sure the distorted way of thinking of many Biglaw lawyers. You can get a very good salary elsewhere. But sure, if you believe you HAVE TO have a $2 mil mortgage, private school tuition, fully funded college, annual international travel, then you may “have to” stay in Biglaw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DH has been in big law for thirty years. There was a time before email and blackberries (which were the big change to weekend and evening work) where big law was more family-friendly. Things changed around 2003-4 with the changing technology and really ramped up from 2005-2020. That was the worst period. With the advent of Zoom and the changes of the pandemic, I feel that big law has gotten much less crazy than it was in the mid-2010s. DH definitely does not ride his associates the way he was coming up. You cannot make the same demands anymore. When he was an associate, he pulled all-nighters a couple times and week, worked every weekend, and on all our vacations. He would get in trouble with the firm for expecting that of his associates today. Until the pandemic, there was no work from home ever. I actually really appreciate how things have gotten more humane for big law families post-2020.

Lol there was always “work from home” pre-pandemic- but it was work you were expected to do from home on the weekends/nights/holidays. That’s what I find tremendously ironic about law firms fulminating about WFH: they DEPEND on people working from home!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You’re going to get flamed but it’s a good question. Escalating Billable hours and endless nights/weekends/vacations working were not always how it worked at Biglaw. To a certain extent people can draw their own boundaries but that’s not going to solve the overall issue of overwork. If you want a different culture you’re going to have to leave Biglaw (and likely make less money).

Another thing is that top lawschool grads are often very uncreative, hierarchical, conventional and risk adverse. They cannot see any path other than the Biglaw firm. So those characteristics produce an environment where everyone feels they need to bow and scrape and prove themselves by making people above them happy.

Those few Biglaw associates who are more entrepreneurial and creative will get out quickly and go into business or in house for something more interesting. I know one who only made it a year in Biglaw and then left to start his own business and is now very rich and works normal-ish hours. Another who joined a really interesting and high profile trafe association instead of going for partner (which he likely would have made).

This is such an informative and helpful post about Big Law. Thank you for this, PP.

I will add that many who leave Big Law for government or in house jobs seem to come from families with money. They work super hard for three to four years, build up experience and contacts and then leave mostly to work in government since this is DC. Still not exactly creative types when I think about it. But they usually have an inheritance coming their way. People without this tend to stick it out more. Maybe they have to.

OP - I think this is a big thing too. DH grew up very solidly middle class. He is the first person in his family (and extended family) who has this type of job or makes this type of salary. He had to pay for undergrad and law school himself. There is no inheritance no help from his parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it has changed a lot in the last 15 years. I find that my firm has become exponentially more flexible and family friendly. That's not to say there aren't deadlines all the time but people's ability to set boundaries has definitely changed.[/quote

Agreed. I have been in biglaw for 25 years and it has changed for the better. It's all relative, I suppose, but I would say that in my experience people of my generation generally try to do at least somewhat better than those who came before us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are probably afforded a very comfortable life as a result of your husband being a partner at Big Law. lots of people work just as hard or harder and don't have a fraction to show for it as your husband. He can move inhouse and take a pay cut which I'm sure you don't want him to do.

+1 it pays a lot and this is why. He can leave if he doesn't want to do that any more. This isn't about culture, it's about decisions you make.

I am in house, it's way more manageable, I get paid way less than I did before.

[Anonymous]

I’ve been on the client side in corporate real estate and a lot of the times it’s not me, the client, driving last minute demands. In fact, often I ask for documents further in advance so that we DONT have to fire drill constantly. It’s the attorneys who seem to wait till the last minute. I find it frustrating and stressful that they won’t work in advance more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH has been in big law for thirty years. There was a time before email and blackberries (which were the big change to weekend and evening work) where big law was more family-friendly. Things changed around 2003-4 with the changing technology and really ramped up from 2005-2020. That was the worst period. With the advent of Zoom and the changes of the pandemic, I feel that big law has gotten much less crazy than it was in the mid-2010s. DH definitely does not ride his associates the way he was coming up. You cannot make the same demands anymore. When he was an associate, he pulled all-nighters a couple times and week, worked every weekend, and on all our vacations. He would get in trouble with the firm for expecting that of his associates today. Until the pandemic, there was no work from home ever. I actually really appreciate how things have gotten more humane for big law families post-2020.

Lol there was always “work from home” pre-pandemic- but it was work you were expected to do from home on the weekends/nights/holidays. That’s what I find tremendously ironic about law firms fulminating about WFH: they DEPEND on people working from home!

Sure, but there is a difference between commuting to an office and wasting two hours in transit to sit in your office everyday and then coming home and working for a few more hours and working from home for the whole day and getting those two hours back. When DH goes to the office, he never eats dinner with us because he comes home at 8:30, helps with bedtime, and then works a few more hours. He did this routine for years pre-pandemic. When he works from home, he still works 8:30am to 8:30 pm, but he eats dinner with us, says hi to the kids after school, is more relaxed because of no commute, and then logs back on for a couple of hours. We joke that the firm actually gets more hours out of him on work from home days because he works through what would have been his commute. WFH has definitely improved our family life and he only works from home two days a week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Will it ever change? Why is everything an emergency? Why do documents get dumped at 8:00pm on a Friday for a Monday turn around? Why can't companies realize that lawyers have lives and are not robots? My DH has been in big law since he graduated undergrad as both a paralegal, associate, counsel and partner. It is never ending. They are freaking curing cancer or saving lives. They are writing briefs and helping companies make more more or keep their money. Why is it always an emergency that must be dealt with right away?

Also how do they get rid of the billable hour? It is unbearable.

Clients are paying for availability and top quality service. Those are reasonable expectations when you're paying over $1k/hr as a client.