School Shooting in Michigan. 3 Teens DEAD. 1 15-yr old suspect in custody.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, every rationale possible is being used by the PPs in this thread to excuse the gun owners and their kid (the shooter) passing the blame to anyone else.

Not true. I blame:

The kid
The parents (maybe even more than the kid)
The school admin (for not calling police/searching the bag/sending the kid home)
The laws for giving this kid more rights than his fellow students.

I can blame many things at once. An absolutely tragedy that could have been prevented so many ways.

Tell me what rights this kid has that other kids do not. Name one.

You can't because this kid has no more rights than anyone else.

This kid has no more rights than any other kid. You sound like one of those insane anti-public school LCPS haters nutjobs. You are ignorant and don't understand the laws related to education. BTW if you are the same poster blaming IDEA and FAPE, YOU ARE AN IDIOT. FAPE AND IDEA have nothing to do with what happened with this kid and would not stop the school from sending the kid home.

So much ignorance posted here.

The push for the rights of troubled kids absolutely are the reason this kid was not told to go home with his parents. It’s the reason they were allowed to “decline” to take him home. And why the school didn’t search him. Schools searched lockers and bags all the time when we were kids. All they needed was an anonymous tip.

NP. How, precisely, is a school administrator supposed to force a parent to take a child home if that parent declines. Please explain with precision how that works both legally and logistically.

Suspend him for the safety of the student body and if they leave without him, he’s trespassing. Call. The. Police.

Are you really this simple?

What bizarre fantasy world are you living in? This never happened, not even in whatever imaginary world you think used to exist.

Stick to reality, please.

There was a different power dynamic. The school had the power and authority. Principals in the 70s did not play. If the parents wouldn’t take the kid. They would have had them escorted from campus. The litigious nature of our society and changes in law have made is such that schools are wary about exercising authority in situations such as this which is what got us here. It is my hope that this will help bring more balance back to the schools and recognize that kids that aren’t troubled have rights and need protection and care as well.

x100000

EXACTLY THIS.

PP is either obtuse or one of those parents (who wants to see how much the other parents know).

Yes, and the parents of the difficult kids either scream IEP! (if they have one) or BULLYING! (if they don’t) to get their way and not admit wrong doing from their child.

+1

EXACTLY. Meanwhile, terrorizing the rest of the school whenever they feel like it, which is too often. It is a dangerous situation, and the rest of the unsuspecting students should not be put in this dangerous (potentially lethal, as we see here) situation. BUT those parents want to censor and not warn anyone else - therein lies the exact problem ie: not telling the school they had a gun.

Yes. My son was punched in the face in 5th grade. Obviously he knew who did it but the school would not officially name him to me. They would not tell us how he would be punished and he was not removed from the class so my son was not only robbed of receiving any justice but was forced to continue in a class with a child who had assaulted him. It is unconscionable! The privacy rights of the assailant took precedent over my sons rights and his well being. In the end we were forced to for lack of a better term, throw a tantrum to get him moved to a different class but still HE was the victim and he had to move. We sent him to private for high school where there is accountability!

So glad you got out of that school system. I wish everyone was able to afford private, because you know (as you stated) - they don't discipline, never mind move, the troublemakers. And yes, God forbid you say the troublemakers name. But you know what? Everyone knows who the class troublemaker's is - and who their parents are.

If you threw a fit, only imagine how much the troublemakers' parents throw fits. I am glad this subject is coming to light, because innocent children and innocent parents deserve to know - and most of all, deserve to be safe - and alive, at school.

Well it helps to have $50k a year sitting around. There are millions of terrific kids who don’t have that luxury. Listen I get that kids aren’t perfect and my kids are far from perfect but they deserve to be seen and nurtured as much as any other kid. The pendulum has swung too far. The troubled kids need help but treating them with kid gloves isn’t helping them.

+1

Well said. Those parents are taking advantage and work the system, which only ends badly - for the assailant, too! the common thread is that they seem to not care about their child, at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not about discipline. The child was in mental health crisis.

He should have been sent to a hospital as would have happened if it was a life threatening physical illness.

You don’t leave the welfare of a kid who is talking the way he was in the hands of the questionable adults who raised him to be that way!

Schools can’t override parents when it comes to institutionalization and seeking treatment for a student. The school is a government agency, but it doesn’t have the force of policing or forcing health care decisions onto families.

What don’t people get about that? And do you really want school administrators to have that kind of power over your families? Schools really can’t act when there’s uncooperative parents and no signs of physical/sexual abuse.

I don't think of it as control "over my family."

I think of it as responsible adults stepping in to protect a child with very limited power.

Parents do not own their children.

This is from the PA dept of education's Model Suicide Prevention Policy:

<<Procedures for Parental Involvement

Parents or guardians of a student identified as being at risk of suicide must be immediately notified by the school and must be involved in consequent actions and provided with crisis and community resources. If any mandated reporter suspects that a student’s risk status is the result of abuse or neglect, that individual must comply with the reporting requirements of the Child Protective Services Law.

If the parents or guardians refuse to cooperate and there is any doubt regarding the child’s safety, the school personnel who directly witnessed the expressed suicide thought or intention will pursue a 302 involuntary behavioral health assessment by calling County Emergency Services at [provide number] and ask for a delegate. >>

The bar for actually sending someone to a hospital after county emergency service assessment is so high. My husband threatened suicide, had the means to do so and was missing for a time. When I called the police, they did the right thing and brought in the county mental health group. They asked him a few questions, spoke to him for less than 5 minutes and left. He was not in imminent danger according to them. I don’t know how much more proof someone is suicidal than a text outlining that he is going to do it.
If you haven’t been through this scenario, please don’t assume that the county or any mental health group is going to swoop in and save the day. They just don’t.

+1

So many people dn't understand in how many ways the school's hands are tied, especially with parents like these.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, every rationale possible is being used by the PPs in this thread to excuse the gun owners and their kid (the shooter) passing the blame to anyone else.

Not true. I blame:

The kid
The parents (maybe even more than the kid)
The school admin (for not calling police/searching the bag/sending the kid home)
The laws for giving this kid more rights than his fellow students.

I can blame many things at once. An absolutely tragedy that could have been prevented so many ways.

Tell me what rights this kid has that other kids do not. Name one.

You can't because this kid has no more rights than anyone else.

This kid has no more rights than any other kid. You sound like one of those insane anti-public school LCPS haters nutjobs. You are ignorant and don't understand the laws related to education. BTW if you are the same poster blaming IDEA and FAPE, YOU ARE AN IDIOT. FAPE AND IDEA have nothing to do with what happened with this kid and would not stop the school from sending the kid home.

So much ignorance posted here.

The push for the rights of troubled kids absolutely are the reason this kid was not told to go home with his parents. It’s the reason they were allowed to “decline” to take him home. And why the school didn’t search him. Schools searched lockers and bags all the time when we were kids. All they needed was an anonymous tip.

NP. How, precisely, is a school administrator supposed to force a parent to take a child home if that parent declines. Please explain with precision how that works both legally and logistically.

Suspend him for the safety of the student body and if they leave without him, he’s trespassing. Call. The. Police.

Are you really this simple?

What bizarre fantasy world are you living in? This never happened, not even in whatever imaginary world you think used to exist.

Stick to reality, please.

There was a different power dynamic. The school had the power and authority. Principals in the 70s did not play. If the parents wouldn’t take the kid. They would have had them escorted from campus. The litigious nature of our society and changes in law have made is such that schools are wary about exercising authority in situations such as this which is what got us here. It is my hope that this will help bring more balance back to the schools and recognize that kids that aren’t troubled have rights and need protection and care as well.

x100000

EXACTLY THIS.

PP is either obtuse or one of those parents (who wants to see how much the other parents know).

My kids have never been called to the principal's office, and are teens about to go to good colleges. But I think you are imagining an idealized 70s that didn't exist. Or you are just okay with the rampant discrimination that existed.

Do you really think a white boy who wasn't poor would have been treated the way you are imagining? Yes, they'd just escort the Black teens off (even if they'd done nothing wrong), but I flat-out don't believe your fantasies with respect to kids like Crumbley.

Given that I was there in the 70s and 80s I can assure you there was no playing. No nonsense and No coddling. Of course there was discrimination but there were also fewer kids hurt by peers at school. How about we fix the discrimination instead of “fixing” it by just doing away with discipline which hurts all the kids including the kids who need discipline. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

+1

This is exactly it! People who haven't lived it have no idea. Some parents are seriously hurting their kids, case in point - these two.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not about discipline. The child was in mental health crisis.

He should have been sent to a hospital as would have happened if it was a life threatening physical illness.

You don’t leave the welfare of a kid who is talking the way he was in the hands of the questionable adults who raised him to be that way!

Schools can’t override parents when it comes to institutionalization and seeking treatment for a student. The school is a government agency, but it doesn’t have the force of policing or forcing health care decisions onto families.

What don’t people get about that? And do you really want school administrators to have that kind of power over your families? Schools really can’t act when there’s uncooperative parents and no signs of physical/sexual abuse.

I don't think of it as control "over my family."

I think of it as responsible adults stepping in to protect a child with very limited power.

Parents do not own their children.

This is from the PA dept of education's Model Suicide Prevention Policy:

<<Procedures for Parental Involvement

Parents or guardians of a student identified as being at risk of suicide must be immediately notified by the school and must be involved in consequent actions and provided with crisis and community resources. If any mandated reporter suspects that a student’s risk status is the result of abuse or neglect, that individual must comply with the reporting requirements of the Child Protective Services Law.

If the parents or guardians refuse to cooperate and there is any doubt regarding the child’s safety, the school personnel who directly witnessed the expressed suicide thought or intention will pursue a 302 involuntary behavioral health assessment by calling County Emergency Services at [provide number] and ask for a delegate. >>

The bar for actually sending someone to a hospital after county emergency service assessment is so high. My husband threatened suicide, had the means to do so and was missing for a time. When I called the police, they did the right thing and brought in the county mental health group. They asked him a few questions, spoke to him for less than 5 minutes and left. He was not in imminent danger according to them. I don’t know how much more proof someone is suicidal than a text outlining that he is going to do it.
If you haven’t been through this scenario, please don’t assume that the county or any mental health group is going to swoop in and save the day. They just don’t.

+1

So many people dn't understand in how many ways the school's hands are tied, especially with parents like these.

Numerous legal experts on student rights have come out and stated this school absolutely had the right, given the known information, to search this student’s bag and locker. They also had the right to keep the student detained, even if the parents wouldn’t take him home. And the Sheriff said they literally arrested a kid a couple days later just for threatening to copycat and they wished that school had called them in as soon as they called the parents. The school is so screwed here. And they should be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not about discipline. The child was in mental health crisis.

He should have been sent to a hospital as would have happened if it was a life threatening physical illness.

You don’t leave the welfare of a kid who is talking the way he was in the hands of the questionable adults who raised him to be that way!

Schools can’t override parents when it comes to institutionalization and seeking treatment for a student. The school is a government agency, but it doesn’t have the force of policing or forcing health care decisions onto families.

What don’t people get about that? And do you really want school administrators to have that kind of power over your families? Schools really can’t act when there’s uncooperative parents and no signs of physical/sexual abuse.

I don't think of it as control "over my family."

I think of it as responsible adults stepping in to protect a child with very limited power.

Parents do not own their children.

This is from the PA dept of education's Model Suicide Prevention Policy:

<<Procedures for Parental Involvement

Parents or guardians of a student identified as being at risk of suicide must be immediately notified by the school and must be involved in consequent actions and provided with crisis and community resources. If any mandated reporter suspects that a student’s risk status is the result of abuse or neglect, that individual must comply with the reporting requirements of the Child Protective Services Law.

If the parents or guardians refuse to cooperate and there is any doubt regarding the child’s safety, the school personnel who directly witnessed the expressed suicide thought or intention will pursue a 302 involuntary behavioral health assessment by calling County Emergency Services at [provide number] and ask for a delegate. >>

The bar for actually sending someone to a hospital after county emergency service assessment is so high. My husband threatened suicide, had the means to do so and was missing for a time. When I called the police, they did the right thing and brought in the county mental health group. They asked him a few questions, spoke to him for less than 5 minutes and left. He was not in imminent danger according to them. I don’t know how much more proof someone is suicidal than a text outlining that he is going to do it.
If you haven’t been through this scenario, please don’t assume that the county or any mental health group is going to swoop in and save the day. They just don’t.

+1

So many people dn't understand in how many ways the school's hands are tied, especially with parents like these.

Numerous legal experts on student rights have come out and stated this school absolutely had the right, given the known information, to search this student’s bag and locker. They also had the right to keep the student detained, even if the parents wouldn’t take him home. And the Sheriff said they literally arrested a kid a couple days later just for threatening to copycat and they wished that school had called them in as soon as they called the parents. The school is so screwed here. And they should be.

Maybe. But the parents should be "more screwed" (sic). The parents f=dropped the parenting ball in each and every way possible. Besides that, they are cowards who ran like scared monkeys.

[Anonymous]

*omit f= (typo)

[Anonymous]

I hope those parents get sued nine ways to Sunday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not about discipline. The child was in mental health crisis.

He should have been sent to a hospital as would have happened if it was a life threatening physical illness.

You don’t leave the welfare of a kid who is talking the way he was in the hands of the questionable adults who raised him to be that way!

Schools can’t override parents when it comes to institutionalization and seeking treatment for a student. The school is a government agency, but it doesn’t have the force of policing or forcing health care decisions onto families.

What don’t people get about that? And do you really want school administrators to have that kind of power over your families? Schools really can’t act when there’s uncooperative parents and no signs of physical/sexual abuse.

I don't think of it as control "over my family."

I think of it as responsible adults stepping in to protect a child with very limited power.

Parents do not own their children.

This is from the PA dept of education's Model Suicide Prevention Policy:

<<Procedures for Parental Involvement

Parents or guardians of a student identified as being at risk of suicide must be immediately notified by the school and must be involved in consequent actions and provided with crisis and community resources. If any mandated reporter suspects that a student’s risk status is the result of abuse or neglect, that individual must comply with the reporting requirements of the Child Protective Services Law.

If the parents or guardians refuse to cooperate and there is any doubt regarding the child’s safety, the school personnel who directly witnessed the expressed suicide thought or intention will pursue a 302 involuntary behavioral health assessment by calling County Emergency Services at [provide number] and ask for a delegate. >>

The bar for actually sending someone to a hospital after county emergency service assessment is so high. My husband threatened suicide, had the means to do so and was missing for a time. When I called the police, they did the right thing and brought in the county mental health group. They asked him a few questions, spoke to him for less than 5 minutes and left. He was not in imminent danger according to them. I don’t know how much more proof someone is suicidal than a text outlining that he is going to do it.
If you haven’t been through this scenario, please don’t assume that the county or any mental health group is going to swoop in and save the day. They just don’t.

+1

So many people dn't understand in how many ways the school's hands are tied, especially with parents like these.

Numerous legal experts on student rights have come out and stated this school absolutely had the right, given the known information, to search this student’s bag and locker. They also had the right to keep the student detained, even if the parents wouldn’t take him home. And the Sheriff said they literally arrested a kid a couple days later just for threatening to copycat and they wished that school had called them in as soon as they called the parents. The school is so screwed here. And they should be.

Maybe. But the parents should be "more screwed" (sic). The parents f=dropped the parenting ball in each and every way possible. Besides that, they are cowards who ran like scared monkeys.

They can both be culpable. Blaming one doesn’t exonerate the other. Both can be guilty and responsible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I hope those parents get sued nine ways to Sunday.

m
Honestly the more I learn about the parents the worse I feel for the kid. Especially after seeing those videos when he was 10. There is a collective failure of this child and I’m not generally prone to sympathy for murderers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I hope those parents get sued nine ways to Sunday.

m
Honestly the more I learn about the parents the worse I feel for the kid. Especially after seeing those videos when he was 10. There is a collective failure of this child and I’m not generally prone to sympathy for murderers.

Which videos?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I hope those parents get sued nine ways to Sunday.

m
Honestly the more I learn about the parents the worse I feel for the kid. Especially after seeing those videos when he was 10. There is a collective failure of this child and I’m not generally prone to sympathy for murderers.

Which videos?

Probably the one where the mother tricked the kid into eating a spoonful of horseradish for laughs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not about discipline. The child was in mental health crisis.

He should have been sent to a hospital as would have happened if it was a life threatening physical illness.

You don’t leave the welfare of a kid who is talking the way he was in the hands of the questionable adults who raised him to be that way!

Schools can’t override parents when it comes to institutionalization and seeking treatment for a student. The school is a government agency, but it doesn’t have the force of policing or forcing health care decisions onto families.

What don’t people get about that? And do you really want school administrators to have that kind of power over your families? Schools really can’t act when there’s uncooperative parents and no signs of physical/sexual abuse.

I don't think of it as control "over my family."

I think of it as responsible adults stepping in to protect a child with very limited power.

Parents do not own their children.

This is from the PA dept of education's Model Suicide Prevention Policy:

<<Procedures for Parental Involvement

Parents or guardians of a student identified as being at risk of suicide must be immediately notified by the school and must be involved in consequent actions and provided with crisis and community resources. If any mandated reporter suspects that a student’s risk status is the result of abuse or neglect, that individual must comply with the reporting requirements of the Child Protective Services Law.

If the parents or guardians refuse to cooperate and there is any doubt regarding the child’s safety, the school personnel who directly witnessed the expressed suicide thought or intention will pursue a 302 involuntary behavioral health assessment by calling County Emergency Services at [provide number] and ask for a delegate. >>

The bar for actually sending someone to a hospital after county emergency service assessment is so high. My husband threatened suicide, had the means to do so and was missing for a time. When I called the police, they did the right thing and brought in the county mental health group. They asked him a few questions, spoke to him for less than 5 minutes and left. He was not in imminent danger according to them. I don’t know how much more proof someone is suicidal than a text outlining that he is going to do it.
If you haven’t been through this scenario, please don’t assume that the county or any mental health group is going to swoop in and save the day. They just don’t.

+1

So many people dn't understand in how many ways the school's hands are tied, especially with parents like these.

Numerous legal experts on student rights have come out and stated this school absolutely had the right, given the known information, to search this student’s bag and locker. They also had the right to keep the student detained, even if the parents wouldn’t take him home. And the Sheriff said they literally arrested a kid a couple days later just for threatening to copycat and they wished that school had called them in as soon as they called the parents. The school is so screwed here. And they should be.

Maybe. But the parents should be "more screwed" (sic). The parents f=dropped the parenting ball in each and every way possible. Besides that, they are cowards who ran like scared monkeys.

BOTH the parents AND the school need to be screwed.

And I'm disgusted that the parents were given bail at all after the stunt they pulled. The gun nuts of the world can pull together $100K online in days for the poor, martyred patriots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I hope those parents get sued nine ways to Sunday.

Are you kidding? Those people are poor, what good would this do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I hope those parents get sued nine ways to Sunday.

m
Honestly the more I learn about the parents the worse I feel for the kid. Especially after seeing those videos when he was 10. There is a collective failure of this child and I’m not generally prone to sympathy for murderers.

Which videos?

Probably the one where the mother tricked the kid into eating a spoonful of horseradish for laughs.

I don't like sick humor at the expense of kids. There's something "off" about this mom.

[Anonymous]

When we know more about all the details, maybe we can assign the proper order to the blame. In the meantime, why is wrong pointing out that many failures led to the tragedy?! There are so many failures and so many places to assign blame:

*the fifteen-year-old himself
*the parents and the last fifteen years of parenting, but especially the last few weeks
*terrifyingly and absurdly lax gun laws
*the school's decision making

If there are mental health issues or bullying, we can add them to the list. We *should* add them to the list. We are all wondering but just don't know about that yet.

This isn't excuse making, this is trying to understand an almost incomprehensible reality to even have a chance to prevent another one in the future. It is very likely that if even ONE factor had been radically different the tragedy would have been prevented! It definitely would not have happened that day.

Again, these are not excuses and no one, as far as I know, wants to let the kids or the parents off the hook. But there are multiple factors that contributed and led up to the events and we should want to understand all of them.