Family pressure for son’s name

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, as another compromise, what about a great grandfather's name or using the grandfather's middle name?

I also disagree with the sentiment that following a cultural and family tradition is anti-woman. It's not. Traditions can be meaningful to a family and create a sense of history and belonging for a child. They can also evolve over time, but I don't think it should be thrown out flippantly.

Not all traditions are anti-woman, but this one clearly is, given that it cuts the mother out of naming her own child, as well as ensuring her child can’t be named to honor anyone on her side of the family. It doesn’t get much more anti-women than that.

DP here. And I don't see this. They could pick a middle name that is from the mom's side. If it's helpful, DH has his father's first name. His middle name is his maternal uncle's (who died very young) first name. He goes by his middle name. DH is white, and these choices weren't cultural/traditional...but this kind of thing is completely doable. Interestingly, DH's first name is very common in the US, whereas his middle name is not and often bungled by Americans (would not be in the UK). He goes by it nonetheless.

If that’s equal, they can pick Hani as a middle name, right?

Also I understood in a previous post the same tradition has the fathers name as the middle. So the tradition cuts out the woman entirely. But that’s ok she’s just carrying and delivering and caring for the child, why should the fact that she dislikes the name matter?

Not exactly. Majority of Arabs simply don’t have middle names. Name is the following: “x, son of y, son of z, son of m, son of…. ,last name. With a girl it would be “x, daughter of y, son of z, son of m, son of…. Last name.” So lots of Arabs dunno where to put “son of y son of z of of m” so then they just put fathers name is middle name spot. But it’s not a middle name and the “son of” part can go on forever. Other Arabs living in the west don’t make this substitution and instead adopt the western practice of giving their child a middle name. And others just leave it blank. So basically there is no middle name tradition in the Arab world. Arabs living here are confused over what to put as the middle name. Some pick a middle name, some just substitute the fathers name (which is not a middle name) and others leave it blank. For our daughters we put my husbands name. Out of our friends, two families did what we did, 3 left it blank, and 5 families picked a middle name for their child.

Right...so the tradition is to only honor the fathers side. Since none of those son-ofs have anything to do with the mother/brood mare.

What I’m saying is that there is no middle name tradition at all. The “son of” part is just lineage and can go on forever. A person’s name is their first name and their last name. Because there is no middle name tradition in the Arab world then ppl substitute it with the fathers name, no name or adopt the western middle name tradition. Middle names simply do not translate to Arab culture. I am assuming that none of OP’s in laws care what the middle name is and none of them would even ask. I forgot about one of my Arab friends who chose her father’s name as her son’s middle name and then her mother’s name as her second daughter’s mother’s name. I had no idea that’s what she did until years later when I was helping her fill out some paper work. It is that insignificant.

To explain further, I just got my US citizenship 5 years ago. My passport from my country of origin has my name as follows. “X, daughter of Y, son of Z, son of M, last name.” My birth certificate has my name as follows: “X, daughter of Y, son of Z, last name.” My ID has my name as follows: “X, daughter of Y, last name.” My paperwork from school and college though has my name as “x, last name. ” What they ended up writing in each official document is whatever fits the page… if they had endless amount of space they would go on forever. If they have no space then they just would do first name and last name. Difference in passport and birth certificate caused so many issues with immigration that when I finally got my citizenship I applied for a name change and dropped all the names except for my fathers and used that for my “middle name.” I could have easily done what my friend did and dropped the “daughter of..son of part” in its entirety.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, as another compromise, what about a great grandfather's name or using the grandfather's middle name?

I also disagree with the sentiment that following a cultural and family tradition is anti-woman. It's not. Traditions can be meaningful to a family and create a sense of history and belonging for a child. They can also evolve over time, but I don't think it should be thrown out flippantly.

Not all traditions are anti-woman, but this one clearly is, given that it cuts the mother out of naming her own child, as well as ensuring her child can’t be named to honor anyone on her side of the family. It doesn’t get much more anti-women than that.

DP here. And I don't see this. They could pick a middle name that is from the mom's side. If it's helpful, DH has his father's first name. His middle name is his maternal uncle's (who died very young) first name. He goes by his middle name. DH is white, and these choices weren't cultural/traditional...but this kind of thing is completely doable. Interestingly, DH's first name is very common in the US, whereas his middle name is not and often bungled by Americans (would not be in the UK). He goes by it nonetheless.

If that’s equal, they can pick Hani as a middle name, right?

Also I understood in a previous post the same tradition has the fathers name as the middle. So the tradition cuts out the woman entirely. But that’s ok she’s just carrying and delivering and caring for the child, why should the fact that she dislikes the name matter?

Not exactly. Majority of Arabs simply don’t have middle names. Name is the following: “x, son of y, son of z, son of m, son of…. ,last name. With a girl it would be “x, daughter of y, son of z, son of m, son of…. Last name.” So lots of Arabs dunno where to put “son of y son of z of of m” so then they just put fathers name is middle name spot. But it’s not a middle name and the “son of” part can go on forever. Other Arabs living in the west don’t make this substitution and instead adopt the western practice of giving their child a middle name. And others just leave it blank. So basically there is no middle name tradition in the Arab world. Arabs living here are confused over what to put as the middle name. Some pick a middle name, some just substitute the fathers name (which is not a middle name) and others leave it blank. For our daughters we put my husbands name. Out of our friends, two families did what we did, 3 left it blank, and 5 families picked a middle name for their child.

Right...so the tradition is to only honor the fathers side. Since none of those son-ofs have anything to do with the mother/brood mare.

Look, you clearly have no capacity to understand or appreciate that people who come from more traditional cultures may want to respect some of the traditions, even if they have roots in patriarchy. Frankly, so do a ton of Western traditions. But you are coming across as extremely bigoted (and I'm not even Arab) by repeatedly dismissing every single poster who comes from a more traditional culture and is explaining why they might still consider this request.

So, seriously, you sound like an idiot dismissing out-of-hand every cultural tradition that doesn't make sense for you. Are you so dismissive of white ladies who decide to change their names when married? Or, if they don't change their own name, give their kids' their father's last name?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, as another compromise, what about a great grandfather's name or using the grandfather's middle name?

I also disagree with the sentiment that following a cultural and family tradition is anti-woman. It's not. Traditions can be meaningful to a family and create a sense of history and belonging for a child. They can also evolve over time, but I don't think it should be thrown out flippantly.

Not all traditions are anti-woman, but this one clearly is, given that it cuts the mother out of naming her own child, as well as ensuring her child can’t be named to honor anyone on her side of the family. It doesn’t get much more anti-women than that.

DP here. And I don't see this. They could pick a middle name that is from the mom's side. If it's helpful, DH has his father's first name. His middle name is his maternal uncle's (who died very young) first name. He goes by his middle name. DH is white, and these choices weren't cultural/traditional...but this kind of thing is completely doable. Interestingly, DH's first name is very common in the US, whereas his middle name is not and often bungled by Americans (would not be in the UK). He goes by it nonetheless.

If that’s equal, they can pick Hani as a middle name, right?

Also I understood in a previous post the same tradition has the fathers name as the middle. So the tradition cuts out the woman entirely. But that’s ok she’s just carrying and delivering and caring for the child, why should the fact that she dislikes the name matter?

Not exactly. Majority of Arabs simply don’t have middle names. Name is the following: “x, son of y, son of z, son of m, son of…. ,last name. With a girl it would be “x, daughter of y, son of z, son of m, son of…. Last name.” So lots of Arabs dunno where to put “son of y son of z of of m” so then they just put fathers name is middle name spot. But it’s not a middle name and the “son of” part can go on forever. Other Arabs living in the west don’t make this substitution and instead adopt the western practice of giving their child a middle name. And others just leave it blank. So basically there is no middle name tradition in the Arab world. Arabs living here are confused over what to put as the middle name. Some pick a middle name, some just substitute the fathers name (which is not a middle name) and others leave it blank. For our daughters we put my husbands name. Out of our friends, two families did what we did, 3 left it blank, and 5 families picked a middle name for their child.

Right...so the tradition is to only honor the fathers side. Since none of those son-ofs have anything to do with the mother/brood mare.

Look, you clearly have no capacity to understand or appreciate that people who come from more traditional cultures may want to respect some of the traditions, even if they have roots in patriarchy. Frankly, so do a ton of Western traditions. But you are coming across as extremely bigoted (and I'm not even Arab) by repeatedly dismissing every single poster who comes from a more traditional culture and is explaining why they might still consider this request.

So, seriously, you sound like an idiot dismissing out-of-hand every cultural tradition that doesn't make sense for you. Are you so dismissive of white ladies who decide to change their names when married? Or, if they don't change their own name, give their kids' their father's last name?

I’m dismissing people saying that a name the mother *does not like* has more value than her preferences because of a tradition that denies her input in the child’s name, and I’m equally dismissing people saying that isn’t gendered. Traditions with roots in the patriarchy are ubiquitous, and if the mother is happy with the name and wants to give it to her child, that’s pretty value neutral. But I know plenty of women who didn’t change their name because their husbands had last name that included things like “slut” and “ho” because they didn’t like the name and didn’t want to pass that on to their children. No one clutched their pearls about the grave insult to the in-laws.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, as another compromise, what about a great grandfather's name or using the grandfather's middle name?

I also disagree with the sentiment that following a cultural and family tradition is anti-woman. It's not. Traditions can be meaningful to a family and create a sense of history and belonging for a child. They can also evolve over time, but I don't think it should be thrown out flippantly.

Not all traditions are anti-woman, but this one clearly is, given that it cuts the mother out of naming her own child, as well as ensuring her child can’t be named to honor anyone on her side of the family. It doesn’t get much more anti-women than that.

DP here. And I don't see this. They could pick a middle name that is from the mom's side. If it's helpful, DH has his father's first name. His middle name is his maternal uncle's (who died very young) first name. He goes by his middle name. DH is white, and these choices weren't cultural/traditional...but this kind of thing is completely doable. Interestingly, DH's first name is very common in the US, whereas his middle name is not and often bungled by Americans (would not be in the UK). He goes by it nonetheless.

If that’s equal, they can pick Hani as a middle name, right?

Also I understood in a previous post the same tradition has the fathers name as the middle. So the tradition cuts out the woman entirely. But that’s ok she’s just carrying and delivering and caring for the child, why should the fact that she dislikes the name matter?

Not exactly. Majority of Arabs simply don’t have middle names. Name is the following: “x, son of y, son of z, son of m, son of…. ,last name. With a girl it would be “x, daughter of y, son of z, son of m, son of…. Last name.” So lots of Arabs dunno where to put “son of y son of z of of m” so then they just put fathers name is middle name spot. But it’s not a middle name and the “son of” part can go on forever. Other Arabs living in the west don’t make this substitution and instead adopt the western practice of giving their child a middle name. And others just leave it blank. So basically there is no middle name tradition in the Arab world. Arabs living here are confused over what to put as the middle name. Some pick a middle name, some just substitute the fathers name (which is not a middle name) and others leave it blank. For our daughters we put my husbands name. Out of our friends, two families did what we did, 3 left it blank, and 5 families picked a middle name for their child.

Right...so the tradition is to only honor the fathers side. Since none of those son-ofs have anything to do with the mother/brood mare.

Look, you clearly have no capacity to understand or appreciate that people who come from more traditional cultures may want to respect some of the traditions, even if they have roots in patriarchy. Frankly, so do a ton of Western traditions. But you are coming across as extremely bigoted (and I'm not even Arab) by repeatedly dismissing every single poster who comes from a more traditional culture and is explaining why they might still consider this request.

So, seriously, you sound like an idiot dismissing out-of-hand every cultural tradition that doesn't make sense for you. Are you so dismissive of white ladies who decide to change their names when married? Or, if they don't change their own name, give their kids' their father's last name?

Thank you PP. Arab poster here. Yep I didn’t change my last name Not our tradition lol (though you will find in Lebanon and Egypt some woman change their last name). Idea is that you don’t “belong” to your husband’s family when u get married. You are still part of your own family and proudly so (remember when I said that Arab names are all about lineage so changing your name just doesn’t make sense). Your identity is still separate. That being said I don’t consider any of my non-Arab friends who change their last names to be “oppressed” in any way. Yes the tradition is rooted in patriarchy (so is the tradition of your father giving you away in the wedding… we don’t do that) but so many traditions are rooted in patriarchy and yet we follow them anyways because well, that’s the way it’s always been. I will outright reject some traditions that are patriarchal and actually do harm. But with things such as names it’s nice to do something we have always done so I just shrug and move on. Come to think about it, why do kids take the husband’s last name? This is in both middle eastern and western cultures. That’s patriarchal too. I know in some latino cultures they also use the mother's last name which is great. Does that make latino culture as a whole less patriarchal? Probably not Anyhow I obviously think OP shouldn’t be forced to pick a name she doesn’t want. But in the end, like I said before, OP’s quarrel is really with her husband and not her in laws. If you and your spouse are on the same page then you can defy whatever tradition you want I realize OP hasn’t commented at all. Hopefully she has moved on and this is resolved!

[Anonymous]

In a marriage if something means more to one person, then why not honor it? We tend to operate that way.

My DH was set on a using a family name that I did not love and that I thought would be a sure-bet for teasing. I am so glad that I went with it. I love the name now because it is so my son. My DS is in college and has not ever had any teasing beyond a remark of his name. People always remember it too because it's easy and is unusual (not in top 1000 names). My DH and his family are so grateful, and I do think he is considered a favorite of the family. DH let me pick the next name.

I like Hani. GL!

[Anonymous]

PP here to add that it wasn't a tradition in our instance, but you never know what your son might later think about it.

[Anonymous]

PP here to add again (sorry i'm sick and fuzzy headed) that the name DH wanted for DS was maternal grandpa. It also didn't come up before marriage/kids, even though he wanted to use it long before he ever met me. Honestly, though, would you have broken up with him if you had known? You would have just had longer to worry about it.

[Anonymous]

I would reframe this as an Arabic name and an American name.

One is the official middle name and the other is the official first name. You both agree to use the respective name when you’re in each country. In the US, Hani Nathaniel becomes Nate and when he’s in the Middle East he’s Hani. The order swaps for the next kid.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Overwhelmed by all of the responses! These pregnancy hormones are no joke. Felt like I was in the worst situation the other day (triggered by a family member saying I had no choice in the matter). I’m going to take my time to think about all of this. This may mean holding off telling the family it’s a boy (which I hate I can’t share but it’ll save me from more unnecessary comments from them). Maybe I’m too emotional right now so I will give it some time

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Overwhelmed by all of the responses! These pregnancy hormones are no joke. Felt like I was in the worst situation the other day (triggered by a family member saying I had no choice in the matter). I’m going to take my time to think about all of this. This may mean holding off telling the family it’s a boy (which I hate I can’t share but it’ll save me from more unnecessary comments from them). Maybe I’m too emotional right now so I will give it some time

Good luck OP. Take your time— babies are notoriously uncooperative at some ultrasounds!

Be wary of anyone who tells you you “have no choice”. This is your baby. You are living in a country where his name can to be legally registered without your signature. You have a choice.

[Anonymous]

+1 to the PP above — don’t let anyone tell you that you have no say here. Custom, tradition, and family expectations don’t change the fact that you and you alone are this baby’s mother. Your in-laws had the opportunity to name their own babies whatever they wanted, and the fact that they chose names in line with traditional expectations doesn’t mean that you have to follow suit if you don’t want to.

[Anonymous]

I like Hani. Call him Johnny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Overwhelmed by all of the responses! These pregnancy hormones are no joke. Felt like I was in the worst situation the other day (triggered by a family member saying I had no choice in the matter). I’m going to take my time to think about all of this. This may mean holding off telling the family it’s a boy (which I hate I can’t share but it’ll save me from more unnecessary comments from them). Maybe I’m too emotional right now so I will give it some time

Arab PP here. OP you always have a choice! Don’t let anyone tell you that you don’t. That’s just rude of them to say. By the way I never told my in laws the sex of the baby Less involvement that way lol. Take a break from this and give it time like you said. When you are ready discuss it with your husband. See what his perspective is and come up with something you can mutually agree on. Definitely don’t involve your in laws in this discussion! Arab and Middle Eastern families can be difficult to deal with, even for us who are Arab! 😀

[Anonymous]

OP it's ok. This is YOUR child. He is here because God decided you are the best mom for him.
His name is a decision made by your husband and you- no one else.
Name him what you think his name should be. Maybe a family name, maybe not.
For each of my children I had a mix on their own first name and a family name as a middle name.
Also, there may be other family traditions that you don't know about yet. You may or may not follow them. That's your decision too.
This is a great time of life OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would reframe this as an Arabic name and an American name.

One is the official middle name and the other is the official first name. You both agree to use the respective name when you’re in each country. In the US, Hani Nathaniel becomes Nate and when he’s in the Middle East he’s Hani. The order swaps for the next kid.

This is a good idea. The ILs dont have to know what is officially on the birth certificate ("Middle Name" Hani) or how you register him at school. Baby can go by Hani "Middle Name" in family circles for the time being and in any cultural or religious ceremonies. Hani can be told to use his American real first name when he enters preschool. Sounds complicated? Yes! But it seems like the easiest way.