Reply to Iman preached anti-gay message in Orlando a few weeks ago

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous]
Not that PP, but I think her point was that you can find stronger scriptural support in Islam than in Christianity. The Quran has several passages condemning homosexuality, and several passages of Hadith prescribe death for homosexuals. As you know, the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, and the Hadith are supposed to be reliable although there's debate about some of them.

You won't find any recorded sayings by Jesus on homosexuality, let alone calling for death for homosexuals. For condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament you have to go to Paul's letters, and Paul does not call for death. In any case many mainstream Christians regard Paul's letters as pastoral, and very rooted in his own time and culture, and do not give them the universal and timeless weight they give to Jesus' sayings. For the death penalty, you have to look on the Old Testament--but PP is absolutely right that Jesus clearly and specifically denied and banned humans' ability to make judgements, particularly judgements involving death, that are God's to make. FWIW, I've had long debates on the religious forum with a fundie who opposes homosexuality. These are the reasons many Protestant churches find it OK to allow gay marriage and even gay pastors.

So, if you're a Christian or Muslim who is mentally ill (as I believe the Orlando shooter will be shown to be) or even sane, you can find scriptural support in the Quran for disapproval although not for killing homosexuals. Only fringe Christians think it's OK to kill homosexuals, also I didn't hear that Cruz freak show citing actual Bible passages.

Signed, a liberal who thinks we need to acknowledge these things [/quote]

If you actually study what purports to be "scriptural support in Islam" for killing homosexuals, you will find that it is not as clear as you seem to believe and, in fact even relies upon the same Old Testament story of Sodom that homophobic Christians often cite. While the Quran is believed to be the word of God, the exact meaning of those words is heavily debated. God did not speak very plainly -- something of which anyone who attempts to read the Quran quickly becomes painfully aware.

Obviously, anyone seeking to find justification for killing gays can find it Islam, just as they can in Christianity. Indeed, here are examples of two Baptist preachers who praised the Orlando killings:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/roger-jimenez-steven-anderson-pastors-praise-orlando

"Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?" Jimenez said in a sermon originally posted on YouTube. "Um no, I think that’s great! I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight."

Tempe, Arizona preacher Steven Anderson also rushed to praise the "good news" that “there are 50 less pedophiles in this world."

So, of course, most people will call these two preachers fringe elements. But, most Muslims will call ISIS a fringe group -- one that mostly targets other Muslims.

Signed, a liberal who thinks other liberals are often misinformed about Islam.
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the Old Testament predates Jesus and Christianity altogether. Jesus said no more killings or stonings or judgments. there is no support in Christianity for reverting back to any Old Testament forms of judgement and punishment like stoning.  And frankly, I dont even know if mosaic law itself said to kill homosexuals. i doubt it. you just cannot say with any logic that christianity supports that. it is nowhere in the entire new testament. it only says do not be homosexual, and do not judge or kill. that is it.
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There is no need to explain that to me. You need to explain it to all the self-described Christians -- including many ministers -- who find justifications in Christianity for their homophobia.

This is something I've always tried to point out. What one person claims Christianity says, another person will completely contradict. Which one speaks for Christians? The same is true in Islam. Sure, you can find Muslims who believe terrible things. You can also find Muslims who believe those things are anti-Islamic. Just as in Christianity we don't allow the extremists to be representative of the religion, we shouldn't do that for Islam either. Ironically, both Muslim extremists and Islamophobes have a mutual interest in making the radicals be the religion's representatives.
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We're straying from PP's original point, which is that there's much greater scriptural support for anti-gay bigotry in the Quran, which further is seen as the literal word of God, than in Christianity. You can bring up the small minority of whack jobs all you like, but this scriptural comparison is hard to refute.

One of my Muslim friends is very liberal, but if you let her get started on gays it's fairly awful to hear. So I never let the conversation go there.

I've said before that Islam needs a Reformation. The Hadith, for example the ones calling for killing gays, would be a good place to start. You chose to interpret this as saying *I* want to lead this reformation, and trashed and mocked me. For the record, I never said that, and your response seemed like another deflection. Also, there are Muslims who want to do the job. For example, Irshad Manji has a lot to say about Islam and gays--for various reasons (not the least that she's a woman) she wouldn't be a good leader, but voices like hers need to be heard.

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