Is dual-enrollment a scam?

[Anonymous]

IB is better than dual enrollment for students pursuing challenging/elite 4-year academic university experience and break into elite professions.

DE is better for students who want to get the most commercial value out of school in minimum time and move on to a non-elite non-academic career and start making middle-class money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IB is better than dual enrollment for students pursuing challenging/elite 4-year academic university experience and break into elite professions.

DE is better for students who want to get the most commercial value out of school in minimum time and move on to a non-elite non-academic career and start making middle-class money.

Can you explain your reasoning? You are just making claims that we’re supposed to take at face value. IB prepares you for “elite” universities and break into “elite” professions? What are those universities and professions? In all seriousness IB is not the golden ticket you make it seem.

There are many routes to getting into an elite university and having a spike of extreme competence in a narrow area (think national awards) is one of them. IB tends to prepare more well rounded students, that arguably may not be as impressive as the national award student.

DE offers a broader variety of classes and more depth. Take math for example, beyond Calculus 1 and 2 and Statistics, there’s Calculus 3, Linear Algebra and Differential Equations. Sure, these are community college classes, but freshman undergraduate classes are not vastly different and the student can always retake those classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here. I don't know why I am continually surprised at the narrow thinking of so many DCUM posters. Montgomery County is one of the most diverse counties in the nation. Just because something doesn't appeal to your family doesn't mean it isn't appropriate for other families. There are many lower income families, immigrant families, families who aren't about to send their girls off to 4 year colleges, families whose teenagers contribute to running the household, families with children with mental health issues, etc. who find Montgomery College to be an excellent opportunity to excellent careers. Not every kid is interested in a typical American high school experience and not every college bound student wants a typical American 4-yr college program. Fortunately, students have many pathways to find success in Montgomery County, and some of those pathways go through MC.

The relationship between MCPS and MC has been around for a while, and it changes and adapts as state laws/initiatives and business needs change. Prior to 2015, students could drop out of high school at age 16. Some did this so that they could work and support families. Students could get their GEDs and then enroll at MC to begin working towards an associate's degree while also working. For 2016-2017 compulsory HS attendance went until age 17, and then beginning in 2018 it changed to age 18. This corresponds with the decrease in enrollment at MC beginning after 2015. Since then, MCPS and MC have been experimenting with different programs beyond simple dual enrollment for some classes. Early College, Middle College, and Jump Start all allow high school students to simultaneously earn an associates degree along with their high school diploma. https://www.montgomerycollege.edu/high-school-students/dual-enrollment/degree-and-pathway-programs/index.html

And there seems to be complete blindness to the Universities of Shady Grove. USG’s mission is “To support and expand pathways to affordable, high-quality public higher education that meet the distinctive needs of the region and are designed to support workforce and economic development in the state; ..." They offer a series of degrees in the health services, education, biotechnology, computer science, and cybersecurity fields all of which are careers in high demand to feed our existing county businesses. There is even a program to support students through HS to a BS degree https://www.acesmontgomery.org/ . So, a motivated student can do Early College at MC and also work to save tuition money. Then at 18 they enroll at USG, can still work and live at home, and take only 2 more years to get their BS. They graduate at age 20 debt free and start their career locally at $50k-$80k. That is a great deal for economic mobility.

So no, dual-enrollment isn't a scam. It is an economic engine not targeted at the DCUM crowd.

very well said. The problem is that not all parents understand the different pathways MCPS is offering. I think counsellors/MCPS needs to do a little better in educating parents/kids the pros and cons of different pathways. I am happy that MCPS is trying to offer something for all types of students but need to explain these pathways to kids and parents in better way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. I don't know why I am continually surprised at the narrow thinking of so many DCUM posters. Montgomery County is one of the most diverse counties in the nation. Just because something doesn't appeal to your family doesn't mean it isn't appropriate for other families. There are many lower income families, immigrant families, families who aren't about to send their girls off to 4 year colleges, families whose teenagers contribute to running the household, families with children with mental health issues, etc. who find Montgomery College to be an excellent opportunity to excellent careers. Not every kid is interested in a typical American high school experience and not every college bound student wants a typical American 4-yr college program. Fortunately, students have many pathways to find success in Montgomery County, and some of those pathways go through MC.

The relationship between MCPS and MC has been around for a while, and it changes and adapts as state laws/initiatives and business needs change. Prior to 2015, students could drop out of high school at age 16. Some did this so that they could work and support families. Students could get their GEDs and then enroll at MC to begin working towards an associate's degree while also working. For 2016-2017 compulsory HS attendance went until age 17, and then beginning in 2018 it changed to age 18. This corresponds with the decrease in enrollment at MC beginning after 2015. Since then, MCPS and MC have been experimenting with different programs beyond simple dual enrollment for some classes. Early College, Middle College, and Jump Start all allow high school students to simultaneously earn an associates degree along with their high school diploma. https://www.montgomerycollege.edu/high-school-students/dual-enrollment/degree-and-pathway-programs/index.html

And there seems to be complete blindness to the Universities of Shady Grove. USG’s mission is “To support and expand pathways to affordable, high-quality public higher education that meet the distinctive needs of the region and are designed to support workforce and economic development in the state; ..." They offer a series of degrees in the health services, education, biotechnology, computer science, and cybersecurity fields all of which are careers in high demand to feed our existing county businesses. There is even a program to support students through HS to a BS degree https://www.acesmontgomery.org/ . So, a motivated student can do Early College at MC and also work to save tuition money. Then at 18 they enroll at USG, can still work and live at home, and take only 2 more years to get their BS. They graduate at age 20 debt free and start their career locally at $50k-$80k. That is a great deal for economic mobility.

So no, dual-enrollment isn't a scam. It is an economic engine not targeted at the DCUM crowd.

very well said. The problem is that not all parents understand the different pathways MCPS is offering. I think counsellors/MCPS needs to do a little better in educating parents/kids the pros and cons of different pathways. I am happy that MCPS is trying to offer something for all types of students but need to explain these pathways to kids and parents in better way.

What would you like MCPS do? Pull you on the side and explain life too you? The information is there, do your own research, make your own decisions.

[Anonymous]

Does the student have to go to one of MC campus to attend classes? How does the transportation work for students who doesn’t have a car? Will MCPS school bus take students from HS to a MC campus?

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't dual enrollment satisfy a good chunk of required gen ed classes for college? And because you don't have to pay extra for these MC classes, it can save time and money for getting your 4-year or associates degree?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is better than dual enrollment for students pursuing challenging/elite 4-year academic university experience and break into elite professions.

DE is better for students who want to get the most commercial value out of school in minimum time and move on to a non-elite non-academic career and start making middle-class money.

Can you explain your reasoning? You are just making claims that we’re supposed to take at face value. IB prepares you for “elite” universities and break into “elite” professions? What are those universities and professions? In all seriousness IB is not the golden ticket you make it seem.

There are many routes to getting into an elite university and having a spike of extreme competence in a narrow area (think national awards) is one of them. IB tends to prepare more well rounded students, that arguably may not be as impressive as the national award student.

DE offers a broader variety of classes and more depth. Take math for example, beyond Calculus 1 and 2 and Statistics, there’s Calculus 3, Linear Algebra and Differential Equations. Sure, these are community college classes, but freshman undergraduate classes are not vastly different and the student can always retake those classes.

I didn't say IB is a golden ticket.
IB has Multivariable Calculus (3) and Differential Equations.IB is well known to all major universities, a complete curriculum. Montgomery College courses are not, except for the well-focused AA/AS degrees, which appeal to people who want to finish school and start a career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IB is better than dual enrollment for students pursuing challenging/elite 4-year academic university experience and break into elite professions.

DE is better for students who want to get the most commercial value out of school in minimum time and move on to a non-elite non-academic career and start making middle-class money.

Correct. And that's what I corrected my son when he parroted what the teacher said about IB being a waste of time. My for my son, who is trying to get into those more competitive schools, IB is absolutely better. But as you said, for students who want to go to school at the least cost, DE makes way more sense.

But that's not how some in MCPS are positioning it. It's DE over everything else, which is nuts. There are also real social tradeoffs to consider and weigh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does the student have to go to one of MC campus to attend classes? How does the transportation work for students who doesn’t have a car? Will MCPS school bus take students from HS to a MC campus?

Honestly, I'm not sure but I imagine some sort of busing has to be provided since the high school students are educated as a cohort within the MC campus environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wouldn't dual enrollment satisfy a good chunk of required gen ed classes for college? And because you don't have to pay extra for these MC classes, it can save time and money for getting your 4-year or associates degree?

If you go to one of the University of System of Maryland colleges, yes. If you go to school outside of the state, it's a crapshoot as to whether your MC credits will transfer or not.

[Anonymous]

I teach DE students at a different community college. I have one heading to NYU this fall. Another applied to Harvard. They're intelligent, highly motivated and committed to completing their degrees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is better than dual enrollment for students pursuing challenging/elite 4-year academic university experience and break into elite professions.

DE is better for students who want to get the most commercial value out of school in minimum time and move on to a non-elite non-academic career and start making middle-class money.

Correct. And that's what I corrected my son when he parroted what the teacher said about IB being a waste of time. My for my son, who is trying to get into those more competitive schools, IB is absolutely better. But as you said, for students who want to go to school at the least cost, DE makes way more sense.

But that's not how some in MCPS are positioning it. It's DE over everything else, which is nuts. There are also real social tradeoffs to consider and weigh.

But it's not like MCPS can give the explanation above - IB is better for students pursuing elite 4 year universitys and DE is better for students who want to get most commercial value out of school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is better than dual enrollment for students pursuing challenging/elite 4-year academic university experience and break into elite professions.

DE is better for students who want to get the most commercial value out of school in minimum time and move on to a non-elite non-academic career and start making middle-class money.

Can you explain your reasoning? You are just making claims that we’re supposed to take at face value. IB prepares you for “elite” universities and break into “elite” professions? What are those universities and professions? In all seriousness IB is not the golden ticket you make it seem.

There are many routes to getting into an elite university and having a spike of extreme competence in a narrow area (think national awards) is one of them. IB tends to prepare more well rounded students, that arguably may not be as impressive as the national award student.

DE offers a broader variety of classes and more depth. Take math for example, beyond Calculus 1 and 2 and Statistics, there’s Calculus 3, Linear Algebra and Differential Equations. Sure, these are community college classes, but freshman undergraduate classes are not vastly different and the student can always retake those classes.

I didn't say IB is a golden ticket.
IB has Multivariable Calculus (3) and Differential Equations.IB is well known to all major universities, a complete curriculum. Montgomery College courses are not, except for the well-focused AA/AS degrees, which appeal to people who want to finish school and start a career.

Can you provide a link that IB has Multivariable Calculus and Differential Equations? I tried to look up, but couldn't find anything to show it to be the case. In fact I think you're just bs-ing.

IB, AP or DE, are looked mostly the same at all universities. CC is more of an unknown and occasionally you might need to document a syllabus, but if in state it is easier to transfer credits. In my view IB is the worst of all, because it locks you in to a complete curriculum. This is too rigid for the student to explore interests in depth, and can't take an easier route to subjects he's not interested in (e.g. languages). AP is more well known than IB, and if you score a 5 on the AP exam it is generally easy to get credit or higher placement. For DE you will get the credit that may or may not be transferrable, but you can also take the AP exam at the end if you choose to, so it really makes it the most flexible, convenient and widely available of all options.

If I were to compare in Math alone an IB Diploma student with a student that finished Linear Algebra and Differential Equations at the Community College dual enrollment, there no contest, CC DE is far more impressive. I'd expect that the IB student is better at writing and languages, but there are other way to demostrate competence in those areas. On another note I know many students accepted to HYPSM with CC DE coursework under their belt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is better than dual enrollment for students pursuing challenging/elite 4-year academic university experience and break into elite professions.

DE is better for students who want to get the most commercial value out of school in minimum time and move on to a non-elite non-academic career and start making middle-class money.

Correct. And that's what I corrected my son when he parroted what the teacher said about IB being a waste of time. My for my son, who is trying to get into those more competitive schools, IB is absolutely better. But as you said, for students who want to go to school at the least cost, DE makes way more sense.

But that's not how some in MCPS are positioning it. It's DE over everything else, which is nuts. There are also real social tradeoffs to consider and weigh.

But it's not like MCPS can give the explanation above - IB is better for students pursuing elite 4 year universitys and DE is better for students who want to get most commercial value out of school.

How so? Do you have a reference or proof for this, or its just you making stuff up?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is better than dual enrollment for students pursuing challenging/elite 4-year academic university experience and break into elite professions.

DE is better for students who want to get the most commercial value out of school in minimum time and move on to a non-elite non-academic career and start making middle-class money.

Correct. And that's what I corrected my son when he parroted what the teacher said about IB being a waste of time. My for my son, who is trying to get into those more competitive schools, IB is absolutely better. But as you said, for students who want to go to school at the least cost, DE makes way more sense.

But that's not how some in MCPS are positioning it. It's DE over everything else, which is nuts. There are also real social tradeoffs to consider and weigh.

It just sounds like you are trying to rationalize the choices you made for your son. IB is NOT absolutely better for admission to competitive schools. You've never made a single cogent argument on why IB is better than DE or AP.

Is IB coursework more rigurous? In what way, can you compare the syllabus side by side? Do IB students have an edge compared to non-IB students? Generally yes, but you're not comparing apples to apples because of the demographics that IB schools tend to attract.