Thoughts on cub scouts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son is in 5th grade and we've done scouts since he was in K. I am in it for the outdoor experience and the life skills. He and his den planned the majority of our camping trip last weekend - food, making fires, cooking over the fires, coming up with a campfire skit they all agreed on, emceeing the evening program for the younger scouts, cleaning up the camp site. It was amazing. It's been a really, really great experience for him.

As a practicing Quaker with many LGBTQ friends and family, do I love the historical baggage and the "hero"/military aspect? No. No I do not. I REALLY wish there were a strong outdoor school or program in the DC area, like Living Earth in Charlottesville. Honestly, I don't understand why there isn't. But there isn't, and so we are stuck with the scouts.

ahh cafeteria morality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is in 5th grade and we've done scouts since he was in K. I am in it for the outdoor experience and the life skills. He and his den planned the majority of our camping trip last weekend - food, making fires, cooking over the fires, coming up with a campfire skit they all agreed on, emceeing the evening program for the younger scouts, cleaning up the camp site. It was amazing. It's been a really, really great experience for him.

As a practicing Quaker with many LGBTQ friends and family, do I love the historical baggage and the "hero"/military aspect? No. No I do not. I REALLY wish there were a strong outdoor school or program in the DC area, like Living Earth in Charlottesville. Honestly, I don't understand why there isn't. But there isn't, and so we are stuck with the scouts.

Has your son ever asked how you reconcile your support for your “many LGBTQ friends and family” with your support for an organization that allows them to be excluded? Do you have plans for how you will answer when he does? Have you thought about what it will mean if he doesn’t?

If, God forbid, your son is a victim of abuse in Scouts will you be able to tell him you had no idea this was a problem? Will you tell him it was because planning a camping trip was too much of a hassle?

You know Scouts include LGBTQ members right?

DP here.
We have several LGBTQ members in our troop, parents and children. I can think of 7, but there are probably more that I don’t even know about. Fine by me. The more, the merrier. That’s what’s missing from this thread: an understanding that there are many welcoming troops.

I think everyone knows that there are welcoming troops. People object to the idea that access is based on whether your troop happens to be a welcoming one. An organization has to take responsibility for everything it allows, so BSA allowing troops to ban LGBTQ kids means BSA is a discriminatory organization. They’re allowed to say “hey, our values are inclusion so if you want to be BSA you have to be inclusive” but they’d rather just allow LGBTQ kids to be excluded.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If you’d like to join an organization that basically did a sorry/not sorry on decades of sexual abuse then sure. If not, then no.

I know that they've cleaned house and changed their policies, but between this and the years of being anti-LGBTQ, I just couldn't do it

+1 Not enough reform.

“Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about things that matter.” - MLK Jr.

Supporting/participating in the Boy Scouts is tacit approval. They have made strides in some areas, not so much in others.

Curious to know what enough reform would be for you? They now accept LGBTQ members. They gave a strong youth protection policy. They need to solve world hunger? What are you looking for?

I do believe crines were committed. I also believe not every claimant has enough proof to win a court case at this point...which leads to some people just seeing the billboard on the highway and looking for cash from the lawyers who are also looking for cash.

+1
I would like to know this, too.
If people are already cleaning house, changing policies, speaking publicly about previous sins AND working for change, what else can they do?

Disappear

NP here. I hope those of you are are completely unforgiving of the BSA are equally strident about other organizations that have abused minors.

So, I hope that you are trying to get USA Gymnastics shut down, and the Catholic Church, high school football, college lacrosse and collegiate fraternities. All of these have had rampant sexual abuse of children and minors. All of them continue to provide programming. Most of them are in the same category of "not enough restitution" to their victims and most of them try to conceal the extent of the abuses that occurred within their organizations.

There are many organizations out there that have given protective cover for terrible, evil people who abused minors within their ranks. The BSA has had a LOT more reform in documented training and leadership and changes of practice than virtually all of those organizations.

Some of the groups you listed are organizations and some are categories. Yes there’s absolutely no way I would leave my child in the care of the Catholic Church.. But “high school football” is not a single organization which had a sex abuse cover up— I would not let my kid participate in a program if it had.

The issue is also not that they haven’t paid “enough” restitution, because I personally don’t think there’s an “enough” that makes up for the betrayal. It’s actively trying to reduce the amount, declare bankruptcy to avoid paying, and continuing not to help the victims which I think makes it unlikely that the organization has genuinely changed.

That is pretty much standard business practice. It was done for asbestos, talc powder (J&J), oxycotin,

Does that make you feel like they are more trustworthy? That they will be incentivized to report and immediately take action if your child is being molested? Or will they follow their standard business practice and lie and cover it up, meanwhile your child suffers trauma?

I wouldn’t leave the Sackler family in charge of my child either but I think that’s an AWFULLY low bar against which to measure an institution which claims to be working in the service of children.

OK..fair point on the Sacklers but this is just common practice for class action suits.

I’m sure you’re right about it being common practice, but it’s execution has made them, in my view, even less trustworthy with the safety of children.

So they sell off the assets, close the org, and just write checks to everyone that raises their hand as a victim.

So by the bolded, are you implying that you don’t believe the boys and men who have come forward, or the testimony of the organization officials who confessed to covering it up? Or you feel that enough has been done for them?

It’s hard to respond without understanding the thrust of your objection. I did not say to close the organization, I said to admit the wrong doing and another poster accurately added to release the files on the abusers. Which of those steps do you object to?

I believe crines were committed. I also believe not every claimant has enough proof to win a court case at this point...which leads to some people just seeing the billboard on the highway and looking for cash from the lawyers who are also looking for cash

Do you believe the organization has done enough for the victims? Clearly you don’t believe everyone claiming to be a victim, and that’s potentially legitimate, but do you believe that for the people who are “real” victims, enough has been done? Because the trouble I have with this is those victims were the kids the organization was supposed to protect. Instead they covered up the abuse. Now (2022 now) they’re trying to avoid paying the victims. So how do I trust someone with my kid who is still proving that they shouldn’t have been trusted with kids before?

I do t believe enough can possibly be done. Is a settlement really going to help. Would doubling it make a difference? Making sure it does not happen again makes a difference.

Doing better going forward makes a difference to the kids now—if it is effective. But I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive from the organization helping the kids they hurt. They could release the data they have to help criminal prosecutions in the states they are still possible, for example, which helps not only the kids who were abused as scouts but also the other kids that were probably victims of the same adults. Those files still exist and something could be done now— 2022 now— to help. You’re probably right there’s no such thing as “enough” but I don’t think that’s a reason to not do **anything**

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stop feeding the TROLL!! There is no amount of coaxing that will get this person to agree that Scouting can be good.

Sure there is—
1. BSA could as a policy require non-discrimination against LBGTQ youth, and tell the groups that refuse to allow those children that they’re no longer allowed to be affiliated with BSA.
2. They could behave decently to the known victims of abuse who they conspired to abuse over the years by sheltering their abusers.


It’s amazing you think a bar basically laid on the floor of decency is too high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is in 5th grade and we've done scouts since he was in K. I am in it for the outdoor experience and the life skills. He and his den planned the majority of our camping trip last weekend - food, making fires, cooking over the fires, coming up with a campfire skit they all agreed on, emceeing the evening program for the younger scouts, cleaning up the camp site. It was amazing. It's been a really, really great experience for him.

As a practicing Quaker with many LGBTQ friends and family, do I love the historical baggage and the "hero"/military aspect? No. No I do not. I REALLY wish there were a strong outdoor school or program in the DC area, like Living Earth in Charlottesville. Honestly, I don't understand why there isn't. But there isn't, and so we are stuck with the scouts.

Has your son ever asked how you reconcile your support for your “many LGBTQ friends and family” with your support for an organization that allows them to be excluded? Do you have plans for how you will answer when he does? Have you thought about what it will mean if he doesn’t?

If, God forbid, your son is a victim of abuse in Scouts will you be able to tell him you had no idea this was a problem? Will you tell him it was because planning a camping trip was too much of a hassle?

You know Scouts include LGBTQ members right?

DP here.
We have several LGBTQ members in our troop, parents and children. I can think of 7, but there are probably more that I don’t even know about. Fine by me. The more, the merrier. That’s what’s missing from this thread: an understanding that there are many welcoming troops.

I think everyone knows that there are welcoming troops. People object to the idea that access is based on whether your troop happens to be a welcoming one. An organization has to take responsibility for everything it allows, so BSA allowing troops to ban LGBTQ kids means BSA is a discriminatory organization. They’re allowed to say “hey, our values are inclusion so if you want to be BSA you have to be inclusive” but they’d rather just allow LGBTQ kids to be excluded.

I don’t see it that way at all. Your average parent who wants to provide inclusive programming is already doing good work. They are giving time and energy to providing a strong scouting experience to kids willing and able to come. (Remember: you don’t have to join your nearest troop. We didn’t, because the nearest troop excludes girls.) I do not hold these parents responsible for BSA’s policies. They are working from within to offer great programming for all, and maybe one day they can help change policies organization-wide.

If we hold these well-meaning parents accountable for the policies they CAN’T control, then we won’t get anywhere. Sometimes change starts small.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is in 5th grade and we've done scouts since he was in K. I am in it for the outdoor experience and the life skills. He and his den planned the majority of our camping trip last weekend - food, making fires, cooking over the fires, coming up with a campfire skit they all agreed on, emceeing the evening program for the younger scouts, cleaning up the camp site. It was amazing. It's been a really, really great experience for him.

As a practicing Quaker with many LGBTQ friends and family, do I love the historical baggage and the "hero"/military aspect? No. No I do not. I REALLY wish there were a strong outdoor school or program in the DC area, like Living Earth in Charlottesville. Honestly, I don't understand why there isn't. But there isn't, and so we are stuck with the scouts.

Has your son ever asked how you reconcile your support for your “many LGBTQ friends and family” with your support for an organization that allows them to be excluded? Do you have plans for how you will answer when he does? Have you thought about what it will mean if he doesn’t?

If, God forbid, your son is a victim of abuse in Scouts will you be able to tell him you had no idea this was a problem? Will you tell him it was because planning a camping trip was too much of a hassle?

You know Scouts include LGBTQ members right?

DP here.
We have several LGBTQ members in our troop, parents and children. I can think of 7, but there are probably more that I don’t even know about. Fine by me. The more, the merrier. That’s what’s missing from this thread: an understanding that there are many welcoming troops.

I think everyone knows that there are welcoming troops. People object to the idea that access is based on whether your troop happens to be a welcoming one. An organization has to take responsibility for everything it allows, so BSA allowing troops to ban LGBTQ kids means BSA is a discriminatory organization. They’re allowed to say “hey, our values are inclusion so if you want to be BSA you have to be inclusive” but they’d rather just allow LGBTQ kids to be excluded.

I don’t see it that way at all. Your average parent who wants to provide inclusive programming is already doing good work. They are giving time and energy to providing a strong scouting experience to kids willing and able to come. (Remember: you don’t have to join your nearest troop. We didn’t, because the nearest troop excludes girls.) I do not hold these parents responsible for BSA’s policies. They are working from within to offer great programming for all, and maybe one day they can help change policies organization-wide.

If we hold these well-meaning parents accountable for the policies they CAN’T control, then we won’t get anywhere. Sometimes change starts small.

Is pointing out that the parents are volunteering their time and energy with an organization that allows discrimination “holding them accountable”? I mean parents do know that BSA allows discrimination, that’s not a secret.

I also don’t see the change you think the parents are making. If the kids show up and the funds get raised and no one challenges the policies because they CAN’T, then when is this some day? Like ten years from now, do you think BSA will require troops to be inclusive? I don’t see it. And the reason is, people are still willing to show up for them while they discriminate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is in 5th grade and we've done scouts since he was in K. I am in it for the outdoor experience and the life skills. He and his den planned the majority of our camping trip last weekend - food, making fires, cooking over the fires, coming up with a campfire skit they all agreed on, emceeing the evening program for the younger scouts, cleaning up the camp site. It was amazing. It's been a really, really great experience for him.

As a practicing Quaker with many LGBTQ friends and family, do I love the historical baggage and the "hero"/military aspect? No. No I do not. I REALLY wish there were a strong outdoor school or program in the DC area, like Living Earth in Charlottesville. Honestly, I don't understand why there isn't. But there isn't, and so we are stuck with the scouts.

Has your son ever asked how you reconcile your support for your “many LGBTQ friends and family” with your support for an organization that allows them to be excluded? Do you have plans for how you will answer when he does? Have you thought about what it will mean if he doesn’t?

If, God forbid, your son is a victim of abuse in Scouts will you be able to tell him you had no idea this was a problem? Will you tell him it was because planning a camping trip was too much of a hassle?

You know Scouts include LGBTQ members right?

DP here.
We have several LGBTQ members in our troop, parents and children. I can think of 7, but there are probably more that I don’t even know about. Fine by me. The more, the merrier. That’s what’s missing from this thread: an understanding that there are many welcoming troops.

I think everyone knows that there are welcoming troops. People object to the idea that access is based on whether your troop happens to be a welcoming one. An organization has to take responsibility for everything it allows, so BSA allowing troops to ban LGBTQ kids means BSA is a discriminatory organization. They’re allowed to say “hey, our values are inclusion so if you want to be BSA you have to be inclusive” but they’d rather just allow LGBTQ kids to be excluded.

I don’t see it that way at all. Your average parent who wants to provide inclusive programming is already doing good work. They are giving time and energy to providing a strong scouting experience to kids willing and able to come. (Remember: you don’t have to join your nearest troop. We didn’t, because the nearest troop excludes girls.) I do not hold these parents responsible for BSA’s policies. They are working from within to offer great programming for all, and maybe one day they can help change policies organization-wide.

If we hold these well-meaning parents accountable for the policies they CAN’T control, then we won’t get anywhere. Sometimes change starts small.

Is pointing out that the parents are volunteering their time and energy with an organization that allows discrimination “holding them accountable”? I mean parents do know that BSA allows discrimination, that’s not a secret.

I also don’t see the change you think the parents are making. If the kids show up and the funds get raised and no one challenges the policies because they CAN’T, then when is this some day? Like ten years from now, do you think BSA will require troops to be inclusive? I don’t see it. And the reason is, people are still willing to show up for them while they discriminate.

In 2015, the executive committee unanimously voted to end the ban on LGBTQ adult leaders. In 2019, they changed membership to include girls. Change is happening, and it is happening because of the demands of the organizations members. The closest troop near us has lost well over half its membership because people do not find it welcoming, so it’ll likely close. Our troop? We’ve grown over 4 times our original size. Do I think that there will be even more changes in ten years? Yes, because people are demanding it.

This is how change happens. It doesn’t happen simply by judging from the outside.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is in 5th grade and we've done scouts since he was in K. I am in it for the outdoor experience and the life skills. He and his den planned the majority of our camping trip last weekend - food, making fires, cooking over the fires, coming up with a campfire skit they all agreed on, emceeing the evening program for the younger scouts, cleaning up the camp site. It was amazing. It's been a really, really great experience for him.

As a practicing Quaker with many LGBTQ friends and family, do I love the historical baggage and the "hero"/military aspect? No. No I do not. I REALLY wish there were a strong outdoor school or program in the DC area, like Living Earth in Charlottesville. Honestly, I don't understand why there isn't. But there isn't, and so we are stuck with the scouts.

Has your son ever asked how you reconcile your support for your “many LGBTQ friends and family” with your support for an organization that allows them to be excluded? Do you have plans for how you will answer when he does? Have you thought about what it will mean if he doesn’t?

If, God forbid, your son is a victim of abuse in Scouts will you be able to tell him you had no idea this was a problem? Will you tell him it was because planning a camping trip was too much of a hassle?

You know Scouts include LGBTQ members right?

DP here.
We have several LGBTQ members in our troop, parents and children. I can think of 7, but there are probably more that I don’t even know about. Fine by me. The more, the merrier. That’s what’s missing from this thread: an understanding that there are many welcoming troops.

I think everyone knows that there are welcoming troops. People object to the idea that access is based on whether your troop happens to be a welcoming one. An organization has to take responsibility for everything it allows, so BSA allowing troops to ban LGBTQ kids means BSA is a discriminatory organization. They’re allowed to say “hey, our values are inclusion so if you want to be BSA you have to be inclusive” but they’d rather just allow LGBTQ kids to be excluded.

I don’t see it that way at all. Your average parent who wants to provide inclusive programming is already doing good work. They are giving time and energy to providing a strong scouting experience to kids willing and able to come. (Remember: you don’t have to join your nearest troop. We didn’t, because the nearest troop excludes girls.) I do not hold these parents responsible for BSA’s policies. They are working from within to offer great programming for all, and maybe one day they can help change policies organization-wide.

If we hold these well-meaning parents accountable for the policies they CAN’T control, then we won’t get anywhere. Sometimes change starts small.

Is pointing out that the parents are volunteering their time and energy with an organization that allows discrimination “holding them accountable”? I mean parents do know that BSA allows discrimination, that’s not a secret.

I also don’t see the change you think the parents are making. If the kids show up and the funds get raised and no one challenges the policies because they CAN’T, then when is this some day? Like ten years from now, do you think BSA will require troops to be inclusive? I don’t see it. And the reason is, people are still willing to show up for them while they discriminate.

In 2015, the executive committee unanimously voted to end the ban on LGBTQ adult leaders. In 2019, they changed membership to include girls. Change is happening, and it is happening because of the demands of the organizations members. The closest troop near us has lost well over half its membership because people do not find it welcoming, so it’ll likely close. Our troop? We’ve grown over 4 times our original size. Do I think that there will be even more changes in ten years? Yes, because people are demanding it.

This is how change happens. It doesn’t happen simply by judging from the outside.

The decisions to allow girls followed the exodus of parents from scouting, caused by the child abuse coverup. Which means yes— parents do have influence in the organization if they’re willing to leave it.

The decision to stop banning LGBT staff was caused by externals as well, since the people already in scouts were clearly tolerating the homophobia.

I think you’re right that the only meaningful change BSA will see will be internal— if parents and scouts (particularly the older scouts) start questioning the treatment of the 82,000 boys who were abused and then continue to be victims of the BSA. I wouldn’t join an organization that behaves that way just to “change it from within” which is, ironically, how people justified working for Trump. But I have faith that some of the scouts will ask the pointed questions of their leadership— and their parents— going forward. Unfortunately I think it’s going to come after more children are abused.

[Anonymous]

Our pack and den are amazing. My son’s favorite activity, and his one place aside from at home and with family where he’s totally in his element. They hike, camp, learn skills, run and play, build derby cars, have a bake-off, go zip lining and snow tubing, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our pack and den are amazing. My son’s favorite activity, and his one place aside from at home and with family where he’s totally in his element. They hike, camp, learn skills, run and play, build derby cars, have a bake-off, go zip lining and snow tubing, etc.

Oh and a parent attend everything, which I’m sure turns off some, but it ensures safety for the boys and is a great bonding experience for our son and whichever parent attends any given event with him.