If Jesus wasn’t a real historical figure, where did Christian theology come from?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

"pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

Nope. As Bart Ehrman pointed out, Paul knew Jesus’ brother James and his disciple Peter. As Bart says, if Jesus didn’t exist, his brother James would have said something about it.

Not all of us follow Ehrman as diligently as you do.

Not 100%.

You’re also out of step with the vast, vast scholarly consensus.

But you do you, cursing and posting dumb and irrelevant stat 101 links as you go on your silly and unhappy way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

"pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

Again, as we have discussed multiple times, you don't get to decide. The consensus among modern scholars is that Jesus is a real, historical figure. There is no doubt among these scholars that Jesus existed. Just because you don't like the evidence doesn't make it "likely." That's like saying you believe in the flat Earth because you reject the consensus that the Earth is round and all the evidence is faked.

The consensus is that it's most likely that he existed. Not 100%.

It has nothing to do with "liking" evidence or not. We just don't have reasonable level of independent verification to know 100%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

"pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

Nope. As Bart Ehrman pointed out, Paul knew Jesus’ brother James and his disciple Peter. As Bart says, if Jesus didn’t exist, his brother James would have said something about it.

Not all of us follow Ehrman as diligently as you do.

Not 100%.

You’re also out of step with the vast, vast scholarly consensus.

But you do you, cursing and posting dumb and irrelevant stat 101 links as you go on your silly and unhappy way.

I didn't curse.

I did post definitions & videos because someone asked for a citation.

Not all of us blindly believe everything that Ehrman says.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

Bumping because pp with a page of irrelevant basic stats links is obviously trolling really hard to get away from it.

One of the best arguments for Jesus’ existence—from a leading atheist.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Muhammad’s historicity is similarly debated. The Quran was written down 20 years after his death (echos of Paul). The Hadith were written 2-3 hundred years later. There’s no record the Muslim conquerors across North Africa mentioned Mohammed or Islam, nor did their conquered subjects, until about 80 years in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad

https://compassthroughchaos.medium.com/muhammad-is-as-real-as-the-lord-of-the-rings-5322b0bbe1

Yup. Just like Jesus, he “most likely” but we don’t have definitive evidence.

Who decides if evidence is "definitive?"

There is evidence (fact). Whether anyone is persuaded by that evidence is up to each individual.

We all have to decide for ourselves. For me "definitive" means direct evidence, and there isn't any. But OTH, circumstantial evidence, of which there is a lot, can be very persuasive.

You can be a Jesus truther and deny him, and join the flat earthers, climate change deniers, holocaust deniers, etc. Not great company to be in.

I was just commenting on the nature of the evidence. It's not strong, but I'm not a denier either.

Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure, and attempts to deny his historicity have been consistently rejected by the scholarly consensus as a fringe theory.

So those who deny Christ was a historical figure know more than every scholar in the Western world?

It’s really arrogant to think you know more than the academics and scholars who overwhelmingly agree Christ was a historical figure. They accept the evidence; why don’t you?

DP here. It is exceptionally distasteful for you to create a strawman and accuse PP of denial when their last sentence is literally "but I'm not a denier either"

That's flat out dishonest.

If you refuse to accept the nuance of PP's point, that's your issue entirely.

Nuance shuance. Jesus Christ existed, and the scholars and academics accept the evidence. pp repeating repeatedly “the evidence isn’t very good!” is distasteful. The evidence is fine for the scholars and academics. If it’s not good enough for some fringe rando, they can complain daily/monthly/yearly that they don’t accept it…but that doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. If you personally don’t accept the evidence, you are a fringe loony. Case closed. We all agree, right? Yes, of course we do. It’s settled. Christ was a real man who walked the earth. We all agree. Thread over.

OK fine. And there is no evidence of his divinity.

Thread REALLY over.

This thread was never about that; it was about his historical being.

Nope. If people didn't believe he was divine, there would be no thread at all.

No evidence of his divinity.

You lost the debate and had to admit Christ was a real man who walked the earth and his story is in the Bible. Each person can have an opinion on his divinity; on his historical being, they cannot. Create another thread for that.

Lies. Wrong. And a dose of stupid as a bonus.

Never claimed the man named Jesus didn't exist, so didn't lose any debate.

Fully accept scholarship that he likely did exist.

Fully understand there is ZERO EVIDENCE OF HIS DIVINITY, and that no one would care about the former question if you accept the latter.

+1

The man likely existed.

His divinity isn't based on evidence - just "faith" in the supernatural.

Then the question posed in the thread title is moot.

Only if we had 100% certainty that he existed. Actual evidence.

^^^ To the couple of trolls still claiming “but nobody on this thread ever said he didn’t exist,” here you go. Prima facie.

Wow you are entirely unable to comprehend a sentence. I can't believe you are that dense, so I can only assume you are trolling trying to get a reaction. Mission accomplished.

Wow, you’re abusive. And it’s also tragic that you don’t understand that using the subjunctive (“if only we had… then”) means uncertainty. Whether you know what the subjunctive is or not, and I suspect you don’t.

No I understand perfectly. So do you but you prefer to say things you really don’t believe in order to support things you do believe. Likely and not 100% certain or not mutually exclusive in anyway. In fact all of the percentages between 51% and 99% qualify as both. Like I said you do understand all of this you just prefer to deny it. It’s probably fine for you but we see right through it.

Translation: I have no idea what the he!! the subjunctive is so I'm going to pretend that never happened. Instead I'm just going to double down on my assertion that there's some or even considerable (up to 49%) doubt. Whether I express it as an "only if" or a range like 51%-99%. I'll also toss up some dust about mutually exclusive blah blah blah because I want to sound more erudite than I am. And I pulled that range of 51%-99% out of my butt, instead of using a range like 75%-99% or 95%-99%, because it fits my personal narrative even though I know I'm way, way outside the vast scholarly consensus that Jesus existed. Why? Scholars be damned, I just can't stomach the vast consensus that Jesus existed with certainty better than 51%. But if you challenge me, I'll insult you.

DP. Seems like you struggle with reading comprehension and math.

Definitely = 100%
Most likely = 51% to 99%
Equally likely = 50%
Unlikely = 1-49%
Definitely not = 0%

"Only if we had 100% certainty" = we don't have 100% certainty

This thread is not moot, because we don't have 100%. It is most likely, which is less than 100%.

Hope that clears up your confusion.

Would you mind posting your reference source for those definitions?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most%20likely
"more likely than not"

https://www.nagwa.com/en/videos/657108270465/#:~:text=If%20an%20event%20is%20certain%20to%20happen%2C%20the%20probability%20is,it%20is%20likely%20to%20happen.
"If an event is certain to happen, the probability is equal to one. If it is equally likely that an event happens or does not happen, we say there is a 50-50 or even chance. If the probability is less than this, we say it is unlikely to happen. And if it is greater than this, it is likely to happen."

Nobody cares about your Google statistics.

The figure used by a vast scholarly concensus is 100% certainty that Jesus existed. Not “most likely” and not “51% to 99%.” One hundred percent. Read that again. One hundred percent. Even leading atheist Bart Ehrman thinks there’s 100% certainty and people who argue otherwise look foolish.

100% consensus of historians, not theologists? Citation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

Bumping because pp with a page of irrelevant basic stats links is obviously trolling really hard to get away from it.

One of the best arguments for Jesus’ existence—from a leading atheist.

"Paul is probably pretty good evidence"

"They each have heard about ... which heard about him from their own sources"

Bumping my response:
"probably pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

"pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

Nope. As Bart Ehrman pointed out, Paul knew Jesus’ brother James and his disciple Peter. As Bart says, if Jesus didn’t exist, his brother James would have said something about it.

Not all of us follow Ehrman as diligently as you do.

Not 100%.

You’re also out of step with the vast, vast scholarly consensus.

But you do you, cursing and posting dumb and irrelevant stat 101 links as you go on your silly and unhappy way.

I didn't curse.

I did post definitions & videos because someone asked for a citation.

Not all of us blindly believe everything that Ehrman says.

You called someone a dumb bastard and salted it with a dozen other ad hominems. Pat yourself on the back for your mature representation of atheists.

Good to know you don’t blindly follow Ehrman—most other scholars don’t either.

But, Ehrman is absolutely right when he says that Paul knew Jesus’ brother James and his disciple Peter. Paul wrote about James and Peter 20 years after Jesus’ death. This *fact* is incontrovertible, whether you like Ehrman’s other arguments or not. As Ehrman says, if Jesus didn’t exist then his brother would have said something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

"pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

Nope. As Bart Ehrman pointed out, Paul knew Jesus’ brother James and his disciple Peter. As Bart says, if Jesus didn’t exist, his brother James would have said something about it.

Not all of us follow Ehrman as diligently as you do.

Not 100%.

You’re also out of step with the vast, vast scholarly consensus.

But you do you, cursing and posting dumb and irrelevant stat 101 links as you go on your silly and unhappy way.

I didn't curse.

I did post definitions & videos because someone asked for a citation.

Not all of us blindly believe everything that Ehrman says.

You called someone a dumb bastard and salted it with a dozen other ad hominems. Pat yourself on the back for your mature representation of atheists.

Good to know you don’t blindly follow Ehrman—most other scholars don’t either.

But, Ehrman is absolutely right when he says that Paul knew Jesus’ brother James and his disciple Peter. Paul wrote about James and Peter 20 years after Jesus’ death. This *fact* is incontrovertible, whether you like Ehrman’s other arguments or not. As Ehrman says, if Jesus didn’t exist then his brother would have said something.

No, that wasn't me. There are multiple posters.

You sure post about Ehrman a lot. Seems like you are a big believer in what he says.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

Bumping because pp with a page of irrelevant basic stats links is obviously trolling really hard to get away from it.

One of the best arguments for Jesus’ existence—from a leading atheist.

"Paul is probably pretty good evidence"

"They each have heard about ... which heard about him from their own sources"

Bumping my response:
"probably pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

Again, Paul knew two crucial eye witnesses, Jesus’ brother and one of the most important disciples.

In the second link, Ehrman’s very first sentence is simply “Jesus existed.” He goes on to cite 30 sources and also some linguistic evidence.

Ehrman also says this: “I decided that the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands) are absolutely right. Jesus did exist.” https://ehrmanblog.org/would-i-be-personally-upset-if-the-mythicists-were-right-that-jesus-never-existed/

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Muhammad’s historicity is similarly debated. The Quran was written down 20 years after his death (echos of Paul). The Hadith were written 2-3 hundred years later. There’s no record the Muslim conquerors across North Africa mentioned Mohammed or Islam, nor did their conquered subjects, until about 80 years in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad

https://compassthroughchaos.medium.com/muhammad-is-as-real-as-the-lord-of-the-rings-5322b0bbe1

Yup. Just like Jesus, he “most likely” but we don’t have definitive evidence.

Who decides if evidence is "definitive?"

There is evidence (fact). Whether anyone is persuaded by that evidence is up to each individual.

We all have to decide for ourselves. For me "definitive" means direct evidence, and there isn't any. But OTH, circumstantial evidence, of which there is a lot, can be very persuasive.

You can be a Jesus truther and deny him, and join the flat earthers, climate change deniers, holocaust deniers, etc. Not great company to be in.

I was just commenting on the nature of the evidence. It's not strong, but I'm not a denier either.

Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure, and attempts to deny his historicity have been consistently rejected by the scholarly consensus as a fringe theory.

So those who deny Christ was a historical figure know more than every scholar in the Western world?

It’s really arrogant to think you know more than the academics and scholars who overwhelmingly agree Christ was a historical figure. They accept the evidence; why don’t you?

DP here. It is exceptionally distasteful for you to create a strawman and accuse PP of denial when their last sentence is literally "but I'm not a denier either"

That's flat out dishonest.

If you refuse to accept the nuance of PP's point, that's your issue entirely.

Nuance shuance. Jesus Christ existed, and the scholars and academics accept the evidence. pp repeating repeatedly “the evidence isn’t very good!” is distasteful. The evidence is fine for the scholars and academics. If it’s not good enough for some fringe rando, they can complain daily/monthly/yearly that they don’t accept it…but that doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. If you personally don’t accept the evidence, you are a fringe loony. Case closed. We all agree, right? Yes, of course we do. It’s settled. Christ was a real man who walked the earth. We all agree. Thread over.

OK fine. And there is no evidence of his divinity.

Thread REALLY over.

This thread was never about that; it was about his historical being.

Nope. If people didn't believe he was divine, there would be no thread at all.

No evidence of his divinity.

You lost the debate and had to admit Christ was a real man who walked the earth and his story is in the Bible. Each person can have an opinion on his divinity; on his historical being, they cannot. Create another thread for that.

Lies. Wrong. And a dose of stupid as a bonus.

Never claimed the man named Jesus didn't exist, so didn't lose any debate.

Fully accept scholarship that he likely did exist.

Fully understand there is ZERO EVIDENCE OF HIS DIVINITY, and that no one would care about the former question if you accept the latter.

+1

The man likely existed.

His divinity isn't based on evidence - just "faith" in the supernatural.

Then the question posed in the thread title is moot.

Only if we had 100% certainty that he existed. Actual evidence.

^^^ To the couple of trolls still claiming “but nobody on this thread ever said he didn’t exist,” here you go. Prima facie.

Wow you are entirely unable to comprehend a sentence. I can't believe you are that dense, so I can only assume you are trolling trying to get a reaction. Mission accomplished.

Wow, you’re abusive. And it’s also tragic that you don’t understand that using the subjunctive (“if only we had… then”) means uncertainty. Whether you know what the subjunctive is or not, and I suspect you don’t.

No I understand perfectly. So do you but you prefer to say things you really don’t believe in order to support things you do believe. Likely and not 100% certain or not mutually exclusive in anyway. In fact all of the percentages between 51% and 99% qualify as both. Like I said you do understand all of this you just prefer to deny it. It’s probably fine for you but we see right through it.

Translation: I have no idea what the he!! the subjunctive is so I'm going to pretend that never happened. Instead I'm just going to double down on my assertion that there's some or even considerable (up to 49%) doubt. Whether I express it as an "only if" or a range like 51%-99%. I'll also toss up some dust about mutually exclusive blah blah blah because I want to sound more erudite than I am. And I pulled that range of 51%-99% out of my butt, instead of using a range like 75%-99% or 95%-99%, because it fits my personal narrative even though I know I'm way, way outside the vast scholarly consensus that Jesus existed. Why? Scholars be damned, I just can't stomach the vast consensus that Jesus existed with certainty better than 51%. But if you challenge me, I'll insult you.

DP. Seems like you struggle with reading comprehension and math.

Definitely = 100%
Most likely = 51% to 99%
Equally likely = 50%
Unlikely = 1-49%
Definitely not = 0%

"Only if we had 100% certainty" = we don't have 100% certainty

This thread is not moot, because we don't have 100%. It is most likely, which is less than 100%.

Hope that clears up your confusion.

Would you mind posting your reference source for those definitions?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most%20likely
"more likely than not"

https://www.nagwa.com/en/videos/657108270465/#:~:text=If%20an%20event%20is%20certain%20to%20happen%2C%20the%20probability%20is,it%20is%20likely%20to%20happen.
"If an event is certain to happen, the probability is equal to one. If it is equally likely that an event happens or does not happen, we say there is a 50-50 or even chance. If the probability is less than this, we say it is unlikely to happen. And if it is greater than this, it is likely to happen."

Nobody cares about your Google statistics.

The figure used by a vast scholarly concensus is 100% certainty that Jesus existed. Not “most likely” and not “51% to 99%.” One hundred percent. Read that again. One hundred percent. Even leading atheist Bart Ehrman thinks there’s 100% certainty and people who argue otherwise look foolish.

100% consensus of historians, not theologists? Citation?

From Ehrman: “I decided that the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands) are absolutely right. Jesus did exist.”
https://ehrmanblog.org/would-i-be-personally-upset...ight-that-jesus-never-existed/

In many blogs on this subject, he also calls you guys “mythicists” who look foolish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

Bumping because pp with a page of irrelevant basic stats links is obviously trolling really hard to get away from it.

One of the best arguments for Jesus’ existence—from a leading atheist.

"Paul is probably pretty good evidence"

"They each have heard about ... which heard about him from their own sources"

Bumping my response:
"probably pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

Again, Paul knew two crucial eye witnesses, Jesus’ brother and one of the most important disciples.

In the second link, Ehrman’s very first sentence is simply “Jesus existed.” He goes on to cite 30 sources and also some linguistic evidence.

Ehrman also says this: “I decided that the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands) are absolutely right. Jesus did exist.” https://ehrmanblog.org/would-i-be-personally-upset-if-the-mythicists-were-right-that-jesus-never-existed/

Ehrman is a theologist trying to get press.

What do the independent historians (not theologists) say?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muhammad’s historicity is similarly debated. The Quran was written down 20 years after his death (echos of Paul). The Hadith were written 2-3 hundred years later. There’s no record the Muslim conquerors across North Africa mentioned Mohammed or Islam, nor did their conquered subjects, until about 80 years in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad

https://compassthroughchaos.medium.com/muhammad-is-as-real-as-the-lord-of-the-rings-5322b0bbe1

Yup. Just like Jesus, he “most likely” but we don’t have definitive evidence.

Who decides if evidence is "definitive?"

There is evidence (fact). Whether anyone is persuaded by that evidence is up to each individual.

We all have to decide for ourselves. For me "definitive" means direct evidence, and there isn't any. But OTH, circumstantial evidence, of which there is a lot, can be very persuasive.

You can be a Jesus truther and deny him, and join the flat earthers, climate change deniers, holocaust deniers, etc. Not great company to be in.

I was just commenting on the nature of the evidence. It's not strong, but I'm not a denier either.

Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure, and attempts to deny his historicity have been consistently rejected by the scholarly consensus as a fringe theory.

So those who deny Christ was a historical figure know more than every scholar in the Western world?

It’s really arrogant to think you know more than the academics and scholars who overwhelmingly agree Christ was a historical figure. They accept the evidence; why don’t you?

DP here. It is exceptionally distasteful for you to create a strawman and accuse PP of denial when their last sentence is literally "but I'm not a denier either"

That's flat out dishonest.

If you refuse to accept the nuance of PP's point, that's your issue entirely.

Nuance shuance. Jesus Christ existed, and the scholars and academics accept the evidence. pp repeating repeatedly “the evidence isn’t very good!” is distasteful. The evidence is fine for the scholars and academics. If it’s not good enough for some fringe rando, they can complain daily/monthly/yearly that they don’t accept it…but that doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. If you personally don’t accept the evidence, you are a fringe loony. Case closed. We all agree, right? Yes, of course we do. It’s settled. Christ was a real man who walked the earth. We all agree. Thread over.

OK fine. And there is no evidence of his divinity.

Thread REALLY over.

This thread was never about that; it was about his historical being.

Nope. If people didn't believe he was divine, there would be no thread at all.

No evidence of his divinity.

You lost the debate and had to admit Christ was a real man who walked the earth and his story is in the Bible. Each person can have an opinion on his divinity; on his historical being, they cannot. Create another thread for that.

Lies. Wrong. And a dose of stupid as a bonus.

Never claimed the man named Jesus didn't exist, so didn't lose any debate.

Fully accept scholarship that he likely did exist.

Fully understand there is ZERO EVIDENCE OF HIS DIVINITY, and that no one would care about the former question if you accept the latter.

+1

The man likely existed.

His divinity isn't based on evidence - just "faith" in the supernatural.

Then the question posed in the thread title is moot.

Only if we had 100% certainty that he existed. Actual evidence.

^^^ To the couple of trolls still claiming “but nobody on this thread ever said he didn’t exist,” here you go. Prima facie.

Wow you are entirely unable to comprehend a sentence. I can't believe you are that dense, so I can only assume you are trolling trying to get a reaction. Mission accomplished.

Wow, you’re abusive. And it’s also tragic that you don’t understand that using the subjunctive (“if only we had… then”) means uncertainty. Whether you know what the subjunctive is or not, and I suspect you don’t.

No I understand perfectly. So do you but you prefer to say things you really don’t believe in order to support things you do believe. Likely and not 100% certain or not mutually exclusive in anyway. In fact all of the percentages between 51% and 99% qualify as both. Like I said you do understand all of this you just prefer to deny it. It’s probably fine for you but we see right through it.

Translation: I have no idea what the he!! the subjunctive is so I'm going to pretend that never happened. Instead I'm just going to double down on my assertion that there's some or even considerable (up to 49%) doubt. Whether I express it as an "only if" or a range like 51%-99%. I'll also toss up some dust about mutually exclusive blah blah blah because I want to sound more erudite than I am. And I pulled that range of 51%-99% out of my butt, instead of using a range like 75%-99% or 95%-99%, because it fits my personal narrative even though I know I'm way, way outside the vast scholarly consensus that Jesus existed. Why? Scholars be damned, I just can't stomach the vast consensus that Jesus existed with certainty better than 51%. But if you challenge me, I'll insult you.

DP. Seems like you struggle with reading comprehension and math.

Definitely = 100%
Most likely = 51% to 99%
Equally likely = 50%
Unlikely = 1-49%
Definitely not = 0%

"Only if we had 100% certainty" = we don't have 100% certainty

This thread is not moot, because we don't have 100%. It is most likely, which is less than 100%.

Hope that clears up your confusion.

Would you mind posting your reference source for those definitions?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most%20likely
"more likely than not"

https://www.nagwa.com/en/videos/657108270465/#:~:text=If%20an%20event%20is%20certain%20to%20happen%2C%20the%20probability%20is,it%20is%20likely%20to%20happen.
"If an event is certain to happen, the probability is equal to one. If it is equally likely that an event happens or does not happen, we say there is a 50-50 or even chance. If the probability is less than this, we say it is unlikely to happen. And if it is greater than this, it is likely to happen."

Nobody cares about your Google statistics.

The figure used by a vast scholarly concensus is 100% certainty that Jesus existed. Not “most likely” and not “51% to 99%.” One hundred percent. Read that again. One hundred percent. Even leading atheist Bart Ehrman thinks there’s 100% certainty and people who argue otherwise look foolish.

100% consensus of historians, not theologists? Citation?

From Ehrman: “I decided that the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands) are absolutely right. Jesus did exist.”
https://ehrmanblog.org/would-i-be-personally-upset...ight-that-jesus-never-existed/

In many blogs on this subject, he also calls you guys “mythicists” who look foolish.

"Mythicists"? No one here has denied that he existed.

Still waiting to hear what the consensus is among independent historians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

Bumping because pp with a page of irrelevant basic stats links is obviously trolling really hard to get away from it.

One of the best arguments for Jesus’ existence—from a leading atheist.

"Paul is probably pretty good evidence"

"They each have heard about ... which heard about him from their own sources"

Bumping my response:
"probably pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

Again, Paul knew two crucial eye witnesses, Jesus’ brother and one of the most important disciples.

In the second link, Ehrman’s very first sentence is simply “Jesus existed.” He goes on to cite 30 sources and also some linguistic evidence.

Ehrman also says this: “I decided that the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands) are absolutely right. Jesus did exist.” https://ehrmanblog.org/would-i-be-personally-upset-if-the-mythicists-were-right-that-jesus-never-existed/

Ehrman is a theologist trying to get press.

What do the independent historians (not theologists) say?

I agree Ehrman is better at marketing himself than at unbiased theology. But he’s not wrong when he says “the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands).” The word scholars, obviously, includes historians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

Bumping because pp with a page of irrelevant basic stats links is obviously trolling really hard to get away from it.

One of the best arguments for Jesus’ existence—from a leading atheist.

"Paul is probably pretty good evidence"

"They each have heard about ... which heard about him from their own sources"

Bumping my response:
"probably pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

Again, Paul knew two crucial eye witnesses, Jesus’ brother and one of the most important disciples.

In the second link, Ehrman’s very first sentence is simply “Jesus existed.” He goes on to cite 30 sources and also some linguistic evidence.

Ehrman also says this: “I decided that the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands) are absolutely right. Jesus did exist.” https://ehrmanblog.org/would-i-be-personally-upset-if-the-mythicists-were-right-that-jesus-never-existed/

Ehrman is a theologist trying to get press.

What do the independent historians (not theologists) say?

I agree Ehrman is better at marketing himself than at unbiased theology. But he’s not wrong when he says “the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands).” The word scholars, obviously, includes historians.

OK. Sampling of these independent historians' opinions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even Bart Ehrman says: "Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed."
https://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

Ehrman also says this: But how can you make a convincing case if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus? These sources are not all living in the same village someplace so they are egging each other on. They didn’t compare notes. They are independent of one another and are scattered throughout the Mediterranean. They each have heard about the man Jesus from their own sources of information, which heard about him from their own sources of information. https://ehrmanblog.org/gospel-evidence-that-jesus-existed/

Bumping because pp with a page of irrelevant basic stats links is obviously trolling really hard to get away from it.

One of the best arguments for Jesus’ existence—from a leading atheist.

"Paul is probably pretty good evidence"

"They each have heard about ... which heard about him from their own sources"

Bumping my response:
"probably pretty good evidence" is not definitive. Not 100%.

So none of the "sources" were eyewitnesses. They only "knew" thirdhand information, at best.

Again, Paul knew two crucial eye witnesses, Jesus’ brother and one of the most important disciples.

In the second link, Ehrman’s very first sentence is simply “Jesus existed.” He goes on to cite 30 sources and also some linguistic evidence.

Ehrman also says this: “I decided that the vast majority of scholars (all but one or two, out of many thousands) are absolutely right. Jesus did exist.” https://ehrmanblog.org/would-i-be-personally-upset-if-the-mythicists-were-right-that-jesus-never-existed/

Ehrman is a theologist trying to get press.

What do the independent historians (not theologists) say?

Goalposts moved. Unsuccessfully.

Paul knowing James and Peter IS historical evidence. The linguistic evidence Ehrman and others cite IS historical evidence.