If Jesus wasn’t a real historical figure, where did Christian theology come from?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

Did someone say he was schizophrenic? I think some people liked the message, and wanted to belong to the various church communities (like today), but the Christians were a minor and inconsequential sect for 300 years until the emperor Constantine converted. Read A.N. Wilson's biography of Paul as to why he did it (he was convinced the Christian god could deliver military victories which, of course, included booty for him and his men).. That was Christianity's big break.

I like Paul as schizophrenic. It's very fight club. And there's a Darla. There's always a Darla.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

Did someone say he was schizophrenic? I think some people liked the message, and wanted to belong to the various church communities (like today), but the Christians were a minor and inconsequential sect for 300 years until the emperor Constantine converted. Read A.N. Wilson's biography of Paul as to why he did it (he was convinced the Christian god could deliver military victories which, of course, included booty for him and his men).. That was Christianity's big break.

Yeah -- the stuff you don't learn in sunday school!

you must be protestant.. i certainly learned this in 9th grade church history, or maybe even 8th grade. constantine had a dream or wife/ or mother, helen had a dream about fishes and greek letters.. etc and its called "pauline" christianity bc PAUL came up with it. Im pretty sure pauline christianity, a summary was the title of one of our textbooks. Did you drop out of sunday school in 5th grade?? And one of the major histories written about Augustus' reign does mention a messiah in Judea who caused all sorts of trouble .. most people think this was Jesus (pubh) he lived like all teh prophets lived and then died, like they did. Evangelical atheist are so tiresome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

Did someone say he was schizophrenic? I think some people liked the message, and wanted to belong to the various church communities (like today), but the Christians were a minor and inconsequential sect for 300 years until the emperor Constantine converted. Read A.N. Wilson's biography of Paul as to why he did it (he was convinced the Christian god could deliver military victories which, of course, included booty for him and his men).. That was Christianity's big break.

Yeah -- the stuff you don't learn in sunday school!

you must be protestant.. i certainly learned this in 9th grade church history, or maybe even 8th grade. constantine had a dream or wife/ or mother, helen had a dream about fishes and greek letters.. etc and its called "pauline" christianity bc PAUL came up with it. Im pretty sure pauline christianity, a summary was the title of one of our textbooks. Did you drop out of sunday school in 5th grade?? And one of the major histories written about Augustus' reign does mention a messiah in Judea who caused all sorts of trouble .. most people think this was Jesus (pubh) he lived like all teh prophets lived and then died, like they did. Evangelical atheist are so tiresome.

I learned this in my Protestant high school.

You’re right, it’s so tiresome when evangelical atheists find a new tidbit in some atheist media, something they had never heard before because they’re usually totally ignorant about Christianity, and they think it’s going to shatter all our world views.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

Did someone say he was schizophrenic? I think some people liked the message, and wanted to belong to the various church communities (like today), but the Christians were a minor and inconsequential sect for 300 years until the emperor Constantine converted. Read A.N. Wilson's biography of Paul as to why he did it (he was convinced the Christian god could deliver military victories which, of course, included booty for him and his men).. That was Christianity's big break.

I like Paul as schizophrenic. It's very fight club. And there's a Darla. There's always a Darla.

The rapist poster said Jesus was a schizophrenic. Mental illness—one of those things it’s ok to mock.

I guess you don’t realize how dumb your little quips seem to the adults.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm an atheist, but in my understanding, historians generally agree that Jesus was a real historical person.

But to answer your wider question - Christian theology didn't come from Jesus. Christian theology was first agreed upon at the Council of Nicaea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

OP here. Yes, yes. I know about the council of Nicaea. I have been saying the Nicene Creed every Sunday for most of my life. I also k is about Saint Jerome.

That isn’t my question. The question is for those who do NOT believe that Jesus was a real, historical figure. Paul had a pretty clear theology and a pretty clear story. And he was definitely a real dude. I am not trying to use this to prove the existence of Jesus as a real person. I am just curious about where people think he got his ideas.

It seems doubtful that he just made the whole thing up on his own. Do people think he just listened to some other delusional people talking about Christ? Or that these ideas were kind of out there already, and he just invented this figure?

Paul wasn't the only one to write about him. Non-follower writers who mentioned him include Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and Roman senator and historian Tacitus.

They weren’t contemporaries. They had, at best, second-hand information. Likely far more removed.

That just proves that people at that time believed there was a guy named Jesus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

historical figures are not needed to form a religion -- e.g., american indian religions and european paganism. People just dream up this stuff and sometimes a name gets attached to it and sometimes it doesn't.

Also, you don't have to be crazy -- just in search of meaning.

It's immaterial whether Jesus existed or not. Christianity certainly exists and has been a force in the world for centuries.

If it were proven that there was no Jesus, no crucifixion and no resurrection, Christianity would still probably survive.

It might not thrive, but it's already dying even with a lot of people still believing in it -- just not as many as before.

Since people are no longer burned at the stake for not believing, it's easer to come out as an atheist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

historical figures are not needed to form a religion -- e.g., american indian religions and european paganism. People just dream up this stuff and sometimes a name gets attached to it and sometimes it doesn't.

Also, you don't have to be crazy -- just in search of meaning.

It's immaterial whether Jesus existed or not. Christianity certainly exists and has been a force in the world for centuries.

If it were proven that there was no Jesus, no crucifixion and no resurrection, Christianity would still probably survive.

It might not thrive, but it's already dying even with a lot of people still believing in it -- just not as many as before.

Since people are no longer burned at the stake for not believing, it's easer to come out as an atheist.

Focus, people.

OP is specifically addressing the origins of Christianity, because this is something that atheists have kept coming back to over the past few days. Not whether atheists feel comfortable coming out.

I think OP’s point is that so many independent but similar testimonies emerged that it suggests an actual person. You’d need Big European Religion to coordinate a similar rollout in the absence of a real person who did real things. Which obviously seems really improbable. Props, though, for going bravely down the path of silly conspiracy theories.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

historical figures are not needed to form a religion -- e.g., american indian religions and european paganism. People just dream up this stuff and sometimes a name gets attached to it and sometimes it doesn't.

Also, you don't have to be crazy -- just in search of meaning.

It's immaterial whether Jesus existed or not. Christianity certainly exists and has been a force in the world for centuries.

If it were proven that there was no Jesus, no crucifixion and no resurrection, Christianity would still probably survive.

It might not thrive, but it's already dying even with a lot of people still believing in it -- just not as many as before.

Since people are no longer burned at the stake for not believing, it's easer to come out as an atheist.

Focus, people.

OP is specifically addressing the origins of Christianity, because this is something that atheists have kept coming back to over the past few days. Not whether atheists feel comfortable coming out.

I think OP’s point is that so many independent but similar testimonies emerged that it suggests an actual person. You’d need Big European Religion to coordinate a similar rollout in the absence of a real person who did real things. Which obviously seems really improbable. Props, though, for going bravely down the path of silly conspiracy theories.

"Testimonies"? Outside of the gospels?

Or maybe they heard the same story that had been circulating for decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

historical figures are not needed to form a religion -- e.g., american indian religions and european paganism. People just dream up this stuff and sometimes a name gets attached to it and sometimes it doesn't.

Also, you don't have to be crazy -- just in search of meaning.

It's immaterial whether Jesus existed or not. Christianity certainly exists and has been a force in the world for centuries.

If it were proven that there was no Jesus, no crucifixion and no resurrection, Christianity would still probably survive.

It might not thrive, but it's already dying even with a lot of people still believing in it -- just not as many as before.

Since people are no longer burned at the stake for not believing, it's easer to come out as an atheist.

Focus, people.

OP is specifically addressing the origins of Christianity, because this is something that atheists have kept coming back to over the past few days. Not whether atheists feel comfortable coming out.

I think OP’s point is that so many independent but similar testimonies emerged that it suggests an actual person. You’d need Big European Religion to coordinate a similar rollout in the absence of a real person who did real things. Which obviously seems really improbable. Props, though, for going bravely down the path of silly conspiracy theories.

I doubt that dedicated Christians spend too much time wondering or worrying about if Jesus was a real person. It's the teachings of love and acceptance and charity that they care about and would likely continue to practice even if there were proof that Jesus was not real.

[Anonymous]

Read Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?" He's an atheist/agnostic, for what it's worth.


I'm not Christian (raised quasi-Catholic, it didn't stick) but I find his evidence compelling. Jesus was real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

historical figures are not needed to form a religion -- e.g., american indian religions and european paganism. People just dream up this stuff and sometimes a name gets attached to it and sometimes it doesn't.

Also, you don't have to be crazy -- just in search of meaning.

It's immaterial whether Jesus existed or not. Christianity certainly exists and has been a force in the world for centuries.

If it were proven that there was no Jesus, no crucifixion and no resurrection, Christianity would still probably survive.

It might not thrive, but it's already dying even with a lot of people still believing in it -- just not as many as before.

Since people are no longer burned at the stake for not believing, it's easer to come out as an atheist.

Focus, people.

OP is specifically addressing the origins of Christianity, because this is something that atheists have kept coming back to over the past few days. Not whether atheists feel comfortable coming out.

I think OP’s point is that so many independent but similar testimonies emerged that it suggests an actual person. You’d need Big European Religion to coordinate a similar rollout in the absence of a real person who did real things. Which obviously seems really improbable. Props, though, for going bravely down the path of silly conspiracy theories.

I doubt that dedicated Christians spend too much time wondering or worrying about if Jesus was a real person. It's the teachings of love and acceptance and charity that they care about and would likely continue to practice even if there were proof that Jesus was not real.

I hear this quite often, but what about the other stuff? Like the virgin birth, bodily resurrection, and salvation being possible ONLY by believing in Jesus ? You believe that stuff? Or just the "teaching of love and acceptance and charity?" (i.e., the good things, I acknowledge).

[Anonymous]

**Most likely** he was real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

historical figures are not needed to form a religion -- e.g., american indian religions and european paganism. People just dream up this stuff and sometimes a name gets attached to it and sometimes it doesn't.

Also, you don't have to be crazy -- just in search of meaning.

It's immaterial whether Jesus existed or not. Christianity certainly exists and has been a force in the world for centuries.

If it were proven that there was no Jesus, no crucifixion and no resurrection, Christianity would still probably survive.

It might not thrive, but it's already dying even with a lot of people still believing in it -- just not as many as before.

Since people are no longer burned at the stake for not believing, it's easer to come out as an atheist.

Focus, people.

OP is specifically addressing the origins of Christianity, because this is something that atheists have kept coming back to over the past few days. Not whether atheists feel comfortable coming out.

I think OP’s point is that so many independent but similar testimonies emerged that it suggests an actual person. You’d need Big European Religion to coordinate a similar rollout in the absence of a real person who did real things. Which obviously seems really improbable. Props, though, for going bravely down the path of silly conspiracy theories.

I doubt that dedicated Christians spend too much time wondering or worrying about if Jesus was a real person. It's the teachings of love and acceptance and charity that they care about and would likely continue to practice even if there were proof that Jesus was not real.

I hear this quite often, but what about the other stuff? Like the virgin birth, bodily resurrection, and salvation being possible ONLY by believing in Jesus ? You believe that stuff? Or just the "teaching of love and acceptance and charity?" (i.e., the good things, I acknowledge).

This discussion is about OP's premise that Jesus did not exist historically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

historical figures are not needed to form a religion -- e.g., american indian religions and european paganism. People just dream up this stuff and sometimes a name gets attached to it and sometimes it doesn't.

Also, you don't have to be crazy -- just in search of meaning.

It's immaterial whether Jesus existed or not. Christianity certainly exists and has been a force in the world for centuries.

If it were proven that there was no Jesus, no crucifixion and no resurrection, Christianity would still probably survive.

It might not thrive, but it's already dying even with a lot of people still believing in it -- just not as many as before.

Since people are no longer burned at the stake for not believing, it's easer to come out as an atheist.

Focus, people.

OP is specifically addressing the origins of Christianity, because this is something that atheists have kept coming back to over the past few days. Not whether atheists feel comfortable coming out.

I think OP’s point is that so many independent but similar testimonies emerged that it suggests an actual person. You’d need Big European Religion to coordinate a similar rollout in the absence of a real person who did real things. Which obviously seems really improbable. Props, though, for going bravely down the path of silly conspiracy theories.

I doubt that dedicated Christians spend too much time wondering or worrying about if Jesus was a real person. It's the teachings of love and acceptance and charity that they care about and would likely continue to practice even if there were proof that Jesus was not real.

I hear this quite often, but what about the other stuff? Like the virgin birth, bodily resurrection, and salvation being possible ONLY by believing in Jesus ? You believe that stuff? Or just the "teaching of love and acceptance and charity?" (i.e., the good things, I acknowledge).

This discussion is about OP's premise that Jesus did not exist historically.

I *think* OP is a Christian who is setting up a straw man about some conspiracy theory to fabricate Jesus, to show how improbable that sounds. At least that’s what I took from OP’s post a page or two ago.

[Anonymous]

I'm an atheist and have never heard that Jesus is a debated historical figure. I feel like he's less controversial than Shakespeare!