How to change Big Law culture?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

This is so smart. OP's DH should take heed. It makes me sad to think of these people churning away at big law neglecting their families and feeling miserable. No amount of money is worth that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

+1. I have a friend at a 1st tier firm in a smaller city, who is a partner in a specialty that serves government clients. Verrrry not time demanding! Generally when I call him he’s on his way to golf. I hate him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

The funny thing is you are writing this while thinking it’s some sort of revelation.

Here’s the thing, a lot of in house lawyers that give out work that are my age (early 40s) have the same attitude I do. The reason is they had to deal with broken gen X personalities whose goal in life is to figure out how to ruin their personal life as quickly as possible-turning every possible thing into a maximum bill opportunity and an emergency. Who do you think they like to work with?

To each their own. I’m keeping my ship floating. And yes, I am somewhat niche in that I’m not doing general lit, but not all that niche.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

But they get to drive to and from the office in a very expensive car, so it’s totally worth it. They also get the delicious fortune of developing heart disease early and their healthspan is garbage. Sounds rad to me!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biglaw is going to collapse in a decade or so anyway. Junior associates don’t want to work. Clients are tired of the high and bringing more work in house. Most firms don’t have a plan for AI. And leadership is still chasing PPP with their heads in the sand.

ahahahahahahahahahahhaa bless your heart.

It will reduce the number of junior associates hired…but make experienced attorneys more productive and richer.

I have never heard people despise their own employees like partners seem to despise their associates (except for a small chosen few).

It’s frankly strange.

I've never met a partner who despises their associates. They certainly expect high quality work and responsiveness. Those aren't unreasonable expectations when the starting pay is north of $200k. A junior associate's main value is their responsiveness and attention to detail. Associates who only want to out in the bare minimum won't last long, especially if there's an economic slowdown.

I guess you haven't met many senior partners. They all complain that associates get paid too much...they get all the benefits paid by the firm that partners have to pay for themselves (the whole partner benefits thing is weird)...the associates are eating into their profit-per-partner, etc.

Associates are a necessary evil. If AI can get rid of most of them...awesome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biglaw is going to collapse in a decade or so anyway. Junior associates don’t want to work. Clients are tired of the high and bringing more work in house. Most firms don’t have a plan for AI. And leadership is still chasing PPP with their heads in the sand.

ahahahahahahahahahahhaa bless your heart.

It will reduce the number of junior associates hired…but make experienced attorneys more productive and richer.

I have never heard people despise their own employees like partners seem to despise their associates (except for a small chosen few).

It’s frankly strange.

I've never met a partner who despises their associates. They certainly expect high quality work and responsiveness. Those aren't unreasonable expectations when the starting pay is north of $200k. A junior associate's main value is their responsiveness and attention to detail. Associates who only want to out in the bare minimum won't last long, especially if there's an economic slowdown.

I guess you haven't met many senior partners. They all complain that associates get paid too much...they get all the benefits paid by the firm that partners have to pay for themselves (the whole partner benefits thing is weird)...the associates are eating into their profit-per-partner, etc.

Associates are a necessary evil. If AI can get rid of most of them...awesome.

Complaining about market rate for associate pay doesn't mean they hate their associates. It is ridiculous to pay junior associates $250k+/yr. That's more than federal judges, prosecutors, and most in house counsel make.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biglaw is going to collapse in a decade or so anyway. Junior associates don’t want to work. Clients are tired of the high and bringing more work in house. Most firms don’t have a plan for AI. And leadership is still chasing PPP with their heads in the sand.

ahahahahahahahahahahhaa bless your heart.

It will reduce the number of junior associates hired…but make experienced attorneys more productive and richer.

I have never heard people despise their own employees like partners seem to despise their associates (except for a small chosen few).

It’s frankly strange.

I've never met a partner who despises their associates. They certainly expect high quality work and responsiveness. Those aren't unreasonable expectations when the starting pay is north of $200k. A junior associate's main value is their responsiveness and attention to detail. Associates who only want to out in the bare minimum won't last long, especially if there's an economic slowdown.

I guess you haven't met many senior partners. They all complain that associates get paid too much...they get all the benefits paid by the firm that partners have to pay for themselves (the whole partner benefits thing is weird)...the associates are eating into their profit-per-partner, etc.

Associates are a necessary evil. If AI can get rid of most of them...awesome.

You can't bill out AI at $600 an hour. Firms lose money on first year associates because no client is actually paying their billable rates, but they make lots of money off of associates as a whole. Automating them away means less billable hours and less profit for partners

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am guessing you just want to vent. There is no changing BigLaw. Clients pay huge money to use them, and as such expect top tier and rapid service. If your spouse can't take it then he needs to get out.

OP here - yes it is a vent. And DH has been doing this a LONG time and is still chugging along. He is a partner at a large law firm. It is just frustrating that there is ALWAYS a stupid emergency that seems like a non-emergency that has to be taken care of now.

Maybe you can take all the money he makes from
Non emergency emergencies and get a therapist to vent to?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of variations of BigLOL. I am still a partner in biglaw, but managed to sort of scoot myself into a second tier of firm. I bring in a decent amount of work, don't bill a ton of my own hours, but still bring in enough overall to avoid the hatchet man. Live my life with my family, and manage to do rad shit in the free time I create for myself.

The main thing I realized just before the pandemic is that the emergencies are dumb. Genuinely. I don't tolerate that shit anymore. And if a client tries that stunt with me, I just don't work with them anymore.

All this takes a certain amount tolerance for compensation adjustment. So, we have the same lifestyle we did when I was an associate. When I am 80 years old, I am definitely not going to wish I worked more for more comp, and will instead remember fondly the time I spent with my family or the fact that I did a ton of stuff all the losers around me never had time to do. Spending time working a useless white collar biglaw job instead of your actual life is extremely stupid and counterproductive to the human experience.

Unless you are very niche, there are 20 other firms that are virtually indistinguishable from yours full of lawyers happy to treat every request as an emergency

I mean, that’s Biglaw culture right there. If you’re so greedy and paranoid that you make your associates get up at 3am to sit on an overseas “emergency” call because you have to prove you are available 24/7 - it’s going to be a miserable life.

That's why a 2nd year associate is getting paid almost $300k/year. Please tell me what other profession pays minimally experienced professionals so much money? Resident physicians are working longer hours for 25% of the pay and IB associates are making the same with worse hours.

Well that’s the point? Ruining your life for money. Maybe OK when you’re a 28 year old single person, but a little more existential when you are 40 with a neglected spouse & kids.

If you do it right at 28 (save your money), you'll be financially solid by your early-30s. You take a job in-house or with the government and let your nest egg grow over the next 30 years.

For OP, have a conversation with your DH and tell him you're not happy with the distribution of domestic duties. While he may love being a BIGLAW partner, his kids will only be young once....

[Anonymous]

It sounds like OP has a problem with her DH, not BigLaw.

OP, you and DH need to get on the same page. Either he shares your values and agrees to downshift to a less demanding role (in house or lower tier firm or something else) or he is unwilling to downshift and you agree to suck it up and reengineer your life so you’re not so unhappy.

Your venting is a sign that something needs to change: either his behavior or your attitude. Talk to each other, come to a decision together, and support each other as much as possible to make it work.

(Note, changing BigLaw is not an option. The business model is what it is: The clients pay very high billable rates for a very high level of service. They’re paying for complete support and immediate responsiveness, pretty much 24/7. That’s the product BigLaw is selling. If DH no longer wants to provide that service, no problem. I’m guessing he has plenty of other options. But again, BigLaw firms are not going to be less responsive to client emergencies, or even to the non-emergency whims of their clients. High billable rates = High level of service. It is what it is.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are probably afforded a very comfortable life as a result of your husband being a partner at Big Law. lots of people work just as hard or harder and don't have a fraction to show for it as your husband. He can move inhouse and take a pay cut which I'm sure you don't want him to do.

OP - Well sure he makes a lot of money but I don't think the stress is worth it. I would be FINE with him leaving for an in house job. He seems to think most in house jobs doing what he does has the same amount of stress for less money so he might as well stay in big law.

I work full time as well, make 6 figures. On top of that I am the default parent 99% of the time to 3 young kids and keep our house together (bills, maintenance, laundry, food, etc).

Hire a full-time Nanny. They cost about $50k / year plus you can pay them $10k extra. I'm sure this is probably a monthly paycheck (pre-distribution) for your husband.

Alternatively, quit your job and take care of the kids full-time.

Whatever you do, please stop whining that your life is so miserable. It's insulting to the rest of us plebes.