This is what happens....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such an important topic to shine a light on.
We are in our late 60s and hope we respect our kids and their full lives when the time comes. We have friends with early onset dementia and their entire universe is preoccupied with their safety because they won’t budge. Agitation and stubbornness is part of this disease.
I would hire a GOOD social worker and/or lawyer to intervene.

If you were the child or parent?

If you were the adult child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All the people screaming that our parents have the right to live as they choose, wake the F UP.

My parents refused to move. My sister lives with them and, I see now, enabled it so she could keep the roof over her head. Had they moved a few years ago, listened to reason,they would be sitting on easy street with over a mil in the bank, being able to hire caregivers, stay in the lovely home they downsized to.

What they have now: desperation, no money, incontinence, immobilization due to declining health, and destined for a state-run nursing home for one or both that will take their home through estate recovery. Even if one still lives there, if the other dies in nursing home on Medicaid, the state/feds can take about 150K of the value in repayment. And they are still screaming that they won't move and won't go to a nursing home. My father still insists MediCARE will pay for all they need. Totally clueless. My mother will soon be in a wheelchair and/or bedridden all day. My father is too out of it to even care about that, not because he's selfish, but because of a past stroke. He has no capacity to make a good decision.

We cannot afford the 10K plus per month that will be required for them to live the life they desire. So the solution to them is for me to uproot my life and go out there full time and service their needs. I'm not the only one to try to talk sense into them. My aunt (father's sister) tried and all my father would do is scream at her that he knew what he was doing and would not be controlled. My aunt is 96, bought her own addition to my cousin's house and lives well with them, in the life she deserves and loves. She invested in long term care insurance early on. She's fine financially because she made good decisions. She's still so spry and so smart and I'm lucky to have her in my life.

All of this - ALL OF THIS - did NOT have to happen. Years of calling me a control freak and doing NOTHING has put them in this position. It makes me sad and angry and frustrated. I'm hoping when my mother finally gets scared enough, she will allow me and my older sister to come whisk her away from the fresh hell she's living in.

I don’t get the problem. They sell their house, spend down their assets, and find a nursing home that will take Medicaid. They can't take their home with them when they die anyway.

Agree with this. And in some places there are additional resources. Montgomery County has a program for seniors under a certain income level to subsidize rent in retirement places. The parents need to sell the house and move to a life care community.

OP here. Agreed. Problem: they don’t and are considered of sound mind. So now what?

NP here, dealing with two elderly/disabled/stubborn parents. I've had to learn, especially in the last year, that just because they are 'competent' to make decisions-doesn't mean they will make good ones!

In my case, it's mostly my mom, because my Dad's Parkinsons has caused cognitive issues. But she'll go along with whatever he wants, despite it not being grounded in reality. Mom suffered a broken hip last year when Dad fell over on her. She didn't fully recover. They don't want ANY outside help in the home, they won't move to one of the several nice assisted living places near us-Mom thinks 'they're not ready yet'. They are PAST ready!!! I work full time and commute 2 hours a day and am still raising a dc. I do see them daily and do tasks at their house, but it's so stressful everyday to be away at work and worrying ALL.The.Time. My brother and I try till we are blue in the face to get them to get home help (dad is significantly physically disabled). We did finally get them to do POA thankfully before last year, because I sure needed it then. I guess they are just going to stay in that house until one or both of them fall or something awful happens. Then they will both have to go to a nursing home. I can't make them make better choices.

[Anonymous]

This situation sounds miserable... it sounds like you are doing your best as a daughter. I think you could set some boundaries for yourself i.e. I can't come every day, mom and dad, so my friend Sheila (HHA) is going to cover M, W and Friday for me. Take care of yourself, too, OP. And you are right - it won't end well, but that is their choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All the people screaming that our parents have the right to live as they choose, wake the F UP.

My parents refused to move. My sister lives with them and, I see now, enabled it so she could keep the roof over her head. Had they moved a few years ago, listened to reason,they would be sitting on easy street with over a mil in the bank, being able to hire caregivers, stay in the lovely home they downsized to.

What they have now: desperation, no money, incontinence, immobilization due to declining health, and destined for a state-run nursing home for one or both that will take their home through estate recovery. Even if one still lives there, if the other dies in nursing home on Medicaid, the state/feds can take about 150K of the value in repayment. And they are still screaming that they won't move and won't go to a nursing home. My father still insists MediCARE will pay for all they need. Totally clueless. My mother will soon be in a wheelchair and/or bedridden all day. My father is too out of it to even care about that, not because he's selfish, but because of a past stroke. He has no capacity to make a good decision.

We cannot afford the 10K plus per month that will be required for them to live the life they desire. So the solution to them is for me to uproot my life and go out there full time and service their needs. I'm not the only one to try to talk sense into them. My aunt (father's sister) tried and all my father would do is scream at her that he knew what he was doing and would not be controlled. My aunt is 96, bought her own addition to my cousin's house and lives well with them, in the life she deserves and loves. She invested in long term care insurance early on. She's fine financially because she made good decisions. She's still so spry and so smart and I'm lucky to have her in my life.

All of this - ALL OF THIS - did NOT have to happen. Years of calling me a control freak and doing NOTHING has put them in this position. It makes me sad and angry and frustrated. I'm hoping when my mother finally gets scared enough, she will allow me and my older sister to come whisk her away from the fresh hell she's living in.

I’m very young and my parents are late 50s. I am staring this down.

Uh, late 50s is young. How old will you be in 30 years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This situation sounds miserable... it sounds like you are doing your best as a daughter. I think you could set some boundaries for yourself i.e. I can't come every day, mom and dad, so my friend Sheila (HHA) is going to cover M, W and Friday for me. Take care of yourself, too, OP. And you are right - it won't end well, but that is their choice.

This. You need to set boundaries and take care of yourself. Are you their only child? They can hire outside help but they probably don’t want to

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All the people screaming that our parents have the right to live as they choose, wake the F UP.

My parents refused to move. My sister lives with them and, I see now, enabled it so she could keep the roof over her head. Had they moved a few years ago, listened to reason,they would be sitting on easy street with over a mil in the bank, being able to hire caregivers, stay in the lovely home they downsized to.

What they have now: desperation, no money, incontinence, immobilization due to declining health, and destined for a state-run nursing home for one or both that will take their home through estate recovery. Even if one still lives there, if the other dies in nursing home on Medicaid, the state/feds can take about 150K of the value in repayment. And they are still screaming that they won't move and won't go to a nursing home. My father still insists MediCARE will pay for all they need. Totally clueless. My mother will soon be in a wheelchair and/or bedridden all day. My father is too out of it to even care about that, not because he's selfish, but because of a past stroke. He has no capacity to make a good decision.

We cannot afford the 10K plus per month that will be required for them to live the life they desire. So the solution to them is for me to uproot my life and go out there full time and service their needs. I'm not the only one to try to talk sense into them. My aunt (father's sister) tried and all my father would do is scream at her that he knew what he was doing and would not be controlled. My aunt is 96, bought her own addition to my cousin's house and lives well with them, in the life she deserves and loves. She invested in long term care insurance early on. She's fine financially because she made good decisions. She's still so spry and so smart and I'm lucky to have her in my life.

All of this - ALL OF THIS - did NOT have to happen. Years of calling me a control freak and doing NOTHING has put them in this position. It makes me sad and angry and frustrated. I'm hoping when my mother finally gets scared enough, she will allow me and my older sister to come whisk her away from the fresh hell she's living in.

I don’t get the problem. They sell their house, spend down their assets, and find a nursing home that will take Medicaid. They can't take their home with them when they die anyway.

Agree with this. And in some places there are additional resources. Montgomery County has a program for seniors under a certain income level to subsidize rent in retirement places. The parents need to sell the house and move to a life care community.

OP here. Agreed. Problem: they don’t and are considered of sound mind. So now what?

NP here, dealing with two elderly/disabled/stubborn parents. I've had to learn, especially in the last year, that just because they are 'competent' to make decisions-doesn't mean they will make good ones!

In my case, it's mostly my mom, because my Dad's Parkinsons has caused cognitive issues. But she'll go along with whatever he wants, despite it not being grounded in reality. Mom suffered a broken hip last year when Dad fell over on her. She didn't fully recover. They don't want ANY outside help in the home, they won't move to one of the several nice assisted living places near us-Mom thinks 'they're not ready yet'. They are PAST ready!!! I work full time and commute 2 hours a day and am still raising a dc. I do see them daily and do tasks at their house, but it's so stressful everyday to be away at work and worrying ALL.The.Time. My brother and I try till we are blue in the face to get them to get home help (dad is significantly physically disabled). We did finally get them to do POA thankfully before last year, because I sure needed it then. I guess they are just going to stay in that house until one or both of them fall or something awful happens. Then they will both have to go to a nursing home. I can't make them make better choices.

PP, ooof, that sounds like a lot. How are they financially? When people are well-heeled, then having only one plan - remain in the home - seems okay. Where I struggle is when finances are limited for the parents as well as the children, especially when that refusal to consider options could wipe out the children (and grandchildren). My goal is to remove these kinds of burdens from our kids so they are able to be present with us and their kids when the time comes. Yes, it will still be a struggle, but ideally money worries will not be a part of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your system (I'm Canadian) is all about extracting a lifetime of wealth and handing it over to the elder care "industry." You don't care about seniors in any way, shape or form. Follow the money - it's always about that. Here in my province we charge people less than 2K a month for long term care. We also get vilified by the US media for allowing Alzheimer's patients in the earliest stages to use medical aid in dying.

We don't strip seniors of all their assets and impoverish the spouse. I don't have any kids and I will choose medical aid in dying and skip dementia so I have more peace of mind than any older American does. My assets will go to the daughter of a friend who wasted her life in the helping industry earning peanuts so at least she won't be poor in her old age.

This is not allowed legally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is the sister who lives with them in all of this?

OP, I stopped worrying about my parents after they gave my brain-dead sister POA, etc. They were of reasonably sound mind when paperwork was executed. When I first saw the documentation I expressed my strong view of their choices. Then I dropped it. Afterwords I refused to get sucked into all the resulting drama.

OP hear with an update. Thank you for responding and you are very smart.

My sister actually brought up filial law in a backhanded way, i.e. “good thing we aren’t living in a state that has one”. Told her that that filial laws usually require criminal neglect and that me helping with bills, treating to carry out, buying a lift chair, etc, will not be considered past willful neglect. In addition, I reminded her that joint funds can’t be confiscated to pay their nursing home under these laws, etc.

I can’t with them anymore. Disengaging.

What do you mean in the bold there?

That they can’t take my husband’s salary to care for MY parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You sound more smug than sad...and no sign of love at all.

You blame so much of their current situation on them. A stroke? Incontinence?

Listen, they have never been old before. Nor have you. It is scary and your dad was hoping he could handle it as he has other life challenges. You did not WIN because he seems to have made bad choices. Stop being so resentful, and self righteous. Give empathy a try.

+1 What a truly depressing thread.

I'm also confused how if they refused to move they lost $1m? If they didn't sell it, they still have the asset. Did the house depreciate $1m?!?

They had over 1 mil in addition to the house. He had it all in one very high risk fund, would not hire a financial planner and let it ride all the way into the ground

[Anonymous]

In my family's case, my stubborn and emotionally abusive mother refused to be moved from our family home. Our father was more than willing but he always, always, gave into her childish tantrums. He was in much better health and she was on god knows how many medications and declining rapidly. Eventually my oldest sister tricked mom into giving her POA and along with my dad sold the house and moved into a senior community where mom could get the extra help she needed. Dad recovered a bit of a social life through the clubs and such and mom just sat in their apartment getting angrier and angrier. They're both gone now, but I wish we had affected this changed years earlier when my Dad could have enjoyed much more of his declining years in peace. Even after selling their home and factoring in their income used to pay for the new residence, we still had to come out of pocket about 1,000 a month from each adult child to keep it going smoothly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All the people screaming that our parents have the right to live as they choose, wake the F UP.

My parents refused to move. My sister lives with them and, I see now, enabled it so she could keep the roof over her head. Had they moved a few years ago, listened to reason,they would be sitting on easy street with over a mil in the bank, being able to hire caregivers, stay in the lovely home they downsized to.

What they have now: desperation, no money, incontinence, immobilization due to declining health, and destined for a state-run nursing home for one or both that will take their home through estate recovery. Even if one still lives there, if the other dies in nursing home on Medicaid, the state/feds can take about 150K of the value in repayment. And they are still screaming that they won't move and won't go to a nursing home. My father still insists MediCARE will pay for all they need. Totally clueless. My mother will soon be in a wheelchair and/or bedridden all day. My father is too out of it to even care about that, not because he's selfish, but because of a past stroke. He has no capacity to make a good decision.

We cannot afford the 10K plus per month that will be required for them to live the life they desire. So the solution to them is for me to uproot my life and go out there full time and service their needs. I'm not the only one to try to talk sense into them. My aunt (father's sister) tried and all my father would do is scream at her that he knew what he was doing and would not be controlled. My aunt is 96, bought her own addition to my cousin's house and lives well with them, in the life she deserves and loves. She invested in long term care insurance early on. She's fine financially because she made good decisions. She's still so spry and so smart and I'm lucky to have her in my life.

All of this - ALL OF THIS - did NOT have to happen. Years of calling me a control freak and doing NOTHING has put them in this position. It makes me sad and angry and frustrated. I'm hoping when my mother finally gets scared enough, she will allow me and my older sister to come whisk her away from the fresh hell she's living in.

I don’t get the problem. They sell their house, spend down their assets, and find a nursing home that will take Medicaid. They can't take their home with them when they die anyway.

Agree with this. And in some places there are additional resources. Montgomery County has a program for seniors under a certain income level to subsidize rent in retirement places. The parents need to sell the house and move to a life care community.

OP here. Agreed. Problem: they don’t and are considered of sound mind. So now what?

NP here, dealing with two elderly/disabled/stubborn parents. I've had to learn, especially in the last year, that just because they are 'competent' to make decisions-doesn't mean they will make good ones!

In my case, it's mostly my mom, because my Dad's Parkinsons has caused cognitive issues. But she'll go along with whatever he wants, despite it not being grounded in reality. Mom suffered a broken hip last year when Dad fell over on her. She didn't fully recover. They don't want ANY outside help in the home, they won't move to one of the several nice assisted living places near us-Mom thinks 'they're not ready yet'. They are PAST ready!!! I work full time and commute 2 hours a day and am still raising a dc. I do see them daily and do tasks at their house, but it's so stressful everyday to be away at work and worrying ALL.The.Time. My brother and I try till we are blue in the face to get them to get home help (dad is significantly physically disabled). We did finally get them to do POA thankfully before last year, because I sure needed it then. I guess they are just going to stay in that house until one or both of them fall or something awful happens. Then they will both have to go to a nursing home. I can't make them make better choices.

PP, ooof, that sounds like a lot. How are they financially? When people are well-heeled, then having only one plan - remain in the home - seems okay. Where I struggle is when finances are limited for the parents as well as the children, especially when that refusal to consider options could wipe out the children (and grandchildren). My goal is to remove these kinds of burdens from our kids so they are able to be present with us and their kids when the time comes. Yes, it will still be a struggle, but ideally money worries will not be a part of it.

They are modestly secure-house is paid for, no debt, they both get SS, he gets a small check from the VA (he has a service connected disability, not the parkinsons) they have modest retirement accounts. I think a year or two of a nursing home would wipe that out. Brother and I asked them to consider legally signing the house to us 6 years ago-to protect Mom who will presumably outlive Dad, and having parkinsons (late stage now) it's inevitable that care of some sort will be needed at some point. They 'weren't ready'...I get it but brother and I are both established in our careers and homes so it's not like we were doing anything weird and it would have been all legally done with an atty experienced in elder law. Also if Mom was to need care, it would protect Dad also.

So brother and I have accepted that this is their choice and they may not be able to keep this asset in the family, that they worked all their lives for. Even if they did it 'today' it is very very likely that Dad will need care before the lookback time expires. They won't do it (they did put the house in a trust for us but it doesn't protect it from medicaid lookback) because they are 'going to stay here until the end'...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your system (I'm Canadian) is all about extracting a lifetime of wealth and handing it over to the elder care "industry." You don't care about seniors in any way, shape or form. Follow the money - it's always about that. Here in my province we charge people less than 2K a month for long term care. We also get vilified by the US media for allowing Alzheimer's patients in the earliest stages to use medical aid in dying.

We don't strip seniors of all their assets and impoverish the spouse. I don't have any kids and I will choose medical aid in dying and skip dementia so I have more peace of mind than any older American does. My assets will go to the daughter of a friend who wasted her life in the helping industry earning peanuts so at least she won't be poor in her old age.

This is not allowed legally.

I'm not here to defend the US system as I largely agree with the Canadian poster. But in reference to the bold above, Medicaid allows for up to $148,620 in assets for the "community spouse" to retain, excluding a home (some states do set a lower limit and that's because they are awful). If the community spouse, however, needs to move into a nursing home and requires Medicaid, then they would spend down those remaining assets, including the sale of the house. That was okay with my parents as no one was living with them. It's terrible for adult children, usually female, who quit jobs, move in to care for the parents, and then are left effectively homeless when the house is sold.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your system (I'm Canadian) is all about extracting a lifetime of wealth and handing it over to the elder care "industry." You don't care about seniors in any way, shape or form. Follow the money - it's always about that. Here in my province we charge people less than 2K a month for long term care. We also get vilified by the US media for allowing Alzheimer's patients in the earliest stages to use medical aid in dying.

We don't strip seniors of all their assets and impoverish the spouse. I don't have any kids and I will choose medical aid in dying and skip dementia so I have more peace of mind than any older American does. My assets will go to the daughter of a friend who wasted her life in the helping industry earning peanuts so at least she won't be poor in her old age.

This is not allowed legally.

I'm not here to defend the US system as I largely agree with the Canadian poster. But in reference to the bold above, Medicaid allows for up to $148,620 in assets for the "community spouse" to retain, excluding a home (some states do set a lower limit and that's because they are awful). If the community spouse, however, needs to move into a nursing home and requires Medicaid, then they would spend down those remaining assets, including the sale of the house. That was okay with my parents as no one was living with them. It's terrible for adult children, usually female, who quit jobs, move in to care for the parents, and then are left effectively homeless when the house is sold.

Most don’t quit their jobs and move in. Be real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is the sister who lives with them in all of this?

OP, I stopped worrying about my parents after they gave my brain-dead sister POA, etc. They were of reasonably sound mind when paperwork was executed. When I first saw the documentation I expressed my strong view of their choices. Then I dropped it. Afterwords I refused to get sucked into all the resulting drama.

OP hear with an update. Thank you for responding and you are very smart.

My sister actually brought up filial law in a backhanded way, i.e. “good thing we aren’t living in a state that has one”. Told her that that filial laws usually require criminal neglect and that me helping with bills, treating to carry out, buying a lift chair, etc, will not be considered past willful neglect. In addition, I reminded her that joint funds can’t be confiscated to pay their nursing home under these laws, etc.

I can’t with them anymore. Disengaging.

You are making stuff up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your system (I'm Canadian) is all about extracting a lifetime of wealth and handing it over to the elder care "industry." You don't care about seniors in any way, shape or form. Follow the money - it's always about that. Here in my province we charge people less than 2K a month for long term care. We also get vilified by the US media for allowing Alzheimer's patients in the earliest stages to use medical aid in dying.

We don't strip seniors of all their assets and impoverish the spouse. I don't have any kids and I will choose medical aid in dying and skip dementia so I have more peace of mind than any older American does. My assets will go to the daughter of a friend who wasted her life in the helping industry earning peanuts so at least she won't be poor in her old age.

This is not allowed legally.

I'm not here to defend the US system as I largely agree with the Canadian poster. But in reference to the bold above, Medicaid allows for up to $148,620 in assets for the "community spouse" to retain, excluding a home (some states do set a lower limit and that's because they are awful). If the community spouse, however, needs to move into a nursing home and requires Medicaid, then they would spend down those remaining assets, including the sale of the house. That was okay with my parents as no one was living with them. It's terrible for adult children, usually female, who quit jobs, move in to care for the parents, and then are left effectively homeless when the house is sold.

Most don’t quit their jobs and move in. Be real.

Where did I say “most”? I simply said it was terrible in the situations where it does occur.