Advice on school options for violent child

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh please. No one is justifying or excusing aggressive or even violent behavior and I think you are a pretty horrible person to suggest that.

They are trying to draw a contrast between a child who actively hits, bites or otherwise attacks others for the fun of it and a child who is reacting because he might be scared. Of course he needs to learn how to react properly- as does a toddler!! - but for kids with these kinds of disabilities it may take longer for them to mature and until then it's important for the adults around them to give them some extra support.

I really wish you would drop it PP. I think there's only one of you here.

Let me add that I am a victim of a violent crime and I would never ever describe what OP's child did as violent.

How would you describeit if your third grade child was the person who was bitten at school? I am guessing violence would definitely be part of your assessment of the situation.

[Anonymous]

Doubtful that the curriculum at any of the SN schools will be on the same level as AAP. Tour the schools yourself OP. We toured the Model Asperger's Program at Ivymount and was not impressed especially for Math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, I work at a school with a Comprehensive Services Site (ED center) and a lot of 2e kids do really well with this placement. They have access to our full time psychologist and social worker just for the CSS, they get the small class sizes and extra support with behavior and managing emotions, and they also still get Level 3 AAP pull outs and access to AAP instruction in mainstream classes when appropriate. All of our CSS teachers are teamed with a grade level team so their instruction follows the same planning and pacing of mainstream homeroom teachers. A majority of our upper grade students mainstream for one or more subjects. And we have had students who were fully mainstreamed by 6th grade (buy who still had access to additional behavioral, social, and emotional supports as needed through the CSS).

I'm not saying this is the right placement for OP's child, but I just wanted to say that a CSS placement can be a great fit for many 2e kids who need lots of support and small class sizes but who also need AAP enrichment.

OP, best of luck to you. I feel for you and your child and hope you can find the best combo of meds and most supportive placement for your child!

But aren't the ED classes set up like K-3, 4-5 etc.? If a child can't be mainstreamed into the general ed class, then he is sitting through lessons for K kids, 1st grade kids, etc. That sounds incredibly tedious for a child with GOOD frustration tolerance, let alone a kid with emotional issues. Also, there aren't any ED centers that are also AAP centers, so when a gifted ED-center child is mainstreamed into the general ed class, the general ed class material is not going to be at the right level. How are they accessing "AAP instruction"?
An occasional group pullout with the AART can not be equivalent to a full time gifted education.

At our CSS site, we generally have one teacher for each grade level. An exception this year is a combined 5-6 class but that's because there is only 1 child in one grade level. Because the class sizes are so small, the instruction and activities are much more individualized, so students who need enrichment can follow the enrichment parts of the mathematics pacing guide, for example.

In my experience, sometimes you have to prioritize one special need over another, and find the placement that best suits an individual child. I've worked with numerous kids who qualified for Level 4 services who really thrived in the CSS because they needed a much smaller student-teacher ratio and they needed more support and less stimulation firing the school day. One student, for instance, was the top student in 6th grade advanced math and did amazing STEM projects in STEM and science classes, all mainstream. But he was much more successful with writing in his CSS classroom, where he could step out for a breather as needed, go to the resource room, or just get more encouragement from a 3-1 student to adult ratio. It was a good combination of support when needed and enrichment when needed. YMMV. I'm not saying it's the best placement for everyone, but it can be perfect for some.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Larrie Ellen Randall is an advocate in the FCPS area.

OP here, thank you. I will look her up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, I work at a school with a Comprehensive Services Site (ED center) and a lot of 2e kids do really well with this placement. They have access to our full time psychologist and social worker just for the CSS, they get the small class sizes and extra support with behavior and managing emotions, and they also still get Level 3 AAP pull outs and access to AAP instruction in mainstream classes when appropriate. All of our CSS teachers are teamed with a grade level team so their instruction follows the same planning and pacing of mainstream homeroom teachers. A majority of our upper grade students mainstream for one or more subjects. And we have had students who were fully mainstreamed by 6th grade (buy who still had access to additional behavioral, social, and emotional supports as needed through the CSS).

I'm not saying this is the right placement for OP's child, but I just wanted to say that a CSS placement can be a great fit for many 2e kids who need lots of support and small class sizes but who also need AAP enrichment.

OP, best of luck to you. I feel for you and your child and hope you can find the best combo of meds and most supportive placement for your child!

But aren't the ED classes set up like K-3, 4-5 etc.? If a child can't be mainstreamed into the general ed class, then he is sitting through lessons for K kids, 1st grade kids, etc. That sounds incredibly tedious for a child with GOOD frustration tolerance, let alone a kid with emotional issues. Also, there aren't any ED centers that are also AAP centers, so when a gifted ED-center child is mainstreamed into the general ed class, the general ed class material is not going to be at the right level. How are they accessing "AAP instruction"?
An occasional group pullout with the AART can not be equivalent to a full time gifted education.

At our CSS site, we generally have one teacher for each grade level. An exception this year is a combined 5-6 class but that's because there is only 1 child in one grade level. Because the class sizes are so small, the instruction and activities are much more individualized, so students who need enrichment can follow the enrichment parts of the mathematics pacing guide, for example.

In my experience, sometimes you have to prioritize one special need over another, and find the placement that best suits an individual child. I've worked with numerous kids who qualified for Level 4 services who really thrived in the CSS because they needed a much smaller student-teacher ratio and they needed more support and less stimulation firing the school day. One student, for instance, was the top student in 6th grade advanced math and did amazing STEM projects in STEM and science classes, all mainstream. But he was much more successful with writing in his CSS classroom, where he could step out for a breather as needed, go to the resource room, or just get more encouragement from a 3-1 student to adult ratio. It was a good combination of support when needed and enrichment when needed. YMMV. I'm not saying it's the best placement for everyone, but it can be perfect for some.

My child was in a CSS/ED center in FCPS, and the set up was usually a K-2 or K-3 class with one teacher and one aide, a 4-5 class, or a 4-6 class. So multiple grades for one teacher. Are you saying at your center that each ED special ed class for each grade has its own teacher? So a K class of ED-center kids only with 1 teacher, a 1st grade class of ED kids only with a teacher, etc?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I mean this in the nicest way-Please stop calling your child violent. Yes, he's reacting aggressively because of stress or anxiety or whatever the reason may be but that's not the same at all as a child who willfully hits others at random because it's fun or because he wants to feel in control like a bully.

You should also stop thinking of him as having a mental illness in the traditional sense. He has neurodevelopmental disorders that impact how he thinks so the world around him is confusing and he's reacting physically because this is the only way he knows how.

You mentioned that after he was told he would miss a big school event he lashed out even more. This seems like a clear sign that he's angry with what's been going on at the school or himself and that cannot feel good.

OP here. Thank you. My wording wasn't best. He isn't violent most of the time but sometimes I do think he does some actions to be mean when he doesn't get his way. For example, tonight, his little brother was talking and he wanted him to stop so he pinched him hard. Right in front of his father. His psychologist is saying the same thing about him having a neurodevelopmental disorder and I am anxious for his psychiatric appointment on Thursday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In looking at the function of the behavior could it be that the AAP center is causing him huge anxiety due to the increased workload and he's acting out because he wants to leave? He may not even know it himself but is it possible that because of his ADHD and other issues he's not able to do the work he knows he's capable of doing and feels terrible about himself and is taking it out on others? Or is so stressed out that every little issue becomes overblown?

If it turns out your child does need a more restrictive environment I would urge you to consider it but in my opinion it's too soon without figuring out why he's acting this way since it doesn't sound like it was this bad the previous 2 years.

It's possible he may have some other type of disorder you need to deal with and it's better for him to be in a new setting. But at this point it's just as possible , I think, that it has to do with something else completely and that you can help him through this without having to resort to a SN school or a self-contained classroom.

OP here. Thank you for your advice. Good points. I do wonder about the work, too, but his actions are so reactive that I fear it doesn't matter the setting and if he is accidentally bumped in another school or setting he will have the same reaction. I had his parent teacher conference today and academically he is fine except for writing. I think he might be dyslexic and am talking to his doctors about it. He has a lot of the symptoms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I could have written this post. Hang in there. It will get better.

My DS with ADHD/HFA enrolled in the AAP center for 3rd grade. We had met with the teachers and asked a lot of questions before sending him, and were assured that they could handle kids like him. However, the woman who would have been his teacher left over the summer and we were not informed of the change. She was replaced by a 1st year teacher who had no special ed experience.

When we saw the class assignments posted on the front door of the school prior to the first day, we didn't recognize the teacher's name and wondered what had happened. Did the teacher we talked to in the Spring get married over the summer and change her name? We had no idea that he was now assigned to someone who had only done student teaching. By that point, DS was so excited to go to the center, that we sent him. He did fine for the first month or so, but then we started to get phone calls and emails that his behavior was becoming a problem. He has an IEP, but in reality he was receiving very little special ed support in the classroom and his anxiety was causing him to act out. The only way the inexperienced teacher could deal with him was send him to the principal. In meetings, it was clear that staff could/would not devote the special ed resources he needed. It was clear that they thought an AAP kid should only need minimal organizational help or preferential seating. (This center is an overcrowded Title I school).

His bus driver had also mentioned to me that DS's teachers were making his behavior situation worse by getting in his face all the time and publicly shaming him. This angered me, but after I learned that he was being secluded in a small, windowless room away from his classmates for much of the day, I scheduled an appointment with a child psychiatrist. The psychiatrist told me to get him out of the AAP center as soon as possible. The next day, we put him back at his base school - where everyone was wonderful, welcoming, and very supportive.

He is now doing much better in general ed at the base school. If we had kept him at the AAP center, I'm sure they would have eventually pushed for placement in an emotionally disturbed school. However, his outbursts stemmed from frustration caused by lack of special ed services that he should have been receiving. They just didn't want to deal with a 2E kid.

If your son was not violent before going to the AAP center, he may be better off at the base school. Anxiety may be what's causing him to act out. Talk to staff there and see what they recommend. Good luck to you. I know what you're going through is torture.

OP here. My heart breaks for you too. What an awful experience you had! I commend you for standing up for him and getting him back to the base school. We are weighing that option, too. However, some of his behaviors are not new and he was reactive there, too. However, he had a great relationship with the IEP teacher last year and I think that helped a lot. He has a wonderful IEP teacher this year, but I don't feel they click. I hope your DS is doing well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP here. Thank you for your advice. Good points. I do wonder about the work, too, but his actions are so reactive that I fear it doesn't matter the setting and if he is accidentally bumped in another school or setting he will have the same reaction. I had his parent teacher conference today and academically he is fine except for writing. I think he might be dyslexic and am talking to his doctors about it. He has a lot of the symptoms.

I'm so sorry it has gotten to this point, OP. I hope you can find him a nice nurturing environment where he feels more comfortable and less reactive. It's a cycle and it's hard to break. He acts out so he's suspended, so he gets angrier for that and acts out again and then gets suspended again. Repeat. I think you said both you and your husband both work but can you take some time off and pull your son out of school for a little while to try to give him some space and time away from the school? I know a middle school mom who had to do this for her child recently and she said it helped enormously. She did end up changing her child's placement after those few weeks but it gave the child some time to clear his mind and become calm and happy again.

How is your son at home? Is he very reactive there as well?

[Anonymous]

Re:terminology. I would call it aggression (possibly in part due to sensory issues), not violence, but I get what OP is saying.

OP how did the visit with the psychiatrist go? Has a functional behavior assessment been conducted? If it has already been done by the school and didn't help, then hire a consultant (like Weiss or someone else) to do it. Based on the FBA you might find things like...

-DC needs more time in small group learning settings/more pull-out services

-DC falls apart most when a certain tone is used or certain other sensory things are present-maybe on days with firedrills. Maybe the noise at PE causes sensory overload and it carries over the rest of the day or maybe he needs go to words to use. Even if a child is very high functioning, they can still be at loss language wise when stressed.

-Maybe DC needs a calm down corner with sensory stuff (could be a corner used for other things of course and there could be a box of sensory items)

-Is it possible to do half a day or week mainstream and the other half at the special center to see how it goes?

Your DC is signaling he is stressed and you know this. It's painful to know your child is struggling and impacting other children through aggressive behavior or taking away teacher time. This is why I would go full force with trying anything to nip this. You already saw the doctor. Are meds being changed? I would get a behavior analysis pronto. I would call the best private autism and behavior experts and beg them to call you with any cancellations if they can't see you ASAP even if you have to pull your child mid day at the last minute.

You'll get through this OP and things can get better. It's great you are so dedicated and you can see both sides.

[Anonymous]

She
-overbills (every minute on her cell even when talking about her family life) & no notice of going over retainer
- doesn't follow through on things like talking to Ivymount - they recc'd her to us
-will say / recommend things at IEP mtgs that are against your wishes/prior conversations of goals

uggg horrible experience!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:She
-overbills (every minute on her cell even when talking about her family life) & no notice of going over retainer
- doesn't follow through on things like talking to Ivymount - they recc'd her to us
-will say / recommend things at IEP mtgs that are against your wishes/prior conversations of goals

uggg horrible experience!

Who?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re:terminology. I would call it aggression (possibly in part due to sensory issues), not violence, but I get what OP is saying.

Then you would be incorrect. Violence is the physical manifestation of aggression. The behavior OP has described is physical and occurs across environments. There is clearly an emotional regulation issue.

I doubt the targets of his actions would see them as just 'aggressive'.

[Anonymous]

Please stop it already. You keep weighing in on this thread but you keep saying the same thing. If you have a new point to make, by all means make it but otherwise please calm yourself down and go away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please stop it already. You keep weighing in on this thread but you keep saying the same thing. If you have a new point to make, by all means make it but otherwise please calm yourself down and go away.

I'm not the person you're responding to but I agree with her. I'm not sure why this has touched such a nerve with you and I don't know why you are so invested in controlling the discussion. It appears the two sides to this discussion are those who are downplaying the seriousness of the behavior by calling it merely 'aggressive' and explaining it as 'sensory issues' or 'he was terrified' or 'context'. There are others (me included) who are believe it is more serious because, from OP's posts, these behaviors occur across environments, are not new and she sometimes thinks he does it to be mean. The hard pinch he gave to his sibling is atypical behavior for a third grader. This child needs interventions and not just a change in environment or teacher. OP is right to be concerned and actively seeking
assistance.

He isn't violent most of the time but sometimes I do think he does some actions to be mean when he doesn't get his way. For example, tonight, his little brother was talking and he wanted him to stop so he pinched him hard. Right in front of his father.