Will Manchin and Sinema crack?

[Anonymous]

Yep and Manchin basically said the reality. He said he isn't a liberal and that if the rest of his party wants to some items in the bill, they will need to get more liberals elected. GAME ON. He is taking on the hard left and it will be interesting to see who wins. I think Manchin is likely to win. He is offering moderate democrats a person to rally behind and I think some will take it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so over these two. Is this what they really want as their legacy- torpedoing Biden’s agenda and the chance to actually DO something?

Dunno. It could ensure their political survival given how unpopular Biden and the Democrats are right now. Approvals are sinking fast.

..+1

Not only that - they could be the saviors for other moderate Dems who know that a vote for this monstrosity means defeat for them.

Sinema is safe. The Arizona Dems don't have anyone who can challenge a sitting Senator and win and the Republican voters like her moxy.

Same with Manchin - he's not in danger of losing his seat. If he's challenged, a Republican will take it as simple as that.

They're both speaking up for Democrats who cannot say this and keep their seats - these payouts and extensive progressive wish list is too much all at once.

It should have been - expanded TANF, expanded ACA, stronger physical Infrastructure with high-speed networks, heavy on climate change, and some pre-K expansion.

This unicorn fairy of a $3.5 Trillion bill is worse than useless - its coming at the exact wrong time and contributing to the highest inflation we've seen in decades.

Manchin is safe, you are correct. Sinema though is not. Her approval among Dems and Independents is way under water. Her main support right now is from Republicans that wont vote for her anyway.

Expand TANF? Now that's a unicorn fairy. Community College and child care is a much better idea. The rest is what's in it (the immigration stuff was never getting past the parliamentarian).

Childcare doesn't exist, TANF does. Much easier for Congress to get away with expansions at every step. And no the rest is not what's in it. It's a $3.5 Trillion bloated welfare bill with only $900 billion set aside to directly combat climate change and energy. Then there's a seperate $900 billion bill specifically for infrastructure.

The Dems put everything in like a bunch of kids hiding under a skirt and they're surprised no one wants to pay for an extra $2 Trillion?

As for Sinema, I believe she's setting herself up to win regardless of party just like John McCain did when he won 60% of the Arizona vote. If she can get the same selection of moderate Dems and fiscal Conservatives on her side - she'll win.

That's clearly what she's trying to do. But, it's not working. She can't pull a McCain when she doesnt have any core principles. She's toast right now.

Ouch. Seems you were wrong.

Could Sinema have calculated that she’ll gain more support in AZ if she’s kicked out of the Democratic Party than if she stays in? And that either way she’ll gain support if the infrastructure bill is tanked by progressive Dems? If so, should Dems negotiate with her as if she really only cares about the infrastructure bill to which she’s attached, but that she’d show some support for a much reduced human infrastructure bill, thus forcing progressives to prioritize their preferences? Is that just too bitter a pill to swallow for progressives and, if so, is the only winner here Sinema?

Maybe she's not "calculating" anything about winning. Maybe she's acting according to her conscience and common sense . . . Imagine something as courageous and unusual as that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so over these two. Is this what they really want as their legacy- torpedoing Biden’s agenda and the chance to actually DO something?

Dunno. It could ensure their political survival given how unpopular Biden and the Democrats are right now. Approvals are sinking fast.

..+1

Not only that - they could be the saviors for other moderate Dems who know that a vote for this monstrosity means defeat for them.

Sinema is safe. The Arizona Dems don't have anyone who can challenge a sitting Senator and win and the Republican voters like her moxy.

Same with Manchin - he's not in danger of losing his seat. If he's challenged, a Republican will take it as simple as that.

They're both speaking up for Democrats who cannot say this and keep their seats - these payouts and extensive progressive wish list is too much all at once.

It should have been - expanded TANF, expanded ACA, stronger physical Infrastructure with high-speed networks, heavy on climate change, and some pre-K expansion.

This unicorn fairy of a $3.5 Trillion bill is worse than useless - its coming at the exact wrong time and contributing to the highest inflation we've seen in decades.

Manchin is safe, you are correct. Sinema though is not. Her approval among Dems and Independents is way under water. Her main support right now is from Republicans that wont vote for her anyway.

Expand TANF? Now that's a unicorn fairy. Community College and child care is a much better idea. The rest is what's in it (the immigration stuff was never getting past the parliamentarian).

Childcare doesn't exist, TANF does. Much easier for Congress to get away with expansions at every step. And no the rest is not what's in it. It's a $3.5 Trillion bloated welfare bill with only $900 billion set aside to directly combat climate change and energy. Then there's a seperate $900 billion bill specifically for infrastructure.

The Dems put everything in like a bunch of kids hiding under a skirt and they're surprised no one wants to pay for an extra $2 Trillion?

As for Sinema, I believe she's setting herself up to win regardless of party just like John McCain did when he won 60% of the Arizona vote. If she can get the same selection of moderate Dems and fiscal Conservatives on her side - she'll win.

That's clearly what she's trying to do. But, it's not working. She can't pull a McCain when she doesnt have any core principles. She's toast right now.

Ouch. Seems you were wrong.

Could Sinema have calculated that she’ll gain more support in AZ if she’s kicked out of the Democratic Party than if she stays in? And that either way she’ll gain support if the infrastructure bill is tanked by progressive Dems? If so, should Dems negotiate with her as if she really only cares about the infrastructure bill to which she’s attached, but that she’d show some support for a much reduced human infrastructure bill, thus forcing progressives to prioritize their preferences? Is that just too bitter a pill to swallow for progressives and, if so, is the only winner here Sinema?

Maybe she's not "calculating" anything about winning. Maybe she's acting according to her conscience and common sense . . . Imagine something as courageous and unusual as that!

She’s incredibly inconsistent and her behavior now reflects the opposite of what she campaigned on, but, sure, Jan?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so over these two. Is this what they really want as their legacy- torpedoing Biden’s agenda and the chance to actually DO something?

Dunno. It could ensure their political survival given how unpopular Biden and the Democrats are right now. Approvals are sinking fast.

..+1

Not only that - they could be the saviors for other moderate Dems who know that a vote for this monstrosity means defeat for them.

Sinema is safe. The Arizona Dems don't have anyone who can challenge a sitting Senator and win and the Republican voters like her moxy.

Same with Manchin - he's not in danger of losing his seat. If he's challenged, a Republican will take it as simple as that.

They're both speaking up for Democrats who cannot say this and keep their seats - these payouts and extensive progressive wish list is too much all at once.

It should have been - expanded TANF, expanded ACA, stronger physical Infrastructure with high-speed networks, heavy on climate change, and some pre-K expansion.

This unicorn fairy of a $3.5 Trillion bill is worse than useless - its coming at the exact wrong time and contributing to the highest inflation we've seen in decades.

Manchin is safe, you are correct. Sinema though is not. Her approval among Dems and Independents is way under water. Her main support right now is from Republicans that wont vote for her anyway.

Expand TANF? Now that's a unicorn fairy. Community College and child care is a much better idea. The rest is what's in it (the immigration stuff was never getting past the parliamentarian).

Childcare doesn't exist, TANF does. Much easier for Congress to get away with expansions at every step. And no the rest is not what's in it. It's a $3.5 Trillion bloated welfare bill with only $900 billion set aside to directly combat climate change and energy. Then there's a seperate $900 billion bill specifically for infrastructure.

The Dems put everything in like a bunch of kids hiding under a skirt and they're surprised no one wants to pay for an extra $2 Trillion?

As for Sinema, I believe she's setting herself up to win regardless of party just like John McCain did when he won 60% of the Arizona vote. If she can get the same selection of moderate Dems and fiscal Conservatives on her side - she'll win.

That's clearly what she's trying to do. But, it's not working. She can't pull a McCain when she doesnt have any core principles. She's toast right now.

Ouch. Seems you were wrong.

Could Sinema have calculated that she’ll gain more support in AZ if she’s kicked out of the Democratic Party than if she stays in? And that either way she’ll gain support if the infrastructure bill is tanked by progressive Dems? If so, should Dems negotiate with her as if she really only cares about the infrastructure bill to which she’s attached, but that she’d show some support for a much reduced human infrastructure bill, thus forcing progressives to prioritize their preferences? Is that just too bitter a pill to swallow for progressives and, if so, is the only winner here Sinema?

Maybe she's not "calculating" anything about winning. Maybe she's acting according to her conscience and common sense . . . Imagine something as courageous and unusual as that!

LOL her conscience is the check big phar writes her. That’s it. 500k so far….maybe she can get to a million and a new house & a corporate board??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yep and Manchin basically said the reality. He said he isn't a liberal and that if the rest of his party wants to some items in the bill, they will need to get more liberals elected. GAME ON. He is taking on the hard left and it will be interesting to see who wins. I think Manchin is likely to win. He is offering moderate democrats a person to rally behind and I think some will take it.

He’s not a person anyone will rally behind. He can’t even articulate what it is that he wants or believes. He’s an unremarkable backbencher who thinks simple contrarianism is admirable. The sad thing is that he almost certainly wants it all to pass because West Virginia needs it, but he doesn’t have the courage to vote for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep and Manchin basically said the reality. He said he isn't a liberal and that if the rest of his party wants to some items in the bill, they will need to get more liberals elected. GAME ON. He is taking on the hard left and it will be interesting to see who wins. I think Manchin is likely to win. He is offering moderate democrats a person to rally behind and I think some will take it.

He’s not a person anyone will rally behind. He can’t even articulate what it is that he wants or believes. He’s an unremarkable backbencher who thinks simple contrarianism is admirable. The sad thing is that he almost certainly wants it all to pass because West Virginia needs it, but he doesn’t have the courage to vote for it.

You clearly did not listen to him today. He named specific items he wants and talked about his objections to it. Most damning, however, was that he told the rest of the Democratic Party his views in July. Why on earth should he be pushed around when he gave them lots of room do maneuver. Why would they ignore him when they need his vote. Absolutely foolish. He seems rationale. He spoke nicely about Biden. He didn't throw anyone under the bus but he said no one should expect him to vote for this based on his record. He is correct. And he didn't criticize the far left but said they need to get more seats in the senate if they want far left things. He is the only moderate Senator that is NOT a sellout (except for Sinema but I think she may cave).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep and Manchin basically said the reality. He said he isn't a liberal and that if the rest of his party wants to some items in the bill, they will need to get more liberals elected. GAME ON. He is taking on the hard left and it will be interesting to see who wins. I think Manchin is likely to win. He is offering moderate democrats a person to rally behind and I think some will take it.

He’s not a person anyone will rally behind. He can’t even articulate what it is that he wants or believes. He’s an unremarkable backbencher who thinks simple contrarianism is admirable. The sad thing is that he almost certainly wants it all to pass because West Virginia needs it, but he doesn’t have the courage to vote for it.

You clearly did not listen to him today. He named specific items he wants and talked about his objections to it. Most damning, however, was that he told the rest of the Democratic Party his views in July. Why on earth should he be pushed around when he gave them lots of room do maneuver. Why would they ignore him when they need his vote. Absolutely foolish. He seems rationale. He spoke nicely about Biden. He didn't throw anyone under the bus but he said no one should expect him to vote for this based on his record. He is correct. And he didn't criticize the far left but said they need to get more seats in the senate if they want far left things. He is the only moderate Senator that is NOT a sellout (except for Sinema but I think she may cave).

He is not a moderate he is a trumpist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep and Manchin basically said the reality. He said he isn't a liberal and that if the rest of his party wants to some items in the bill, they will need to get more liberals elected. GAME ON. He is taking on the hard left and it will be interesting to see who wins. I think Manchin is likely to win. He is offering moderate democrats a person to rally behind and I think some will take it.

He’s not a person anyone will rally behind. He can’t even articulate what it is that he wants or believes. He’s an unremarkable backbencher who thinks simple contrarianism is admirable. The sad thing is that he almost certainly wants it all to pass because West Virginia needs it, but he doesn’t have the courage to vote for it.

You clearly did not listen to him today. He named specific items he wants and talked about his objections to it. Most damning, however, was that he told the rest of the Democratic Party his views in July. Why on earth should he be pushed around when he gave them lots of room do maneuver. Why would they ignore him when they need his vote. Absolutely foolish. He seems rationale. He spoke nicely about Biden. He didn't throw anyone under the bus but he said no one should expect him to vote for this based on his record. He is correct. And he didn't criticize the far left but said they need to get more seats in the senate if they want far left things. He is the only moderate Senator that is NOT a sellout (except for Sinema but I think she may cave).

He is not a moderate he is a trumpist.

I think democrats are really going to regret screeching TRUMPIST at anyone who disagrees with them about anything. This is a big country with a lot of different opinions. I despise Trump, but I despise the democrats, too. I am relieved that Manchin seems to have some common sense!

[Anonymous]

Manchin just cracked. He’s now set the stage to negotiate a deal on reconciliation. It will definitely come down a lot. I predict it lands somewhere between $2T-$2.5T. A lot of the climate stuff will get chucked or watered down. Both the BIF and reconciliation will pass by the end of October.

[Anonymous]

Now we have the numbers. Pass both bills and get it done Dems.

Though Manchin mandating that the Fed "ends quantitative easing" is laughable. Neither the POTUS nor Congress directly have control over that. Such a bizarro demand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep and Manchin basically said the reality. He said he isn't a liberal and that if the rest of his party wants to some items in the bill, they will need to get more liberals elected. GAME ON. He is taking on the hard left and it will be interesting to see who wins. I think Manchin is likely to win. He is offering moderate democrats a person to rally behind and I think some will take it.

He’s not a person anyone will rally behind. He can’t even articulate what it is that he wants or believes. He’s an unremarkable backbencher who thinks simple contrarianism is admirable. The sad thing is that he almost certainly wants it all to pass because West Virginia needs it, but he doesn’t have the courage to vote for it.

You clearly did not listen to him today. He named specific items he wants and talked about his objections to it. Most damning, however, was that he told the rest of the Democratic Party his views in July. Why on earth should he be pushed around when he gave them lots of room do maneuver. Why would they ignore him when they need his vote. Absolutely foolish. He seems rationale. He spoke nicely about Biden. He didn't throw anyone under the bus but he said no one should expect him to vote for this based on his record. He is correct. And he didn't criticize the far left but said they need to get more seats in the senate if they want far left things. He is the only moderate Senator that is NOT a sellout (except for Sinema but I think she may cave).

So two senators should be able to gum up the works with a bill that’s insanely popular with their own constituents? That’s “moderate” to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Manchin just cracked. He’s now set the stage to negotiate a deal on reconciliation. It will definitely come down a lot. I predict it lands somewhere between $2T-$2.5T. A lot of the climate stuff will get chucked or watered down. Both the BIF and reconciliation will pass by the end of October.

Manchin should support the climate stuff. WVA is potential powerhouse for wind energy. I predict lots of the green tech infrastructure spending stays in the bill.

They will gut the parts related to old age care programs for the Boomers. They can fend for themselves, IMHO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep and Manchin basically said the reality. He said he isn't a liberal and that if the rest of his party wants to some items in the bill, they will need to get more liberals elected. GAME ON. He is taking on the hard left and it will be interesting to see who wins. I think Manchin is likely to win. He is offering moderate democrats a person to rally behind and I think some will take it.

He’s not a person anyone will rally behind. He can’t even articulate what it is that he wants or believes. He’s an unremarkable backbencher who thinks simple contrarianism is admirable. The sad thing is that he almost certainly wants it all to pass because West Virginia needs it, but he doesn’t have the courage to vote for it.

You clearly did not listen to him today. He named specific items he wants and talked about his objections to it. Most damning, however, was that he told the rest of the Democratic Party his views in July. Why on earth should he be pushed around when he gave them lots of room do maneuver. Why would they ignore him when they need his vote. Absolutely foolish. He seems rationale. He spoke nicely about Biden. He didn't throw anyone under the bus but he said no one should expect him to vote for this based on his record. He is correct. And he didn't criticize the far left but said they need to get more seats in the senate if they want far left things. He is the only moderate Senator that is NOT a sellout (except for Sinema but I think she may cave).

So two senators should be able to gum up the works with a bill that’s insanely popular with their own constituents? That’s “moderate” to you?

What do I know - but most analysts seem to believe they weren't the only two, they were just the ones willing to be the public face of negotiating this down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Now we have the numbers. Pass both bills and get it done Dems.

Though Manchin mandating that the Fed "ends quantitative easing" is laughable. Neither the POTUS nor Congress directly have control over that. Such a bizarro demand.

He's playing to his fellow West Virginians - he has to occasionally throw in some Fox-isms to keep his cred.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep and Manchin basically said the reality. He said he isn't a liberal and that if the rest of his party wants to some items in the bill, they will need to get more liberals elected. GAME ON. He is taking on the hard left and it will be interesting to see who wins. I think Manchin is likely to win. He is offering moderate democrats a person to rally behind and I think some will take it.

He’s not a person anyone will rally behind. He can’t even articulate what it is that he wants or believes. He’s an unremarkable backbencher who thinks simple contrarianism is admirable. The sad thing is that he almost certainly wants it all to pass because West Virginia needs it, but he doesn’t have the courage to vote for it.

You clearly did not listen to him today. He named specific items he wants and talked about his objections to it. Most damning, however, was that he told the rest of the Democratic Party his views in July. Why on earth should he be pushed around when he gave them lots of room do maneuver. Why would they ignore him when they need his vote. Absolutely foolish. He seems rationale. He spoke nicely about Biden. He didn't throw anyone under the bus but he said no one should expect him to vote for this based on his record. He is correct. And he didn't criticize the far left but said they need to get more seats in the senate if they want far left things. He is the only moderate Senator that is NOT a sellout (except for Sinema but I think she may cave).

So two senators should be able to gum up the works with a bill that’s insanely popular with their own constituents? That’s “moderate” to you?

Yes the representatives of 290,510 voters in W Virginia and 1,191,100 voters in Arizona have spoken. They said no. So screw off everyone else and give us our pork.