Parents of middle school girls, please...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

I'm the original PP on this post. I guess I don't understand what your and other posters are advocating: booty shorts on whomever wants to wear them? You don't show up to your first day of work in flip flops and cutoff shorts (unless you're working at the beach), so why should dressing for school be any different?

Furthermore, even if a child isn't actively victimized, what merit is there in exposing your flesh? By no means am I a prude, but whenever I see a girl or woman wearing shorts that literally expose their buttcheeks, I'm wondering what the motivation is there. Adding two inches to them to the hem isn't "bowing to opressive patriarchal forces," it's presenting oneself decently.

What am I advocating is that you wear the clothes that you want to wear and find appropriate, and let other people do the same. If somebody wears clothes to school that violate the dress code, that's their concern and the school's concern, not yours.

And if you want to know why a girl/woman wears shorts you find too short, you should ask her. Maybe she'll answer your question. Maybe she'll tell you it's none of your business.

Of course it's none of my business, but I struggle to understand how someone would be comfortable like that. School is an environment for learning - it's not a party or a time to "hang out." I believe students and teachers should dress accordingly.

I struggle to understand how people are comfortable in lots of different outfits, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that they are. Only the one wearing the clothes makes much sense to me to decide what clothes are worn. Yes, school is an environment for learning. And, like all other things, I think people are likely to do best when they're as comfortable as possible within the constraints of the rules. Whatever permitted clothing my child feels comfortable, happy, and confident in is fine by me. She mixes it up pretty frequently depending on the day, her schedule, and her mood. Not sure how someone else's clothing should matter to what a student does at school...and if my child's clothing causes her a distraction that's a matter for me, her, and her teacher to sort out.

No matter what? I don't understand this. I thought our job as adults is to guide our children, even if it means imposing rules that they don't like if it's in their best interest. And, yes, I think prohibiting booty shorts for tween girls is in their best interest.

I think you're being unrealistically idealistic. If a boy wore a shirt to school featuring a graphic of a woman in a string bikini, I would think (a) that it's sexist and (b) that it's distracting to other students. What do you think?

We have a different idea of what is in our child's best interest, that's all. Once they are past the toddler/preschool stage, I think it's their right to choose their clothing unless there's a safety issue. I absolutely give them the info about society having an idea of what clothes are appropriate for what places or activities, and why, and the implications of choosing to go against that. I think usually parents have greater wisdom and understanding of the world due to their life experience, and they should absolutely share that with their kids for their benefit so the kids are making informed choices. What I don't do, though, is insist they conform to societal standards on their clothing choice other than to follow rules where dress codes exist. I see no value in it, no necessity in it, and no moral imperative in it, whereas I do see potential harm in doing so.

A graphic of someone else, I might find sexist depending. I would probably think it was sexist if someone of any gender showed up wearing a graphic of someone else dressed in a stereotypical and revealing way. But I wouldn't find anything wrong with an individual person deciding to dress themselves any way they want...because that's a choice made only for them and doesn't seem to me to risk objectifying anyone like a shirt graphic of someone else might.

Okay. I admire how thoroughly you've examined your approach to parenting, but we obviously disagree. Agree to disagree! Something DCUM (and DC in general) would benefit from.

Sounds good to me, thanks for the civil (and interesting) discussion.

Wow, a peaceful conclusion on DCUM? We should go handle the conflict in Syria - I think we're qualified.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

Ok, sure, I can accept that as a valid general idea. But I'm honestly asking you not just for that description of a society, but also for a better understanding of HOW someone else's clothing choices are a problem for me in any way, or mine for them. I do not get that, but if I'm missing something obvious I would at least like to consider the idea to better inform my stance if nothing else. Can you explain to me HOW someone else's clothing impacts another person, or WHY I should care at all what anyone else wears?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

But that doesn't answer the questions. In general, how do my clothing choices harm you, and how do your clothing choices harm me? Obviously there are exceptions, but in general.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

But that doesn't answer the questions. In general, how do my clothing choices harm you, and how do your clothing choices harm me? Obviously there are exceptions, but in general.

As adults, maybe they don't. But I do have a problem with my 12 year old son seeing body parts that our family values as being kept private put on display at his public school. I have no problem with sex and sexuality, but there are places where that needs to not be brought to the forefront, and school is one of those places for children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

Ok, sure, I can accept that as a valid general idea. But I'm honestly asking you not just for that description of a society, but also for a better understanding of HOW someone else's clothing choices are a problem for me in any way, or mine for them. I do not get that, but if I'm missing something obvious I would at least like to consider the idea to better inform my stance if nothing else. Can you explain to me HOW someone else's clothing impacts another person, or WHY I should care at all what anyone else wears?

For realz? Okay. I will use a work analogy.

If a man has a large penis (stay with me) and he chooses to wear extremely tight workout tights in a space he shares with me for 8 hours a day, that affects me. I would probably feel uncomfortable. It would be an uncomfortable subject to discuss, and the onus would be on me to bring it up - obviously, he is okay with his wardrobe choice, so I'd be the one stirring the pot. This could affect our relationship negatively - he could come to see me as a nag, or a prude, or as closed-minded. He might start gossiping about me, or undermining me on the job. It could go so many ways. But it all would have been prevented if, in the morning when choosing his clothes, he said to himself 'You know, I think I look great in these tights, and they are oh so comfortable. But I have a huge d*ck, and you can see the outline of the whole honking thing when I wear these tights - because I work in close proximity with someone who may not be comfortable seeing me in these, maybe I will choose pants that don't expose the outline of my genitalia.' It's courteous.

Young girls and boys may love certain articles of clothing, but that clothing may not be appropriate for all environments. If we are to encourage learning and healthy socialization at school, I don't think it's too much to expect that students, teachers, and anyone else in the school environment dresses in an appropriately sober manner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

But that doesn't answer the questions. In general, how do my clothing choices harm you, and how do your clothing choices harm me? Obviously there are exceptions, but in general.

As adults, maybe they don't. But I do have a problem with my 12 year old son seeing body parts that our family values as being kept private put on display at his public school. I have no problem with sex and sexuality, but there are places where that needs to not be brought to the forefront, and school is one of those places for children.

Ah. OK. I'm 17:14, the poster with a similar question not the one whose quote you replied to. Thanks for the explanation. I guess my disconnect was that I don't see bodies as particularly private or inherently sexual, which is why that objection didn't occur to me. I disagree with you but see how you could consider that a valid and very important point of view. That has given me an interesting angle to consider.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

But that doesn't answer the questions. In general, how do my clothing choices harm you, and how do your clothing choices harm me? Obviously there are exceptions, but in general.

As a teacher, I cannot be alone in a classroom with a student without the door wide open and other people clearly around. There are too many crazy situations that have happened where people have erroneously lost their reputations and jobs. By requesting that students cover up parts that society largely says should be covered, we educators have a layer of worry off of our plates. Being around students who are not following this rule makes me uncomfortable and prevents me from supporting them to the best of my ability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

Ok, sure, I can accept that as a valid general idea. But I'm honestly asking you not just for that description of a society, but also for a better understanding of HOW someone else's clothing choices are a problem for me in any way, or mine for them. I do not get that, but if I'm missing something obvious I would at least like to consider the idea to better inform my stance if nothing else. Can you explain to me HOW someone else's clothing impacts another person, or WHY I should care at all what anyone else wears?

For realz? Okay. I will use a work analogy.

If a man has a large penis (stay with me) and he chooses to wear extremely tight workout tights in a space he shares with me for 8 hours a day, that affects me. I would probably feel uncomfortable. It would be an uncomfortable subject to discuss, and the onus would be on me to bring it up - obviously, he is okay with his wardrobe choice, so I'd be the one stirring the pot. This could affect our relationship negatively - he could come to see me as a nag, or a prude, or as closed-minded. He might start gossiping about me, or undermining me on the job. It could go so many ways. But it all would have been prevented if, in the morning when choosing his clothes, he said to himself 'You know, I think I look great in these tights, and they are oh so comfortable. But I have a huge d*ck, and you can see the outline of the whole honking thing when I wear these tights - because I work in close proximity with someone who may not be comfortable seeing me in these, maybe I will choose pants that don't expose the outline of my genitalia.' It's courteous.

Young girls and boys may love certain articles of clothing, but that clothing may not be appropriate for all environments. If we are to encourage learning and healthy socialization at school, I don't think it's too much to expect that students, teachers, and anyone else in the school environment dresses in an appropriately sober manner.

^dress

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

Ok, sure, I can accept that as a valid general idea. But I'm honestly asking you not just for that description of a society, but also for a better understanding of HOW someone else's clothing choices are a problem for me in any way, or mine for them. I do not get that, but if I'm missing something obvious I would at least like to consider the idea to better inform my stance if nothing else. Can you explain to me HOW someone else's clothing impacts another person, or WHY I should care at all what anyone else wears?

For realz? Okay. I will use a work analogy.

If a man has a large penis (stay with me) and he chooses to wear extremely tight workout tights in a space he shares with me for 8 hours a day, that affects me. I would probably feel uncomfortable. It would be an uncomfortable subject to discuss, and the onus would be on me to bring it up - obviously, he is okay with his wardrobe choice, so I'd be the one stirring the pot. This could affect our relationship negatively - he could come to see me as a nag, or a prude, or as closed-minded. He might start gossiping about me, or undermining me on the job. It could go so many ways. But it all would have been prevented if, in the morning when choosing his clothes, he said to himself 'You know, I think I look great in these tights, and they are oh so comfortable. But I have a huge d*ck, and you can see the outline of the whole honking thing when I wear these tights - because I work in close proximity with someone who may not be comfortable seeing me in these, maybe I will choose pants that don't expose the outline of my genitalia.' It's courteous.

Young girls and boys may love certain articles of clothing, but that clothing may not be appropriate for all environments. If we are to encourage learning and healthy socialization at school, I don't think it's too much to expect that students, teachers, and anyone else in the school environment dresses in an appropriately sober manner.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Your perspective is very different from mine and thus very interesting to consider. That's not something that would make me uncomfortable or bother me in any way, and I'm not completely sure why it would for you, but of course my standards are not universal and it would be ideal if no one was made uncomfortable by someone else's actions. Thus, while philosophically I don't think clothing matters and believe everyone should be free to wear exactly what they wish with no problems or judgement, I can understand and concede the practical necessity for dress codes.

I think our difference of opinion stems from exactly how we think about people's bodies, privacy, and sexuality... your perspective seems quite traditional in our society whereas mine is anything but. I do not have the right to tell you what should or should not make you uncomfortable, so obviously the fact that a coworker in such an outfit would make you uncomfortable is in fact a problem. I appreciate the chance to understand your perspective, and I can see that this is a very complicated issue on which we're unlikely to agree completely. Thanks for the discussion!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

But that doesn't answer the questions. In general, how do my clothing choices harm you, and how do your clothing choices harm me? Obviously there are exceptions, but in general.

As a teacher, I cannot be alone in a classroom with a student without the door wide open and other people clearly around. There are too many crazy situations that have happened where people have erroneously lost their reputations and jobs. By requesting that students cover up parts that society largely says should be covered, we educators have a layer of worry off of our plates. Being around students who are not following this rule makes me uncomfortable and prevents me from supporting them to the best of my ability.

+1

I teach middle school and ask building services to keep my room chilly for this reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

But that doesn't answer the questions. In general, how do my clothing choices harm you, and how do your clothing choices harm me? Obviously there are exceptions, but in general.

As a teacher, I cannot be alone in a classroom with a student without the door wide open and other people clearly around. There are too many crazy situations that have happened where people have erroneously lost their reputations and jobs. By requesting that students cover up parts that society largely says should be covered, we educators have a layer of worry off of our plates. Being around students who are not following this rule makes me uncomfortable and prevents me from supporting them to the best of my ability.

+1

I teach middle school and ask building services to keep my room chilly for this reason.

That is really sad. And what is worse is that parents are okay sending their kids off like that making others feel inappropriate.

And who are we kidding. If it walks like a duck.....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see where our country is headed based on these loony responses. Let her wear a g-string to class, so long as she's comfortable!

smh

Nobody has said that.

Not exactly. But so much more importance seems to be placed on the will of the child rather than the greater good. Oh, mind your business, just listen to what the principal says! What BS.

What greater good?

How is anyone else's "greater good" served or harmed by what another person chooses to wear, exactly?

We live in a society - what other people do affects us, and what we do affects others.

Ok, sure, I can accept that as a valid general idea. But I'm honestly asking you not just for that description of a society, but also for a better understanding of HOW someone else's clothing choices are a problem for me in any way, or mine for them. I do not get that, but if I'm missing something obvious I would at least like to consider the idea to better inform my stance if nothing else. Can you explain to me HOW someone else's clothing impacts another person, or WHY I should care at all what anyone else wears?

For realz? Okay. I will use a work analogy.

If a man has a large penis (stay with me) and he chooses to wear extremely tight workout tights in a space he shares with me for 8 hours a day, that affects me. I would probably feel uncomfortable. It would be an uncomfortable subject to discuss, and the onus would be on me to bring it up - obviously, he is okay with his wardrobe choice, so I'd be the one stirring the pot. This could affect our relationship negatively - he could come to see me as a nag, or a prude, or as closed-minded. He might start gossiping about me, or undermining me on the job. It could go so many ways. But it all would have been prevented if, in the morning when choosing his clothes, he said to himself 'You know, I think I look great in these tights, and they are oh so comfortable. But I have a huge d*ck, and you can see the outline of the whole honking thing when I wear these tights - because I work in close proximity with someone who may not be comfortable seeing me in these, maybe I will choose pants that don't expose the outline of my genitalia.' It's courteous.

Young girls and boys may love certain articles of clothing, but that clothing may not be appropriate for all environments. If we are to encourage learning and healthy socialization at school, I don't think it's too much to expect that students, teachers, and anyone else in the school environment dresses in an appropriately sober manner.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Your perspective is very different from mine and thus very interesting to consider. That's not something that would make me uncomfortable or bother me in any way, and I'm not completely sure why it would for you, but of course my standards are not universal and it would be ideal if no one was made uncomfortable by someone else's actions. Thus, while philosophically I don't think clothing matters and believe everyone should be free to wear exactly what they wish with no problems or judgement, I can understand and concede the practical necessity for dress codes.

I think our difference of opinion stems from exactly how we think about people's bodies, privacy, and sexuality... your perspective seems quite traditional in our society whereas mine is anything but. I do not have the right to tell you what should or should not make you uncomfortable, so obviously the fact that a coworker in such an outfit would make you uncomfortable is in fact a problem. I appreciate the chance to understand your perspective, and I can see that this is a very complicated issue on which we're unlikely to agree completely. Thanks for the discussion!

I'm a victim of childhood sexual abuse and rape, and I'm sure this colors my perspective; I have issues with men, particularly men who exercise male privilege, or seem sexually aggressive. Others who've been in similar situations have different attitudes, of course. My attitude regarding any number of things is far from traditional - I consider myself politically and socially radical. In the instance posed by the OP, though, I think the booty shorts should be banned.

[Anonymous]

Wow....I can't believe some of the responses here. Lots of "parents" who don't want to take responsibility and actually teach their children appropriate dress--a sense of decorum that will help them land a job some day.

I thought most DCUMers were smarter than that. Some of you should move away to a nudist colony....you'd fit in better there than in mainstream American society. Seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

As adults, maybe they don't. But I do have a problem with my 12 year old son seeing body parts that our family values as being kept private put on display at his public school. I have no problem with sex and sexuality, but there are places where that needs to not be brought to the forefront, and school is one of those places for children.

Well, first, you're assuming that they are being "put on display". Maybe the people are dressing for your attention. But maybe they aren't.

And second, one of the things about public school is that you can't control what goes on there. You send your kid with your family's values, and everybody else sends their kids with their families' values.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow....I can't believe some of the responses here. Lots of "parents" who don't want to take responsibility and actually teach their children appropriate dress--a sense of decorum that will help them land a job some day.

I thought most DCUMers were smarter than that. Some of you should move away to a nudist colony....you'd fit in better there than in mainstream American society. Seriously.

I don't understand? I do talk to my children about their clothes. But unless you're my child's boss, or my child's principal/teacher/whoever enforces the school dress code, my child's clothes are none of your business.