How to change Big Law culture?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

lol I wonder why I would think that? Look, any job that requires the number of hours that Biglaw does by definition does not leave you time to be a normal partner/parent. The only way you couldn’t see this is if your conception of “normal” is that your wife does it all and you drop in for dinner a few times a week to see the kids.

I think people not in biglaw are misunderstanding the hours. When you are on they are crazy but you are not always on. I can’t tell you home for dinner percentages. Pre-Covid I came home before 8. But my kids were at things anyway and we did not eat together. Post Covid I am home for dinner most nights. But I likely have work after dinner. Have I made every sporting event of the kids? No but probably 80%. Not sure what you mean wife does it all. She does a lot and so do I. This all works out. It’s not the case that you do not see the kids or attend key things. You just work it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

lol I wonder why I would think that? Look, any job that requires the number of hours that Biglaw does by definition does not leave you time to be a normal partner/parent. The only way you couldn’t see this is if your conception of “normal” is that your wife does it all and you drop in for dinner a few times a week to see the kids.

I think people not in biglaw are misunderstanding the hours. When you are on they are crazy but you are not always on. I can’t tell you home for dinner percentages. Pre-Covid I came home before 8. But my kids were at things anyway and we did not eat together. Post Covid I am home for dinner most nights. But I likely have work after dinner. Have I made every sporting event of the kids? No but probably 80%. Not sure what you mean wife does it all. She does a lot and so do I. This all works out. It’s not the case that you do not see the kids or attend key things. You just work it out.

This is similar to my experience. Lots of people posting have obviously never worked in big law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

lol I wonder why I would think that? Look, any job that requires the number of hours that Biglaw does by definition does not leave you time to be a normal partner/parent. The only way you couldn’t see this is if your conception of “normal” is that your wife does it all and you drop in for dinner a few times a week to see the kids.

I think people not in biglaw are misunderstanding the hours. When you are on they are crazy but you are not always on. I can’t tell you home for dinner percentages. Pre-Covid I came home before 8. But my kids were at things anyway and we did not eat together. Post Covid I am home for dinner most nights. But I likely have work after dinner. Have I made every sporting event of the kids? No but probably 80%. Not sure what you mean wife does it all. She does a lot and so do I. This all works out. It’s not the case that you do not see the kids or attend key things. You just work it out.

This is similar to my experience. Lots of people posting have obviously never worked in big law.

Agree that what you quoted is a more or less a normal-ish experience. And, for people that have never "been in" - they only hear about from the outliers anyways, and only hear what they want to hear.

That said, the idea that consistently being home for dinner is somehow representative of a "not horrible experience" is something that confirms I made the right decision to GTFO out of my first firm and into a lower-tier. Of course, that came with some compensation adjustment - mostly now five years later where the billing rates against my originations are lower. But, I now have the time to have an actual life. Work is very low on my list of priorities, and my success rate remains very high and unchanged. The volume is just lower by design.

Some of the responses here also reflect this constant biglaw undercurrent of pride in working so much. I find that hilarious and sad at the same time. One would think the goal here should be to make the most amount of money with the least time invested as possible, and strike as opitmal a balance as possible. Maybe not. That's my goal at least.

Separately agree my experience is not universally applicable. I am in a narrow-ish/niche-ish area, but not that narrow. If you are practicing something like general litigation in biglaw, the long term prognosis for that is most certainly pepper angus effectively forever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

lol I wonder why I would think that? Look, any job that requires the number of hours that Biglaw does by definition does not leave you time to be a normal partner/parent. The only way you couldn’t see this is if your conception of “normal” is that your wife does it all and you drop in for dinner a few times a week to see the kids.

I think people not in biglaw are misunderstanding the hours. When you are on they are crazy but you are not always on. I can’t tell you home for dinner percentages. Pre-Covid I came home before 8. But my kids were at things anyway and we did not eat together. Post Covid I am home for dinner most nights. But I likely have work after dinner. Have I made every sporting event of the kids? No but probably 80%. Not sure what you mean wife does it all. She does a lot and so do I. This all works out. It’s not the case that you do not see the kids or attend key things. You just work it out.

Lol! Thanks for proving the point. “Home before 8 and my kids were out doing things” is NOT being an engaged parent. Not by a lonnnng shot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

lol I wonder why I would think that? Look, any job that requires the number of hours that Biglaw does by definition does not leave you time to be a normal partner/parent. The only way you couldn’t see this is if your conception of “normal” is that your wife does it all and you drop in for dinner a few times a week to see the kids.

I think people not in biglaw are misunderstanding the hours. When you are on they are crazy but you are not always on. I can’t tell you home for dinner percentages. Pre-Covid I came home before 8. But my kids were at things anyway and we did not eat together. Post Covid I am home for dinner most nights. But I likely have work after dinner. Have I made every sporting event of the kids? No but probably 80%. Not sure what you mean wife does it all. She does a lot and so do I. This all works out. It’s not the case that you do not see the kids or attend key things. You just work it out.

This is similar to my experience. Lots of people posting have obviously never worked in big law.

I have. I also have brothers in big law/IB who probably also believe they are “great involved dads” because they see their kids a bit on the weekend and on vacation twice a year, and took a week off for paternity leave. Meanwhile they have SAHW that do everything. You’re delusional.

[Anonymous]

Having worked in BigLaw and outside it one thing that happens is that when you are at a firm you tend to compare yourself exculsively to peers at the firm or at peer firms.

So what a BigLaw attorney considers a "very involved" parent can be pretty different than what a government attorney or someone who isn't a lawyer at all will consider very involved.

I do think the people who make it work best tend to have a pretty robust support network (usually involving both paid and family help) so I don't think their kids suffer for having a parent with a very demanding job. Like it's not really that big of a deal if you only eat dinner with your dad twice a week if you have a mom and a grandma and a nanny who are there daily and making you feel cared for and loved. Spending the afternoon with a great nanny before eating dinner with mom and grandma and then your dad is home for bedtime is totally great from the kid's perspective.

I know from experience though that if you do not have that network it sucks for all involved. A BigLaw parent plus another parent with a demanding job plus no family help and maybe you struggle to find great hired help is a recipe for disaster and it's situations like this that lead to people bailing on BigLaw. You need help and it usually has to come from multiple sources -- spouse and grandparents and hired help. The BigLaw salary makes it easier to have a SAHP but cannot help someone want to be a SAHP and while the salary can make it easier to pay more for help there is also some luck and other logistics involved (so much easier to find a great nanny if the non-BigLaw parent wants to and is good at hiring and managing that person). And invovled family is just the luck of the draw.

If you are a BigLawa attorney making it work and feel like your family is functioning great that's wonderful but you do need to understand that there is some luck and special circumstances in terms of your partner and extended family that makes that work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

lol I wonder why I would think that? Look, any job that requires the number of hours that Biglaw does by definition does not leave you time to be a normal partner/parent. The only way you couldn’t see this is if your conception of “normal” is that your wife does it all and you drop in for dinner a few times a week to see the kids.

I think people not in biglaw are misunderstanding the hours. When you are on they are crazy but you are not always on. I can’t tell you home for dinner percentages. Pre-Covid I came home before 8. But my kids were at things anyway and we did not eat together. Post Covid I am home for dinner most nights. But I likely have work after dinner. Have I made every sporting event of the kids? No but probably 80%. Not sure what you mean wife does it all. She does a lot and so do I. This all works out. It’s not the case that you do not see the kids or attend key things. You just work it out.

This is similar to my experience. Lots of people posting have obviously never worked in big law.

I have. I also have brothers in big law/IB who probably also believe they are “great involved dads” because they see their kids a bit on the weekend and on vacation twice a year, and took a week off for paternity leave. Meanwhile they have SAHW that do everything. You’re delusional.

And you're just a jerk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

lol I wonder why I would think that? Look, any job that requires the number of hours that Biglaw does by definition does not leave you time to be a normal partner/parent. The only way you couldn’t see this is if your conception of “normal” is that your wife does it all and you drop in for dinner a few times a week to see the kids.

I think people not in biglaw are misunderstanding the hours. When you are on they are crazy but you are not always on. I can’t tell you home for dinner percentages. Pre-Covid I came home before 8. But my kids were at things anyway and we did not eat together. Post Covid I am home for dinner most nights. But I likely have work after dinner. Have I made every sporting event of the kids? No but probably 80%. Not sure what you mean wife does it all. She does a lot and so do I. This all works out. It’s not the case that you do not see the kids or attend key things. You just work it out.

This is similar to my experience. Lots of people posting have obviously never worked in big law.

I have. I also have brothers in big law/IB who probably also believe they are “great involved dads” because they see their kids a bit on the weekend and on vacation twice a year, and took a week off for paternity leave. Meanwhile they have SAHW that do everything. You’re delusional.

And you're just a jerk.

Arguably the jerk is the person prioritizing money and prestige over their family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Having worked in BigLaw and outside it one thing that happens is that when you are at a firm you tend to compare yourself exculsively to peers at the firm or at peer firms.

So what a BigLaw attorney considers a "very involved" parent can be pretty different than what a government attorney or someone who isn't a lawyer at all will consider very involved.

I do think the people who make it work best tend to have a pretty robust support network (usually involving both paid and family help) so I don't think their kids suffer for having a parent with a very demanding job. Like it's not really that big of a deal if you only eat dinner with your dad twice a week if you have a mom and a grandma and a nanny who are there daily and making you feel cared for and loved. Spending the afternoon with a great nanny before eating dinner with mom and grandma and then your dad is home for bedtime is totally great from the kid's perspective.

I know from experience though that if you do not have that network it sucks for all involved. A BigLaw parent plus another parent with a demanding job plus no family help and maybe you struggle to find great hired help is a recipe for disaster and it's situations like this that lead to people bailing on BigLaw. You need help and it usually has to come from multiple sources -- spouse and grandparents and hired help. The BigLaw salary makes it easier to have a SAHP but cannot help someone want to be a SAHP and while the salary can make it easier to pay more for help there is also some luck and other logistics involved (so much easier to find a great nanny if the non-BigLaw parent wants to and is good at hiring and managing that person). And invovled family is just the luck of the draw.

If you are a BigLawa attorney making it work and feel like your family is functioning great that's wonderful but you do need to understand that there is some luck and special circumstances in terms of your partner and extended family that makes that work.

Good post. Biglaw men don’t care about the “support system.” They just assume their wives will take care of it, including managing any outsourcing. I know a Biglaw partner recently divorced who thinks he’s some kind of hero for taking his kids 1 day on the weekend; meanwhile thinks his ex (former stay at home to multiple kids) is sooo mean for taking 50% of the assets and securing generous child support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

lol I wonder why I would think that? Look, any job that requires the number of hours that Biglaw does by definition does not leave you time to be a normal partner/parent. The only way you couldn’t see this is if your conception of “normal” is that your wife does it all and you drop in for dinner a few times a week to see the kids.

I think people not in biglaw are misunderstanding the hours. When you are on they are crazy but you are not always on. I can’t tell you home for dinner percentages. Pre-Covid I came home before 8. But my kids were at things anyway and we did not eat together. Post Covid I am home for dinner most nights. But I likely have work after dinner. Have I made every sporting event of the kids? No but probably 80%. Not sure what you mean wife does it all. She does a lot and so do I. This all works out. It’s not the case that you do not see the kids or attend key things. You just work it out.

This is similar to my experience. Lots of people posting have obviously never worked in big law.

I have. I also have brothers in big law/IB who probably also believe they are “great involved dads” because they see their kids a bit on the weekend and on vacation twice a year, and took a week off for paternity leave. Meanwhile they have SAHW that do everything. You’re delusional.

And you're just a jerk.

Arguably the jerk is the person prioritizing money and prestige over their family.

Must be nice living off a trust fund. Some of us have to earn our living.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Having worked in BigLaw and outside it one thing that happens is that when you are at a firm you tend to compare yourself exculsively to peers at the firm or at peer firms.

So what a BigLaw attorney considers a "very involved" parent can be pretty different than what a government attorney or someone who isn't a lawyer at all will consider very involved.

I do think the people who make it work best tend to have a pretty robust support network (usually involving both paid and family help) so I don't think their kids suffer for having a parent with a very demanding job. Like it's not really that big of a deal if you only eat dinner with your dad twice a week if you have a mom and a grandma and a nanny who are there daily and making you feel cared for and loved. Spending the afternoon with a great nanny before eating dinner with mom and grandma and then your dad is home for bedtime is totally great from the kid's perspective.

I know from experience though that if you do not have that network it sucks for all involved. A BigLaw parent plus another parent with a demanding job plus no family help and maybe you struggle to find great hired help is a recipe for disaster and it's situations like this that lead to people bailing on BigLaw. You need help and it usually has to come from multiple sources -- spouse and grandparents and hired help. The BigLaw salary makes it easier to have a SAHP but cannot help someone want to be a SAHP and while the salary can make it easier to pay more for help there is also some luck and other logistics involved (so much easier to find a great nanny if the non-BigLaw parent wants to and is good at hiring and managing that person). And invovled family is just the luck of the draw.

If you are a BigLawa attorney making it work and feel like your family is functioning great that's wonderful but you do need to understand that there is some luck and special circumstances in terms of your partner and extended family that makes that work.

Good post. Biglaw men don’t care about the “support system.” They just assume their wives will take care of it, including managing any outsourcing. I know a Biglaw partner recently divorced who thinks he’s some kind of hero for taking his kids 1 day on the weekend; meanwhile thinks his ex (former stay at home to multiple kids) is sooo mean for taking 50% of the assets and securing generous child support.

Glad this has devolved into sexism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Having worked in BigLaw and outside it one thing that happens is that when you are at a firm you tend to compare yourself exculsively to peers at the firm or at peer firms.

So what a BigLaw attorney considers a "very involved" parent can be pretty different than what a government attorney or someone who isn't a lawyer at all will consider very involved.

I do think the people who make it work best tend to have a pretty robust support network (usually involving both paid and family help) so I don't think their kids suffer for having a parent with a very demanding job. Like it's not really that big of a deal if you only eat dinner with your dad twice a week if you have a mom and a grandma and a nanny who are there daily and making you feel cared for and loved. Spending the afternoon with a great nanny before eating dinner with mom and grandma and then your dad is home for bedtime is totally great from the kid's perspective.

I know from experience though that if you do not have that network it sucks for all involved. A BigLaw parent plus another parent with a demanding job plus no family help and maybe you struggle to find great hired help is a recipe for disaster and it's situations like this that lead to people bailing on BigLaw. You need help and it usually has to come from multiple sources -- spouse and grandparents and hired help. The BigLaw salary makes it easier to have a SAHP but cannot help someone want to be a SAHP and while the salary can make it easier to pay more for help there is also some luck and other logistics involved (so much easier to find a great nanny if the non-BigLaw parent wants to and is good at hiring and managing that person). And invovled family is just the luck of the draw.

If you are a BigLawa attorney making it work and feel like your family is functioning great that's wonderful but you do need to understand that there is some luck and special circumstances in terms of your partner and extended family that makes that work.

Good post. Biglaw men don’t care about the “support system.” They just assume their wives will take care of it, including managing any outsourcing. I know a Biglaw partner recently divorced who thinks he’s some kind of hero for taking his kids 1 day on the weekend; meanwhile thinks his ex (former stay at home to multiple kids) is sooo mean for taking 50% of the assets and securing generous child support.

That's quite the broad statement you have going there. I know quite a few female biglaw lunatics myself - they are kind of unavoidable in the joint. Anecdotes are like a$$holes. Everybody has one.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

Why would you think there would be a neglected spouse and kids? That is not the reality for most. Been a Biglaw partner for 25 years. The stories you hear may be true but they are one -offs and not every day. Also as a partner you have a lot of ability to control. I agress it can suck as a non-partner.

lol I wonder why I would think that? Look, any job that requires the number of hours that Biglaw does by definition does not leave you time to be a normal partner/parent. The only way you couldn’t see this is if your conception of “normal” is that your wife does it all and you drop in for dinner a few times a week to see the kids.

I think people not in biglaw are misunderstanding the hours. When you are on they are crazy but you are not always on. I can’t tell you home for dinner percentages. Pre-Covid I came home before 8. But my kids were at things anyway and we did not eat together. Post Covid I am home for dinner most nights. But I likely have work after dinner. Have I made every sporting event of the kids? No but probably 80%. Not sure what you mean wife does it all. She does a lot and so do I. This all works out. It’s not the case that you do not see the kids or attend key things. You just work it out.

This is similar to my experience. Lots of people posting have obviously never worked in big law.

I have. I also have brothers in big law/IB who probably also believe they are “great involved dads” because they see their kids a bit on the weekend and on vacation twice a year, and took a week off for paternity leave. Meanwhile they have SAHW that do everything. You’re delusional.

And you're just a jerk.

Arguably the jerk is the person prioritizing money and prestige over their family.

Must be nice living off a trust fund. Some of us have to earn our living.

There are many ways to earn a living other than Biglaw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Having worked in BigLaw and outside it one thing that happens is that when you are at a firm you tend to compare yourself exculsively to peers at the firm or at peer firms.

So what a BigLaw attorney considers a "very involved" parent can be pretty different than what a government attorney or someone who isn't a lawyer at all will consider very involved.

I do think the people who make it work best tend to have a pretty robust support network (usually involving both paid and family help) so I don't think their kids suffer for having a parent with a very demanding job. Like it's not really that big of a deal if you only eat dinner with your dad twice a week if you have a mom and a grandma and a nanny who are there daily and making you feel cared for and loved. Spending the afternoon with a great nanny before eating dinner with mom and grandma and then your dad is home for bedtime is totally great from the kid's perspective.

I know from experience though that if you do not have that network it sucks for all involved. A BigLaw parent plus another parent with a demanding job plus no family help and maybe you struggle to find great hired help is a recipe for disaster and it's situations like this that lead to people bailing on BigLaw. You need help and it usually has to come from multiple sources -- spouse and grandparents and hired help. The BigLaw salary makes it easier to have a SAHP but cannot help someone want to be a SAHP and while the salary can make it easier to pay more for help there is also some luck and other logistics involved (so much easier to find a great nanny if the non-BigLaw parent wants to and is good at hiring and managing that person). And invovled family is just the luck of the draw.

If you are a BigLawa attorney making it work and feel like your family is functioning great that's wonderful but you do need to understand that there is some luck and special circumstances in terms of your partner and extended family that makes that work.

Good post. Biglaw men don’t care about the “support system.” They just assume their wives will take care of it, including managing any outsourcing. I know a Biglaw partner recently divorced who thinks he’s some kind of hero for taking his kids 1 day on the weekend; meanwhile thinks his ex (former stay at home to multiple kids) is sooo mean for taking 50% of the assets and securing generous child support.

That's quite the broad statement you have going there. I know quite a few female biglaw lunatics myself - they are kind of unavoidable in the joint. Anecdotes are like a$$holes. Everybody has one.

Yes but as you know, the scenario wherw the Biglaw man has a SAHW is MUCH more common by far. Some of the women do have SAHD (it happens!) Or they are just completely miserable and their kids are too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Having worked in BigLaw and outside it one thing that happens is that when you are at a firm you tend to compare yourself exculsively to peers at the firm or at peer firms.

So what a BigLaw attorney considers a "very involved" parent can be pretty different than what a government attorney or someone who isn't a lawyer at all will consider very involved.

I do think the people who make it work best tend to have a pretty robust support network (usually involving both paid and family help) so I don't think their kids suffer for having a parent with a very demanding job. Like it's not really that big of a deal if you only eat dinner with your dad twice a week if you have a mom and a grandma and a nanny who are there daily and making you feel cared for and loved. Spending the afternoon with a great nanny before eating dinner with mom and grandma and then your dad is home for bedtime is totally great from the kid's perspective.

I know from experience though that if you do not have that network it sucks for all involved. A BigLaw parent plus another parent with a demanding job plus no family help and maybe you struggle to find great hired help is a recipe for disaster and it's situations like this that lead to people bailing on BigLaw. You need help and it usually has to come from multiple sources -- spouse and grandparents and hired help. The BigLaw salary makes it easier to have a SAHP but cannot help someone want to be a SAHP and while the salary can make it easier to pay more for help there is also some luck and other logistics involved (so much easier to find a great nanny if the non-BigLaw parent wants to and is good at hiring and managing that person). And invovled family is just the luck of the draw.

If you are a BigLawa attorney making it work and feel like your family is functioning great that's wonderful but you do need to understand that there is some luck and special circumstances in terms of your partner and extended family that makes that work.

Folks, so much of this is just what you want to do. I know BigLaw partners that make every kid’s sporting event because they enjoy watching sports. They just put it on their schedules and then probably do some work later that night.

Those same partners are somehow too busy to take kids to doctor appointments or parent teacher conferences or all the other shit they don’t want to do.

If you don’t want to eat dinner with your family most nights, it’s a choice you make…sorry it’s not because you have 5 alarm fires requiring you to be in the office 3 days per week.

Stop blaming the job for not being present at the things you just don’t want to do.