If you are an atheist

[Anonymous]

The Qur'an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.”
Al- Quran 79:30

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat. Thus the Qur'an and modern established science are in perfect harmony.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the one who was talking about science. Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God.

I am a scientist. I believe that there is something sublime, and perhaps even divine in the natural world, the way systems work, the fragility of life. I am truly in awe. But I don't feel like I'm in awe of God, but of Nature as it does appear miraculous. I don't however, believe in any formalized religion- no Jesus, no saints, no mystics, just nature, amazing, beautiful, miraculous, and yes, divine.

And, as is nature's way, when I die, my body will decompose, provide nutrients to the earth and the living creatures- grass, soil, worms. The worm may go on to feed a bird, who goes on to feed a fox, which gives birth to a kit, etc etc. It's all part of a system.

I don't begrudge anybody their beliefs, but I find plenty of people who begrudge me for mine, and for raising non-religious children.

If you are a scientist, then how do you explain the scientific miracles in the Quran, that was revealed centuries before those were known to men?

So? Bruce Gibson predicted a lot of things about science and the current world we live in. That doesn't make Neuromancer a holy text.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the one who was talking about science. Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God.

I am a scientist. I believe that there is something sublime, and perhaps even divine in the natural world, the way systems work, the fragility of life. I am truly in awe. But I don't feel like I'm in awe of God, but of Nature as it does appear miraculous. I don't however, believe in any formalized religion- no Jesus, no saints, no mystics, just nature, amazing, beautiful, miraculous, and yes, divine.

And, as is nature's way, when I die, my body will decompose, provide nutrients to the earth and the living creatures- grass, soil, worms. The worm may go on to feed a bird, who goes on to feed a fox, which gives birth to a kit, etc etc. It's all part of a system.

I don't begrudge anybody their beliefs, but I find plenty of people who begrudge me for mine, and for raising non-religious children.

If you are a scientist, then how do you explain the scientific miracles in the Quran, that was revealed centuries before those were known to men?

So? Bruce Gibson predicted a lot of things about science and the current world we live in. That doesn't make Neuromancer a holy text.

William Gibson, not Bruce Gibson. My bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Wrong- 1) the quran doesnt say the earth is flat

2) the earth is not flat

3) It is impossible to describe the shape of the earth. It is not a sphere, it is from a the family of spheroid/ellipsoid so they invented a new word for it geo-spherical
That is due to translation, a lot is lost in translation when the quran is translated in english and then a lot of poeple scream outrage. The word used in 88:20 the word “suttihat” and the word “tahaaha” in 91:6, all may mean, “to spread”, “to expand” or “to extend” with slight differences in their connotations but none signify the earth being straight-shaped or flat.

Qur'an 88:20
???? ????? ??? ????

Wa-ila al-ardi kayfa sutihat
And at the Earth, how it is spread out?
Qur'an 88:20

Notice the word ??????? ? If you do a word search in an Arabic Qur'an text file you will find the word ???? , feminine for ???????

??????? = outspread , unfold , unroll , roll , lengthen , level , range , pave , pervade , circulate , grade , reach , even , level off , spread out , prostrate , plane , outstretch, flat , flatten , even , smoothen.

So why are people using FLAT to translate this verse?????? makes zero sense


spread out basically means that the earth has no end or no edge that you will fall over into space i.e. at all points on the surface of the earth, it is spread out in every direction you look. you can travel across the surface of the earth forever in any direction you want, but you will never hit an edge or wall to stop you from going further. The surface of the earth will always be spread out in all directions at any location on the earth whether you are on mount Everest or inside marina's trench. This indicate that the earth is rounded. any other shape in 3d would have an edge; like you would see the ground disappear and there would be space below. i still dont understand how spread out implies flat. Spread out means spread out. This is perhaps the most precise way of describing the shape of the earth without getting math involved. If Allah wanted to say flat He would have said just that (not carpet or spread out) and in that case the earth would have been flat!

Qu'ran 18:86. "Until he reached the place of the setting sun, he found it setting in a spring of dark mud, and found people about."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the purpose of God?

Why would God create people only if they acknowledge her/his existence and follow her/his teachings? Is that self-serving - to create some creatures only to pass judgment on them if they don't put you first?

Why are most religions beneficial to males and place females in the role of being subservient to males? What is the purpose of this?

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

When a Muslim addresses this topic, we have to find our understanding from Divine Revelation and not human speculation. Because human speculation has no bounds; we can imagine all kinds of things and if any of you has studied philosophy of religion, you will know how many opinions there are about the creation of man and existence. Because of the variety of philosophies which are out there, no one can say this one is correct or that one is incorrect, because there is no guidance behind it. No Divine Revelation. It is only from Divine Revelation that we can determine the reality of our creation, because it is Allah who has created us and so He knows the purpose of our creation. We can hardly understand it ourselves, much less trying to understand the essence of things. So it is for Allah to inform us through the revelation in the Qur'an and the sunnah (the Prophetic traditions) which were brought to us by His Last Messenger and the Messengers before him.

Now if we are to look initially into revelation, to determine why was man created, there is a deeper question that we should be asking before that: "Why did God create?" This before we even get to man because man is not the greatest act of creation. Allah says:

"The creation of the Heavens and the Earth is indeed greater then the creation of mankind; yet, most of mankind know not."
[Al-Qur'an 40:57]
Man is not the greatest act of creation, this universe is far more complex and far more magnificent than man. So the issue of creation should then go to, "Why did God create?", as opposed to simply, "Why create man?"

Fundamentally, we can say that the creation is the natural consequence of the attribute of creator. Allah is the creator. That is one of his attributes. That is what he has informed us. That being his attribute, the creator, the natural consequence or the product of this attribute is his creation.

A painter, if we are to draw a similitude on a lower level, who tells you that he is a painter, if you ask him where are his paintings and he replies I don't have any. What kind of painter is this? The concept of a painter who doesn't paint, there is some thing not quite gelling together here, of course Allah is beyond this. But if we are to understand on the simplest level, the two go together. The perfection of a painter lies in his paintings. His quality and his ability to paint, is manifest in his paintings. And Allah, beyond all that, as creator, this quality of creation is manifest in the creation itself. Allah didn't create out of a need. No, the fact that he is the creator, is manifest in the creation.

Furthermore, consider the act of creation, this act, with regards to Allah is unique. Though we use the term i.e. So and so created a table etc, actually it is in a limited sense. Human beings don't really create, they manipulate, because they can only "create" what already exists. When we make a chair or a table, we didn't create the wood, we had to take it from a tree, we didn't create the metal, which makes the screws etc, we had to melt down rocks and take the metal out. So we are not creating from nothing. We are manipulating things which Allah has already created in to different shapes and forms which are useful to us. We call it "creation" but the real act of creation, is creation from nothing, and this is unique to Allah alone.

Therefore when we look for the purpose of worship, we have to look into man. Allah created us to worship him, because we need to worship him. It is something he has given us as a means of benefiting ourselves. We are the ones who benefit from it. Worship has been established, fundamentally for the growth, the spiritual growth of man. This growth takes place through the remembrance of Allah. When you look at all the different aspects of worship, you will see the core of it is focused on the remembrance of Allah.

"Establish the prayer for My remembrance."


Worship is there for us to remember Allah. And it is in the remembrance of Allah, that we achieve that consciousness. Because it is when we forget Allah, that Shaytan causes us to disobey Allah and fall into sin. So it is only in His remembrance that we can attain salvation. All of the various acts of worship from saying "Bismillah" when we eat is to help us remember Allah in order to grow spiritually.

Allah has said that he has created us to test us, to see which of us is best in deeds. He is not testing us to know, in the sense that he doesn't already know, but this world is a test for us in order again that we can grow spiritually.

We cannot develop this spiritual characteristic of generosity unless some of us have more then others and then we are required to give of the wealth we have. When we give, we grow. Similarly, if we were not in a position where others had more then us then we wouldn't have the ability to develop the higher spiritual quality of contentment, patience, satisfaction in what Allah has given us.

So it is all there in order to bring out the higher spiritual qualities, which enable us to attain the state, which makes us suitable and eligible to return to paradise. The paradise from which we were created, we were created in paradise and for paradise. Through our choices we have left, in this life, a field of testing, where we can grow to a state where we deserve paradise.

I'm an atheist who was raised Muslim. PP, how do you explain 4:34?

What do you mean by 4:34?

Do you know the verse? Look it up. How do you explain it? Do you really think god mandated that husbands hit their wives to keep them in line? If so, how do you rationalize it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The Qur'an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.”
Al- Quran 79:30

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat. Thus the Qur'an and modern established science are in perfect harmony.

It's funny. A quick Google turns up several translations if 79:30, but all of these translations use the word "flat" or variants thereof, not
"egg-shaped." Try this Muslim source, for example: http://Quran.com/79/30 which says "flat." Or other sources that look to be Islamic, like www.islamawakened.com/Quran/79/30/default.htm which translates this as, "and the earth, he expanded after that." I'm wondering how a single word could mean both "flat" and "egg-shaped" and why Muslim translators generally go with "flat" or variants like "extended."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

When a Muslim addresses this topic, we have to find our understanding from Divine Revelation and not human speculation. Because human ....

I think some of this may be a little unfair. As part of my continuing effort to question my own belief, I have read the Qu'ran cover to cover. One of the issues I had is that some of the more difficult passages must be accepted with question precisely because they are seen as infallible revelations. For this and other reasons I choose to stay in my patents' faith, but this has not been without inquiry on my part.

1. Leaving children of Muslim parents out of your "blind faith" equation involving Christians and Hindus.... No words.
2. I'm sure several of us could quote "divine revelation" in the Koran about what to do to polytheists like the Hindus. You really don't want to go there, you really don't.

1- Children of Muslim Parents are also part of that equation, the same thing applies to them.
2- Go ahead and quote whatever you want, I really do not care just like anyone can quote the bible and any other religious book for that matter about what they would do to non-believers. So again, your point it? And why are you so angry? Relax, take a deep breath, this is not a fight....

I'm not angry, and I think you're mistaking me with the emoticon-using poster above.

You imply I have no point, that I'm merely venting my anger. I was trying to be gentle, but you want me to spell it out. My point is that it's hard to see a book as divinely revealed when it urges followers in no uncertain terms to kill Hindus. (Koran 9:5, "Kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and beseige them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.") Treatment of Christians and Jews (People of the Book) varies greatly in verses that vary by the context of the Muslims' relations to these other tribes on the particular day the verse was revealed, but in some verses the treatment is dire indeed. Again, my point is that claiming these words are God's own words is not as convincing as you were arguing above.

You go on to disparage other religions as "speculation that has no limits" which is untrue. Many religions are in fact based on sacred texts that are taken literally in some cases, and seen as divinely-inspired in other cases.

Woow, what a huge leap!!!! Where did I disparage other religions???? In what part of "human speculation" did you get religion? the word religion was not even mentioned there? Do not put words in my mouth, and yes you do sound angry and I have no reason why. Where did i write OTHER RELIGIONS= SPECULATION??? just show me? smh

Now, when you do quote the Quran, please do your research first about what the verse is about instead of quoting blindly, every verse in the quran was revealed for a specific purpose at a specific time, it is just not a storybook. Every verse in the Qur’an must be read and interpreted against the background of the Qur'an as a whole. This is essential if we are to get a more accurate understanding of the Qur’an.

So lets look at the verse you've quoted here:

9:5 Kill the disbelievers wherever you find them.

This verse, often called “the verse of the sword”, has been misquoted in a manner similar to the previous verses. First, we shall provide the verse in its context and look at the verse that comes right after it, instead of just taking one verse and ignoring the context like this makes sense out of context :

9:5-6 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. "


This verse was revealed towards the end of the revelation period and relates to a limited context. Hostilities were frozen for a three-month period during which the Arabs pledged not to wage war. Prophet Muhammad was inspired to use this period to encourage the combatants to join the Muslim ranks or, if they chose, to leave the area that was under Muslims rule; however, if they were to resume hostilities, then the Muslims would fight back until victorious. One is inspired to note that even in this context of war, the verse concludes by emphasizing the divine attributes of mercy and forgiveness. To minimize hostilities, the Qur’an ordered Muslims to grant asylum to anyone, even an enemy, who sought refuge. Asylum would be granted according to the customs of chivalry; the person would be told the message of the Qur’an but not coerced into accepting that message. Thereafter, he or she would be escorted to safety regardless of his or her religion. (9:6).
Therefore, this verse once again refers to those pagans who would continue to fight after the period of peace. It clearly commands the Muslims to protect those who seek peace and are non-combatants. It is a specific verse with a specific ruling and can in no way be applied to general situations. The command of the verse was only to be applied in the event of a battle. As Abdullah Yusuf Ali writes:

The emphasis is on the first clause: it is only when the four months of grace are past, and the other party show no sign of desisting from their treacherous design by right conduct, that the state of war supervenes - between Faith and Unfaith.

This verse is quoted during a battle. ...We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: “Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them”. Today if I say that the American President said, “Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them” without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war. ...Similarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, “Kill the Mushriqs (pagans) where ever you find them”, during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.

Now if you look at CHAPTER9 of the Quran as a whole, this chapter of the Qur’an was revealed in the context when the newly organized Muslim society in Madinah was engaged in defending themselves against the pagan aggressors. The major question dealt with here is, as to how the Muslims should treat those who break an existing treaty at will. The first clause in the verse refers to the time-honored Arab custom of a period of warning and waiting given to the offenders, after a clear violation. That is, they will be given four months’ time to repair the damage done or make peace. But if nothing happens after the expiry of these forbidden months, what should be done? This is what the present verse says. According to this verse, fighting must be resumed until one of the two things happens: Either the enemy should be vanquished by relentless fighting. That is what is meant by {then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem [of war]}; or they should repent, establish prayers and pay zakah, etc. This is one of those verses of the Qur’an which are likely to be misunderstood, if quoted out of context. We must understand that this fighting was against a people who forced the Prophet and his companions to leave not only their own homes but all their property and even their hometown of Makkah to Madinah. Once the Muslims were organized into a community in those lawless times, the rules to be followed by the Muslims were clearly laid down, even in the matter of war. Since Islam is a comprehensive system, no human activity could be ignored. And given the nature of mankind, we cannot imagine a situation where fighting is completely ruled out either. As can be seen, the above injunctions on fighting is not on an individual level, but only in the case of a society that strives to flourish and thrive as a nation. But even here the norms are clear: fighting is only in self defence or for the establishment of justice; and always fighting is the last option. And no one is allowed to transgress the limits set by God.

Now, you and I both now there are very violent verses in the Bible, actually the BIBLE has been proven to be MORE VIOLENT than the Qu'ran, but I have no interest in quoting those bible verses because I know that everything was revealed in a context at a different time. I kinda use my brain....sometimes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The Qur'an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.”
Al- Quran 79:30

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat. Thus the Qur'an and modern established science are in perfect harmony.

It's funny. A quick Google turns up several translations if 79:30, but all of these translations use the word "flat" or variants thereof, not
"egg-shaped." Try this Muslim source, for example: http://Quran.com/79/30 which says "flat." Or other sources that look to be Islamic, like www.islamawakened.com/Quran/79/30/default.htm which translates this as, "and the earth, he expanded after that." I'm wondering how a single word could mean both "flat" and "egg-shaped" and why Muslim translators generally go with "flat" or variants like "extended."

Who has translated that? Do you speak arabic, and really Google is now the authority on this lol. ANYONE can translate anything on Google, now how about you go to a Christian or Atheist Arabic speaker who has no dogs in this fight and ask him/her what that Word means in Arabic? You can get 100 translated Qurans and get 100 different words, that is why muslims recite the Quran in its original form which is ARABIC, the arabic language is so complex that whenever you translate it a lot is lost in translation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don't you fucking roll your eyes at me. Seriously, don't you do it.

I'm sorry I confused the pp with one of the atheists -- but I find it funny when atheists loudly proclaim their rejection of Him but then turn around and profess to have insight into what He believes.

You don't know anything about me. You called me un-Christian and an intolerant hypocrite. Based on what? A perfectly logical observation? Look, I'm sure this cognitive dissonance must be hard for you, but seriously, shut the fuck up, stop posting. And don't roll your fucking eyes at me.

Being on the Internet must be unimaginably difficult for you, what with your sizable control issues.



As far as atheists proclaiming their rejection of gods and such, then professing to have insight into what said gods believe, that seems perfectly reasonable. If I ran into someone who claimed to worship Huck Finn, I would think that was crazy, but even crazier would be if they claimed some special insight into the mind of Huck Finn that is inaccessible to those who merely read the book. Anyone can read the Bible.

What I find funny is when Christian literalists somehow imagine that any adult human who has read the Bible is incapable of understanding the plain words written therein because they don't have "faith". Is it like belief in Tinkerbell where you have to clap really, really hard before the light comes on?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The Qur'an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.”
Al- Quran 79:30

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat. Thus the Qur'an and modern established science are in perfect harmony.

The fact that the earth is not flat has been known for thousands of years. The Ancient Greeks Pythagoras (570 - 495 BC), Aristotle (384 - 322 BC) and Hipparchus (190 - 120 BC) all knew this. The Indian astronomer and mathematician, Aryabhata (476 - 550 AD) knew this. And so did the early Christian scholars Anicius Boëthius (480 - 524 AD), Bishop Isidore of Seville (560 - 636 AD), Bishop Rabanus Maurus (780 - 856 AD), the monk Bede (672 - 735 AD), Bishop Vergilius of Salzburg (700 - 784 AD) and Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274 AD). In fact, contrary to what we are often told, the sphericity of the earth was common knowledge among early medieval Europeans[2] and the Holy Roman Empire from as early as 395 AD used an orb to represent the spherical Earth.[3]

[Anonymous]

OK 9:42. I am going to be your friend here. You need to step away and take a break from this.

You definitely implied that Islam is superior to other religions because it's divinely revealed while other religions are based on speculation. You can't interpret away what you already said.

Likewise, nobody is impressed by long cut-and-pastes about how, when Mohammad was consolidating his takeover of Medina, he gave the iriginal residents there, the ones who refused to accept him and Islam, several months to make an unpalatable choice between conversion, fleeing, death in battle, or slavery. Yes, slavery was the outcome for people lost a battle against Mohammed, unless they converted to Islam in which case they could go free, and this is actually alluded to in your long quote above.

Likewise, it's hard to accept creative translations that turn "flat" into "egg-shaped."

We're all waiting for you to even acknowledge another PP's point about wife-beating.

Please, help yourself out here, and don't dig deeper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The Qur'an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.”
Al- Quran 79:30

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat. Thus the Qur'an and modern established science are in perfect harmony.

It's funny. A quick Google turns up several translations if 79:30, but all of these translations use the word "flat" or variants thereof, not
"egg-shaped." Try this Muslim source, for example: http://Quran.com/79/30 which says "flat." Or other sources that look to be Islamic, like www.islamawakened.com/Quran/79/30/default.htm which translates this as, "and the earth, he expanded after that." I'm wondering how a single word could mean both "flat" and "egg-shaped" and why Muslim translators generally go with "flat" or variants like "extended."

Who has translated that? Do you speak arabic, and really Google is now the authority on this lol. ANYONE can translate anything on Google, now how about you go to a Christian or Atheist Arabic speaker who has no dogs in this fight and ask him/her what that Word means in Arabic? You can get 100 translated Qurans and get 100 different words, that is why muslims recite the Quran in its original form which is ARABIC, the arabic language is so complex that whenever you translate it a lot is lost in translation

These are MUSLIM sources. MUSLIMS did the translations. Go to the links yourself and check. In turn, could you please give a source got "egg-shaped"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the purpose of God?

Why would God create people only if they acknowledge her/his existence and follow her/his teachings? Is that self-serving - to create some creatures only to pass judgment on them if they don't put you first?

Why are most religions beneficial to males and place females in the role of being subservient to males? What is the purpose of this?

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

When a Muslim addresses this topic, we have to find our understanding from Divine Revelation and not human speculation. Because human speculation has no bounds; we can imagine all kinds of things and if any of you has studied philosophy of religion, you will know how many opinions there are about the creation of man and existence. Because of the variety of philosophies which are out there, no one can say this one is correct or that one is incorrect, because there is no guidance behind it. No Divine Revelation. It is only from Divine Revelation that we can determine the reality of our creation, because it is Allah who has created us and so He knows the purpose of our creation. We can hardly understand it ourselves, much less trying to understand the essence of things. So it is for Allah to inform us through the revelation in the Qur'an and the sunnah (the Prophetic traditions) which were brought to us by His Last Messenger and the Messengers before him.

Now if we are to look initially into revelation, to determine why was man created, there is a deeper question that we should be asking before that: "Why did God create?" This before we even get to man because man is not the greatest act of creation. Allah says:

"The creation of the Heavens and the Earth is indeed greater then the creation of mankind; yet, most of mankind know not."
[Al-Qur'an 40:57]
Man is not the greatest act of creation, this universe is far more complex and far more magnificent than man. So the issue of creation should then go to, "Why did God create?", as opposed to simply, "Why create man?"

Fundamentally, we can say that the creation is the natural consequence of the attribute of creator. Allah is the creator. That is one of his attributes. That is what he has informed us. That being his attribute, the creator, the natural consequence or the product of this attribute is his creation.

A painter, if we are to draw a similitude on a lower level, who tells you that he is a painter, if you ask him where are his paintings and he replies I don't have any. What kind of painter is this? The concept of a painter who doesn't paint, there is some thing not quite gelling together here, of course Allah is beyond this. But if we are to understand on the simplest level, the two go together. The perfection of a painter lies in his paintings. His quality and his ability to paint, is manifest in his paintings. And Allah, beyond all that, as creator, this quality of creation is manifest in the creation itself. Allah didn't create out of a need. No, the fact that he is the creator, is manifest in the creation.

Furthermore, consider the act of creation, this act, with regards to Allah is unique. Though we use the term i.e. So and so created a table etc, actually it is in a limited sense. Human beings don't really create, they manipulate, because they can only "create" what already exists. When we make a chair or a table, we didn't create the wood, we had to take it from a tree, we didn't create the metal, which makes the screws etc, we had to melt down rocks and take the metal out. So we are not creating from nothing. We are manipulating things which Allah has already created in to different shapes and forms which are useful to us. We call it "creation" but the real act of creation, is creation from nothing, and this is unique to Allah alone.

Therefore when we look for the purpose of worship, we have to look into man. Allah created us to worship him, because we need to worship him. It is something he has given us as a means of benefiting ourselves. We are the ones who benefit from it. Worship has been established, fundamentally for the growth, the spiritual growth of man. This growth takes place through the remembrance of Allah. When you look at all the different aspects of worship, you will see the core of it is focused on the remembrance of Allah.

"Establish the prayer for My remembrance."


Worship is there for us to remember Allah. And it is in the remembrance of Allah, that we achieve that consciousness. Because it is when we forget Allah, that Shaytan causes us to disobey Allah and fall into sin. So it is only in His remembrance that we can attain salvation. All of the various acts of worship from saying "Bismillah" when we eat is to help us remember Allah in order to grow spiritually.

Allah has said that he has created us to test us, to see which of us is best in deeds. He is not testing us to know, in the sense that he doesn't already know, but this world is a test for us in order again that we can grow spiritually.

We cannot develop this spiritual characteristic of generosity unless some of us have more then others and then we are required to give of the wealth we have. When we give, we grow. Similarly, if we were not in a position where others had more then us then we wouldn't have the ability to develop the higher spiritual quality of contentment, patience, satisfaction in what Allah has given us.

So it is all there in order to bring out the higher spiritual qualities, which enable us to attain the state, which makes us suitable and eligible to return to paradise. The paradise from which we were created, we were created in paradise and for paradise. Through our choices we have left, in this life, a field of testing, where we can grow to a state where we deserve paradise.

I'm an atheist who was raised Muslim. PP, how do you explain 4:34?

What do you mean by 4:34?

Do you know the verse? Look it up. How do you explain it? Do you really think god mandated that husbands hit their wives to keep them in line? If so, how do you rationalize it?

I did not know you were referring to a verse, I thought you were referring to a previous post lol. Ah the famous quranic verse that nonmuslims love. LOL Again, the word DARABA. Open the 10th reading of Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, a 3,064-page volume from the 19th century.Among the six pages of definitions for daraba, one of them is "to go away.". So my question to you is, why do people use whatever word they like when they translate the Quran? That's what is shocking to me. the "beat" translation contradicts another verse, which states that if a woman wants a divorce, she should not be mistreated. Given the option of staying in the marriage and being beaten, or divorcing, women would obviously leave. When the prophet had difficulty with his wives, what did he do? He didn't beat anybody, so why would any Muslim do what the prophet did not?" And I am a WOMAN, I am MUSLIM, I would never follow a religion that was detrimental to my essence as a woman!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the purpose of God?

Why would God create people only if they acknowledge her/his existence and follow her/his teachings? Is that self-serving - to create some creatures only to pass judgment on them if they don't put you first?

Why are most religions beneficial to males and place females in the role of being subservient to males? What is the purpose of this?

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

When a Muslim addresses this topic, we have to find our understanding from Divine Revelation and not human speculation. Because human speculation has no bounds; we can imagine all kinds of things and if any of you has studied philosophy of religion, you will know how many opinions there are about the creation of man and existence. Because of the variety of philosophies which are out there, no one can say this one is correct or that one is incorrect, because there is no guidance behind it. No Divine Revelation. It is only from Divine Revelation that we can determine the reality of our creation, because it is Allah who has created us and so He knows the purpose of our creation. We can hardly understand it ourselves, much less trying to understand the essence of things. So it is for Allah to inform us through the revelation in the Qur'an and the sunnah (the Prophetic traditions) which were brought to us by His Last Messenger and the Messengers before him.

Now if we are to look initially into revelation, to determine why was man created, there is a deeper question that we should be asking before that: "Why did God create?" This before we even get to man because man is not the greatest act of creation. Allah says:

"The creation of the Heavens and the Earth is indeed greater then the creation of mankind; yet, most of mankind know not."
[Al-Qur'an 40:57]
Man is not the greatest act of creation, this universe is far more complex and far more magnificent than man. So the issue of creation should then go to, "Why did God create?", as opposed to simply, "Why create man?"

Fundamentally, we can say that the creation is the natural consequence of the attribute of creator. Allah is the creator. That is one of his attributes. That is what he has informed us. That being his attribute, the creator, the natural consequence or the product of this attribute is his creation.

A painter, if we are to draw a similitude on a lower level, who tells you that he is a painter, if you ask him where are his paintings and he replies I don't have any. What kind of painter is this? The concept of a painter who doesn't paint, there is some thing not quite gelling together here, of course Allah is beyond this. But if we are to understand on the simplest level, the two go together. The perfection of a painter lies in his paintings. His quality and his ability to paint, is manifest in his paintings. And Allah, beyond all that, as creator, this quality of creation is manifest in the creation itself. Allah didn't create out of a need. No, the fact that he is the creator, is manifest in the creation.

Furthermore, consider the act of creation, this act, with regards to Allah is unique. Though we use the term i.e. So and so created a table etc, actually it is in a limited sense. Human beings don't really create, they manipulate, because they can only "create" what already exists. When we make a chair or a table, we didn't create the wood, we had to take it from a tree, we didn't create the metal, which makes the screws etc, we had to melt down rocks and take the metal out. So we are not creating from nothing. We are manipulating things which Allah has already created in to different shapes and forms which are useful to us. We call it "creation" but the real act of creation, is creation from nothing, and this is unique to Allah alone.

Therefore when we look for the purpose of worship, we have to look into man. Allah created us to worship him, because we need to worship him. It is something he has given us as a means of benefiting ourselves. We are the ones who benefit from it. Worship has been established, fundamentally for the growth, the spiritual growth of man. This growth takes place through the remembrance of Allah. When you look at all the different aspects of worship, you will see the core of it is focused on the remembrance of Allah.

"Establish the prayer for My remembrance."


Worship is there for us to remember Allah. And it is in the remembrance of Allah, that we achieve that consciousness. Because it is when we forget Allah, that Shaytan causes us to disobey Allah and fall into sin. So it is only in His remembrance that we can attain salvation. All of the various acts of worship from saying "Bismillah" when we eat is to help us remember Allah in order to grow spiritually.

Allah has said that he has created us to test us, to see which of us is best in deeds. He is not testing us to know, in the sense that he doesn't already know, but this world is a test for us in order again that we can grow spiritually.

We cannot develop this spiritual characteristic of generosity unless some of us have more then others and then we are required to give of the wealth we have. When we give, we grow. Similarly, if we were not in a position where others had more then us then we wouldn't have the ability to develop the higher spiritual quality of contentment, patience, satisfaction in what Allah has given us.

So it is all there in order to bring out the higher spiritual qualities, which enable us to attain the state, which makes us suitable and eligible to return to paradise. The paradise from which we were created, we were created in paradise and for paradise. Through our choices we have left, in this life, a field of testing, where we can grow to a state where we deserve paradise.

I'm an atheist who was raised Muslim. PP, how do you explain 4:34?

What do you mean by 4:34?

Do you know the verse? Look it up. How do you explain it? Do you really think god mandated that husbands hit their wives to keep them in line? If so, how do you rationalize it?

I did not know you were referring to a verse, I thought you were referring to a previous post lol. Ah the famous quranic verse that nonmuslims love. LOL Again, the word DARABA. Open the 10th reading of Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, a 3,064-page volume from the 19th century.Among the six pages of definitions for daraba, one of them is "to go away.". So my question to you is, why do people use whatever word they like when they translate the Quran? That's what is shocking to me. the "beat" translation contradicts another verse, which states that if a woman wants a divorce, she should not be mistreated. Given the option of staying in the marriage and being beaten, or divorcing, women would obviously leave. When the prophet had difficulty with his wives, what did he do? He didn't beat anybody, so why would any Muslim do what the prophet did not?" And I am a WOMAN, I am MUSLIM, I would never follow a religion that was detrimental to my essence as a woman!

Please cut it out with the "non-muslims" bullshit. This is a verse in the Quran and is for the reading by anyone. I was raised Muslim - I know the verse well, and there is no justifying it - in fact, many Quranic scholars have outright claimed that the verse is not authentic and was added later, because there simply is no explaining it. What's your take? Do you think the verse is divinely given, or was added by humans?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The Qur'an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.”
Al- Quran 79:30

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat. Thus the Qur'an and modern established science are in perfect harmony.

It's funny. A quick Google turns up several translations if 79:30, but all of these translations use the word "flat" or variants thereof, not
"egg-shaped." Try this Muslim source, for example: http://Quran.com/79/30 which says "flat." Or other sources that look to be Islamic, like www.islamawakened.com/Quran/79/30/default.htm which translates this as, "and the earth, he expanded after that." I'm wondering how a single word could mean both "flat" and "egg-shaped" and why Muslim translators generally go with "flat" or variants like "extended."

Who has translated that? Do you speak arabic, and really Google is now the authority on this lol. ANYONE can translate anything on Google, now how about you go to a Christian or Atheist Arabic speaker who has no dogs in this fight and ask him/her what that Word means in Arabic? You can get 100 translated Qurans and get 100 different words, that is why muslims recite the Quran in its original form which is ARABIC, the arabic language is so complex that whenever you translate it a lot is lost in translation

These are MUSLIM sources. MUSLIMS did the translations. Go to the links yourself and check. In turn, could you please give a source got "egg-shaped"?

I just cliked on the link you gave and it says SPREAD,so where are you getting flat from? egg-shaped is from the arabic itself , the meaning of the word For dahâ means to "shape like an egg", its noun being dahiyah, which the Arabs still use to mean an egg. The same word can also mean spread out, and this is why i said, you have to understand the arabic word. Westerners who have written translation books on english-arabic will give you pages and pages of translation for one arabic word, it is not as simple as some make it seem. You can read this if you want about the egg-shape translation http://turntoislam.com/community/threads/egg.19312/