Anonymous wrote:People are way too outraged by what other people do in the privacy of their home. Yet are often not outraged by stuff that really matters outside of the home.
Because what happens inside the home can create monsters who do outrageous things outside the home.
But there are plenty of other things that create monsters. I don’t spank but I reject this idea that every child that is spanked turns into a monster. The same can be said for people who came out of other not so great situations. It’s not a one size fits all to me. Every kid that gets spanked, sees someone die, gets verbally abused, loses their mom/dad, is exposed to drugs or whatever the case may be does not always turn into some monster. We have got to stop projecting things on people. My own aunt was never spanked and would be considered a failure in ever sense of the word. Stuff happens and life happens. I have friends that spank and I think their kids are fine. I can have my opinion and not make comments insinuating that they are horrible. In my own opinion I feel people that don’t have religion and spirituality are a disgrace but I’m not going to project that their kid is bad or will be horrible.
I was spanked. I am not a monster. Spanking is still wrong.
I have a crappy relationship with my parents, in part due to them hitting me. I had to work hard to develop impulse control and emotional management as an adult because as a kid, my parents didn't teach it to me -- they just hit me.
Hitting people is wrong, you should not hit people. As an adult, I sometimes feel a strong desire to hit other people. Where does that come from? From being hit as a child. I have worked hard to learn to control that urge. I have to, unless I want to wind up arrested or socially ostracized. Why have I had to learn to control that urge with people, but if a parent feels the urge to hit their child, it's okay? That makes no sense.
Either hitting people is wrong or it isn't. If you really think that spanking children is fine, then I should be allowed to hit you because I think you're wrong, shouldn't I? Or are you only allowed to hit your property? I mean your kids, obviously, your kids -- we don't think of children as property anymore... do we?
I was spanked and I haven’t hit anyone. I have a great relationship with my parents. What does that say about me? Punching someone and tapping a 3 year old on the hand is seriously not the same.
Anonymous wrote:
Is it possible that your brother was an "a*hole" because of how he was treated? I'm not just talking about "spankings". I think whichever parent abused your brother had no patience or tender feeling for him and took any opportunity to hurt him and justify it by labelling him as a bad kid. My parents were each abusive in their own ways and I observed at the time that my dad was roughest on my eldest brother and my mom was harshest on me. You seem hesitant to accuse your parents of abuse, by where do you suppose your rage comes from? I know I was affected not only by being beaten, but from witnessing my siblings being abused, as well. Please consider working on your rage feelings toward your kids. I promise they do nothing to deserve it.
I know why I was an a**hole and got punished harder as a kid - it's because my sister was the Golden Child who could do no wrong and I was the Scapegoat who could do no right. I always felt that my parents were teamed up with my sister and against me, which made me resent my sister and be an a**hole to her, which led to me getting punished, which increased my resentment, and so on.
I'm sorry that happened to you. Children aren't born aholes, they act that way for a reason. My eldest sister was the golden child and never got beaten. There was a time I was with her and couldn't have done something which enraged my dad. I was whipped with a belt and she didn't tell him I was innocent. My skinned swelled so much, it split and I bled. I was 9. I have never and will never spank or otherwise assault my kids. I don't view them as anything other than children, who are to be treated gently and with love. I hope you treat your kids gently, too.
I'm a different poster. I think it's fine to do what you want, but some kids are born aholes. Like why are some kids doing super disrespectful things?
Many people consider certain developmentally normal behavior from kids as "super disrespectful" because of their own issues. Like sometimes kids will break rules or do things they know will annoy their parents, on purpose, just to see what will happen. This isn't "disrespectful" unless you define respect as a child who always does exactly what they've been told, 100% of the time. That's not developmentally appropriate for children and childhood and adolescence are largely about using trial and error to learn about the world in a relatively safe environment. Kids who do stuff like this are not a*holes, they are just kids. And when they do it, it's a terrific opportunity to provide them with natural consequences for risky, rude, or inappropriate behavior, and to talk to them about why that behavior will cause problems down the road. All of which you can do without hitting them. This is literally what parenting is.
But if you just hit or ignore kids in this stage instead of, you know, parenting and teaching them, then they will keep engaging in sometimes escalating bad behavior. Maybe they become nihilists who figure "I can't do right so I might as well enjoy doing wrong," maybe they are testing the absolute limit of your relationship with them to see what will push you to throw them out or say you hate them (because at least then they'll know instead of living in fear of that moment), maybe they are just so freaking confused about what it even means to make good choices because they see their parents consistently raging and hitting in a way that is deemed fine and justified within their family, but when they do the same they are punished.
No kid is a born a*hole. I know that's hard to hear, but kids get that way through experience.
I get what you are saying. But let's fast forward to the older years when kids aren't getting spanked....why are kids being nasty to one another, hurting one another, manipulating, doing drugs, constantly lying. Many of them have not been spanked. A lot of this is considered common for older kids but many parents have laid the foundation when they are young. I'm not saying spanking is the answer but the cop out answer of "Oh something is wrong" or "They are just kids" just doesn't do it for me. I don't believe people are always as "good" as some of you are trying to make it seem. I'm not perfect. But I've been around kids when I myself was in middle school, high school, college etc. and some of the things kids do is really not okay. I myself have lied and cheated yet I was not taught to do that. Whether you spank or don't spank I just don't think that makes a child "good". The "just kids" reminds me of all the people that justify bad behavior in later years. You know the boys that rape girls in college at some frat party...."oh they are just kids". I hate this statement.
If you don't think spankign is the answer than why bring this up here? But to answer your question --
I don't think kids are innately good. I think human beings are animals, and I mean that in the neutral sense. We are animal creatures with animal needs (food, shelter, security, companionship) and that like animals we will use the tools at our disposal to obtain these things. If violence and nastiness works to get them, that's what we'll do. We are programmed to get our needs met so that we can survive.
The thing about society and civilization is that it recognizes that if we engage in anarchy, where there are no rules and people can just use force to get their needs met, it's miserable for a lot of people. It's brutal, and results in people who are not as physically strong just not surviving. We've constructed a society in which we have things other than mere survival that we want to protect and contribute to. And to do that, we have had to tame the animal instincts to uses violence and other forms of cruelty (social exclusion, abandonment, etc.) to get needs met. In creating society, we're saying "okay, we're better of working together."
I think kids become jerks for the same reason anyone becomes a jerk. Look around. There are nasty, violent, manipulative, cruel people everywhere. They've decided it's more worthwhile to engage in that behavior, violating what some of us believe is a moral contract, because it gets them what they need. Plenty of kids see that behavior (and not just in the news or online or on TV, but often in their own homes from their own family) and they do it too.
Children are not inherently good or bad. They are always a reflection of society. If you see a lot of angry, manipulative, cruel teenagers around, I suggest you cast your gaze upon the rest of your community. The adults might be better at dressing this behavior up as civilized, but it's still what it always is -- anti-social, animal, cruelty. It doesn't well up inside a child from nowhere. They learn that it will serve them. We have to teach them that it won't. It's hard. But that's what it is to be a parent in 2022.
I brought it up because you answered what I was getting at. Way too many people on here have this idea that kids are a complete product of how you parents. This is somewhat true but like you said society really plays a huge part and of course other things. I don’t believe in shaming people for doing what they think is best. I don’t spank but I seriously do not think spanking your child a couple of times results in many of the outrageous and degrading behavior we see today. That’s all I’m getting at. Kids are people and sometimes people do bad things even if they had all the gentle and loving parenting. I say this because I’m not going to get myself down if I’ve done all that I possibly can and they do something outrageous.
The flaw in your argument is that by saying "spanking your child a couple of times" open a door to all kinds of abusive behavior.
If you asked my parents if they hit us, they would say "no, we spanked you." If you asked if it was just a couple times or a lot, they'd say "it didn't seem like a lot, we only did it when we felt like we had to."
I was terrified of my dad when I was a kid. He "spanked" us with his belt. I saw my mom slap my 16 year old sister across the face. They hit us in anger and rage, it was far more than a couple times, it was not controlled, it was not an effective or measured form of discipline. I have PTSD from that experience. I consider it abusive, as do most people I have told about it.
But my parents felt it fell within the category of "spanking" that people on this thread are defending. People will say "oh I'm just talking about a swat on the bottom." In the moment, you cannot control how hard or in what state of mind a parent hits their child. Saying it's okay because you are envisioning a very occasional and not-very-hard swat opens the door to people to abuse their kids. The reason I say that spanking is never okay and that no one should do it is that there is no other way to prevent people from doing what my parents did. Many, many abusive parents will minimize their abuse as "just spanking." Why give them that weapon? Why come up with this narrow category of socially sanctioned hitting of children when you could just... not? Why not just say "don't hit your kids, it's never okay" to prevent people from feeling justified in hitting their kids in a way that goes beyond what you seem to think is an acceptable level of spanking?
By the way, I feel confident that if spanking had been 100% considered not okay when I was a kid, my parents would not have done it, or it really would have only happened a couple times. My parents have lots of issues but they are extremely motivated by what is considered "correct". They were raised in strict, rule-following households and if the rule was "don't hit your kids", they would have worked really hard not to. Even if they'd slipped up, it would have spared us a lot of trauma. Don't you think that's worth it? I do.
Anonymous wrote:I thinking taking away privileges and time out are fine. But I don't think those things signal extreme disobedience. What some of the other posters are bringing up about deliberate disobedience is interesting. I'd be curious to know what people do for extreme offenses because I don't find the same old punishments to work. A lot of you are sharing good disciplines but those are all good for the everyday run of the mill disobediences. If your 7 year old lies repeatedly or destroys something sure timeout or taking away something. But if you aren't spanking how are you making it extremely clear that this behavior is NOT ok? I'm a teacher and I don't think parents discipline their kids nearly enough because they often are disrespectful.
But here is thing -- are most episodes of spanking done with reasoned thinking by the parents? In my house, it certainly was not. I was spanked when my father raged and lost control. So what happens is that you are trying to get your child's behavior and emotional state in control by random acts of violence when their adult is out of control.
Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how we now make up what abuse is.
Says the child beating ahole.
I mean I don’t do that. But tapping a child on the bottom is not abuse.
Tapping a child on the bottom or slapping the hand is not spanking or beating.
So if your husband did that to you, it would be ok, right?
I have never been in that situation. My point is that the poster above is talking about a very different situation than the anger and rage-induced beatings that OP (and many of us have faced). I don't know that it has a place in this conversation actually; I find it's a red herring and distracting.
Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how we now make up what abuse is.
Says the child beating ahole.
I mean I don’t do that. But tapping a child on the bottom is not abuse.
Tapping a child on the bottom or slapping the hand is not spanking or beating.
So if your husband did that to you, it would be ok, right?
I mean, if it was his duty to discipline me then I suppose it might be.
The government has the power and duty to imprison car hijackers, but their spouses don’t.
Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how we now make up what abuse is.
Says the child beating ahole.
I mean I don’t do that. But tapping a child on the bottom is not abuse.
Tapping a child on the bottom or slapping the hand is not spanking or beating.
So if your husband did that to you, it would be ok, right?
I mean, if it was his duty to discipline me then I suppose it might be.
The government has the power and duty to imprison car hijackers, but their spouses don’t.
Anonymous wrote:I was spanked for silly things by my mom and my grandmother (she partly raised me). I grew up hating both of them.
With my kids I usually start with lectures, then time outs, then take away something, and if all fails then I do a one spanking. I don't go from zero to spanking.
I think at home our kids know by now how the "process" goes so they don't push my buttons all the way....
It's a good way for me too to not lose it all at once. But, yes, it takes a lot of patience.
On occasions if they have a horrible tantrum they get a cold shower to cool things down too.
Are you crazy? You are an abuser. I’m appalled you don’t see that and talk so casually about it. You are terrible. Pray for your children, they will hate you too.
I come from a different culture where disciplining your kids is normal. We're beyond the "spanking age", my kids are now teenagers, one going to college soon, and the only thing I do is lecture them or take away their electronics.
They are amazing kids too. Well educated and well mannered. They exceed in sports and at school on their own. Not worried here!
The idea is to discipline your kids without the "rage" mentioned by other posters...
Forcing someone into a cold shower is torture. Especially a child.
I cannot understand what my parents were thinking when I was growing up. I saw a lot of physical abuse. Just watching it was terrifying. Why would someone put their child through that? Now I have my own and I simply will now do that. I will not dominate my kids through terror.
Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how we now make up what abuse is.
Says the child beating ahole.
I mean I don’t do that. But tapping a child on the bottom is not abuse.
Tapping a child on the bottom or slapping the hand is not spanking or beating.
So if your husband did that to you, it would be ok, right?
I mean, if it was his duty to discipline me then I suppose it might be.
The government has the power and duty to imprison car hijackers, but their spouses don’t.
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}